Do undead dream?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hi y'all,

So, yeah... In the PF2 system, do undead dream? Or, if the rules don't state one way or another, do you think undead dream - why or why not?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

They dream of electric sheep, of course.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The undead trait (per the GameMastery Guide page 71) includes Immunity to "Sleep (or Unconscious if never rests at all)."

So it seems the default answer is no. Except I'm not sure what it's referring to regarding a difference in some undead resting, and some never resting. Thinking it through, it's possible that something like the Demilich "Torpor" ability might be an experience like sleeping.

Not sure what that means for spells that involve communicating through dreams.

Dark Archive

Depends on the type of undead.

Mindless undead are, well, mindless and so don’t have any cognitive functioning to speak of.

Sapient undead also vary a lot.

Lichs (actually most undead) for example, cannot become unconscious. One would assume that being unconscious is required for true sleep and thus true dreaming.

Vampires are immune to sleep, but can become unconscious. Would they dream while unconscious? Who knows.


Liches daydreaming of world domination? Why not?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cintra Bristol wrote:

Except I'm not sure what it's referring to regarding a difference in some undead resting, and some never resting.

Yeah, that's interesting. Not sure what that language is in there for.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Depends on the type of undead.

Mindless undead are, well, mindless and so don’t have any cognitive functioning to speak of.

Sapient undead also vary a lot.

Lichs (actually most undead) for example, cannot become unconscious. One would assume that being unconscious is required for true sleep and thus true dreaming.

Vampires are immune to sleep, but can become unconscious. Would they dream while unconscious? Who knows.

Under the Unconscious condition, the CRB says, "You’re sleeping, or you’ve been knocked out."

That seems to imply that you can be unconscious without being asleep - which would be consistent with the vampire description.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Basically, I was thinking about a mythos that included Great Old Ones and such, wondering if undead would be immune to interactions and influences that come through dreams, and if they would be unable to enter the Dreamlands through means of dreams. It seems simplest to simply rule that undead can't dream and are immune to such influences.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Unless we specifically say in a creature's description, any non-mindless creature can dream. Undead included. Normally, a creature dreams when it sleeps. But things that don't sleep can dream at other times. A vampire dreaming in their coffin while they rest the day away is a great example of this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Unless we specifically say in a creature's description, any non-mindless creature can dream. Undead included. Normally, a creature dreams when it sleeps. But things that don't sleep can dream at other times. A vampire dreaming in their coffin while they rest the day away is a great example of this.

Thank you for clarifying that for me/us, Mr. Jacobs!

So, I guess liches do daydream about world domination...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My other question is this: do undead have souls? From the description in the undead trait (infused with 'soul corrupting evil magic') and the description of the Devourer (who have 'the ability to bind other souls to their own'), I am thinking the answer is 'yes'?


Mindless undead such as zombies and skeletons contain small fracture of soul(so doesnt effect anything other that causing the petetioner slight bit of pain), now vamps, ghosts, ghouls, liches and such they have their souls in their body. Being undead naturally gives them hatered for life I think or addication dependent upon type but ones with souls can't switch out from being evil but ardous task.


I would argue that a fair number of undead are always dreaming, unable to fully process their waking existence. Which is part of why they can be so dangerous.

I know that I dealt with the embarrassment of doing an inclass speech in my underwear by eliminating all witnesses. I would have succeeded too if my darned alarm clock didn't interfere. Skeleton me would not have that weakness.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Chawmaster wrote:
My other question is this: do undead have souls? From the description in the undead trait (infused with 'soul corrupting evil magic') and the description of the Devourer (who have 'the ability to bind other souls to their own'), I am thinking the answer is 'yes'?

A non-mindless undead has a corrupted soul; the fact that this soul is kept behind as an undead and disrupts the metaphysical cycle of souls through the multiverse is why Pharasma is so anti-undead.

A mindless undead has a fragment of a soul, as mentioned above, but it's the negative energy and magic that really animates them, not a soul fragment. A dead body can be animated into a mindless undead after its soul has been judged, but a sapient undead cannot rise in this manner.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Chawmaster wrote:
My other question is this: do undead have souls? From the description in the undead trait (infused with 'soul corrupting evil magic') and the description of the Devourer (who have 'the ability to bind other souls to their own'), I am thinking the answer is 'yes'?

A non-mindless undead has a corrupted soul; the fact that this soul is kept behind as an undead and disrupts the metaphysical cycle of souls through the multiverse is why Pharasma is so anti-undead.

A mindless undead has a fragment of a soul, as mentioned above, but it's the negative energy and magic that really animates them, not a