EuphoriaStrides's page

Wanted to hop in and say that, as the official rules source, aonprd is preferred to d20pfsrd.

It was a Core Rule Book errata from several years ago that Paizo has never edited into the PRD.

"Page 99—In the Intimidate skill, add the following
sentence after the first sentence of the Demoralize
paragraph:

This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken
conditions to make an affected creature frightened."

It never made it into the PRD because it's not in the Core Rulebooks. Even if at one time proposed as errata, Paizo made the decision to not include it in later printings The 6th (and most recent as of 2013) printing of the Core Rulebook has had this change removed, so that it clearly reads:

Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

Cut and dry: That line is incorrect on the d20pfsrd; you can stack the shaken from demoralize with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. That is the general rule and there are no specific exceptions, so it is in use.

If you're interested in some history, this line was first discussed by Joshua J. Frost and Jason Bulmahn in 2009. You can find that here. Primary sources are since removed; thanks Paizo.

Specifically, Frost and Bulmahn both agreed that demoralize would not stack with itself, only extending the duration.
Note: This line made it into the core rulebook.

Someone then asked if that meant demoralize-shaken couldn't be upgrade by other sources of fear, which Frost (and not Bulmahn) agreed to.
Note: This is NOT in the core rulebook.

Necroing to ask the obvious:

Why did anyone ever think this is allowed in the core rules?

The Bestiary explicitly states, under Adding Racial Hit Dice,

As a general rule, creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size, but GMs should feel free to ignore this rule if warranted by the individual creature or situation.

Of course, while there are explicit rules on how to add a size increase to Golems to allow for further HD,

Note:The market price of a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die it possesses beyond the standard for its kind, and increases by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. Building a golem with the advanced simple template increases its cost by 15,000 gp.

There are no rules that allow Homunculi to increase in size in the Core Rulebooks. This effectively caps Homunculi at 3 HD based solely on the information found in the Bestiary, barring GM fiat.

Or, alternatively, you interpret the lack of a cost of a size increase to mean it is both a) possible and b) free (which is generous and much more broadly exploitable). In this case, a Homunculi would be able to exist at the following HD ranges,
2-3 HD Tiny
3-4 HD Small
4-6 HD Medium
6-9 HD Large
9-13 HD Huge
13-19 HD Gargantuan
19-28 HD Colossal.

If you're nonetheless unconvinced, then for your benefit note that there is an equivalency in rulings between Golems and Homunculi: Neither state a HD cap in their entry and it only costs 2,500 gp to increase Golem HD (5,000 price increase means 2,500 cost increase).

I am uninterested in doing the math, but there may be an ideal price for upgraded Golems compared against Homunculi.

Just perusing some more material. LODO from "The Dragon's Demand" is a 4HD Homunculus. So 3HD is definitely not the limit. (also has 2 feats and skills, so they get those too it seems)

Just Necroing to note that Lodo is noted as a "unique homunculus" with 4 HD that is small size. A normal Homunculus has 2 HD and is tiny.

They are abiding by the rules under "Adding Racial Hit Dice" in Bestiary 1, which states,

As a general rule, creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size, but GMs should feel free to ignore this rule if warranted by the individual creature or situation.

Which is repeated in Ultimate Magic under Construct Modifications,

Because a construct’s size is limited, a Hit Dice modification cannot increase its size. Therefore Hit Dice modification can never increase the base construct’s Hit Dice beyond 50% of its total HD.

The Tiny Construct is allowed to reach 3 HD, but to reach 4 HD the Construct must become Small, which we see is what happened with LODO. Following this pattern, the Homunculi would max out at

If the 50% rule refers to original HD, then the caps are smaller:
3 HD for Tiny, 4 HD for Small, 5 HD for Medium, 6 HD for Large, 7 HD for Huge, 8 HD for Gargantuan, and 9 HD for Colossal Homunculi.

Of course, there is no listed way to increase a Homunculus's Hit Dice, (unlike Golems, which cost 50,000 gp to increase size,) so there is no way to create Lodo without being a GM. Luckily, the writers of the Module aren't players.

I am going with first and first.

I suppose I was a little hesitant to go with this ruling, because it seems like the intention that the black blade is essentially a sentient magic item provided by a class feature. If it is really entirely an Ex ability, then it is a boon to a magus, as they basically get to use a magic weapon in an antimagic field. But it might only be Ex (rather than Su) so that it doesn't go poof in an antimagic field, leaving the bladebound magus without their main (only?) weapon.

Are there any sources that support this?

Enhancement bonuses are magical as would be any special weapon properties, so the black blade would lose them if in antimagic or if dispel magic is successfully used on it.

Well, a difficulty here is that enhancement bonuses aren't necessarily magical, nor do either antimagic field or dispel magic explicitly strip away enhancement bonuses. They turn magical weapons non-magical, and in fact, they leave magic weapons masterwork, which provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attack. So my conflict is that if this black blade is an Ex ability that gains enhancement bonuses as an extension of the Ex ability, it wouldn't lose those bonuses.

Any other abilities listed as supernatural or magical would also be suppressed in antimagic.

I 100% agree. There's no other reason for the designers to have specified that these additional abilities are Ex, Su, and Sp as appropriate if not for them to be suppressed depending on the circumstance.

I look at it this way, if a non-sentient item was hit by these, what would happen? Anything magical, supernatural is suppressed (as appropriate for antimagic or dispel). This still happens to the black blade.

Yeah, that was my difficulty: in what ways are sentient items different from magic items (which would be affected as you described above), and in which additional ways are black blades different from sentient items (as black blades are presented as an Ex class feature).

Something that complicated my understanding is that the Blade Adept archetype for Arcanists provides a feature that functions and advances "as a black blade" except that it is a Supernatural ability. This would more explicitly lose all abilities in antimagic.

But it's an intelligent item and creature, and that isn't suppressed as these are extraordinary qualities of the creature. Just like a construct isn't affected by antimagic or dispel magic, neither is the black blade in terms of sentient or "basic abilities".

But oh! I hadn't attributed the mental stats or basic abilities of the black blade to it's creature-hood. But it's exactly in these ways that a sentient item is different from a magic item, so it makes sense that these would be the abilities of the construct portion of a sentient item. Dispel magic was tripping me up (as it doesn't explicitly mention construct - as in antimagic field), but it makes sense that dispel magic would no more strip away a sentient item's sentience than it would lobotomize a golem coming your way.

Hey folks,
I'm a little confused about how the Black Blade from the Bladebound Magus Archetype - and perhaps intelligent items in general - work in relation to things like Dispel Magic and an Antimagic Field.

Namely, how much is a black blade hampered by these spells, if at all?
To what degree is a Black Blade “Magic”?
Or, phrased differently, is the Black Blade an evolving magic item granted by the Black Blade(Ex) class feature, or is the Black Blade itself an Ex ability which resembles an intelligent magic item?

Let’s start with relevant rules:

1) Special Abilities: Extraordinary Abilities (Ex) are nonmagical, unaffected by dispel magic, spell resistance, and antimagic fields. Supernatural Abilities (Su) are magical but not spell-like. They are unaffected by dispel magic and spell resistance, but don’t function in antimagic areas. Spell-like Abilities (Sp) are affected by spell resistance, can be dispelled (although not counterspelled), and don’t function in antimagic areas. Lastly, Natural Abilities are those not otherwise designated as Ex, Su, or Sp, and are instead abilities a creature has because of its form.

2)The Black Blade: the Black Blade is an Ex class feature for a bladebound magus. Its mental stats, ego, languages and skills, sense, and arcane pool are listed under “Black Blade Basics.” It is an Intelligent Item with its own abilities, including Ex, Su, and Sp abilities. The Enhancement Bonus of the Black Blade is included in a table titled Black Blade Progression (alongside many other special and basic abilities). It is not described as magic (though this is perhaps meaningless).

3)Intelligent items: Intelligent items are described as a subcategorization of magic items. They can be considered creatures and are to be treated as constructs.

4) Spell Resistance and implications: A relevant line here is “Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not.” This seems to imply that enhancement bonuses are supernatural abilities. Or perhaps this is saying that enhancement bonuses are additionally unaffected by spell resistance, but the current grammatical construction does not support that. As dispel magic and antimagic fields target magic items regardless, this might just be a meaningless distinction for this discussion.

5) Dispel Magic: Dispel Magic can end ongoing spell effects, counterspell, or suppress magic abilities of magic items. Specifically, “A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact).” Caster level checks are made to dispel effects or supress magic abilities.

6) Antimagic Field: Antimagic prevents spells, Sp, Su, and prevents the functioning of magic items inside. Notably, “while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that).” However, “The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field.”

Okay, let’s put that all together.
Which of the following rulings are correct RAW?

For Antimagic Field:

 The Black Blade is itself an Extraordinary ability (Ex) so it is unaffected and retains all its basic qualities, including sentience, senses, and enhancement bonus. Each of its own abilities, e.g.: Alertness, Telepathy, etc. are dealt with case by case. The black Blade only keeps Ex abilities.

 The Black Blade is a construct which is unaffected by the field and retains all its basic qualities, including sentience and sense. The enhancement bonus is removed as it is a Su ability. Each of its own abilities, e.g.: Alertness, Telepathy, etc. are dealt with as above.

 The Black Blade is a magic item and does not function inside the antimagic field except as a masterwork sword.

For Dispel Magic:

 The Black Blade is an Extraordinary ability (Ex) so it is unaffected and retains all its basic qualities, including sentience, senses, and enhancement bonus. Each of its own abilities, e.g.: Alertness, Telepathy, etc. are dealt with case by case. The black Blade keeps Ex and Su abilities.

 The Black Blade is a magic item, and with a successful caster level check (what’s the caster level for the Black Blade?) all of its magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds. In this case, What is suppressed?
••The Black Blade’s basic abilities (including sentience, senses, etc.)?
••The enhancement bonus? (Quite possibly yes.)
••All special abilities?
••Just Spell-like special abilities?

Thanks for taking the time everyone.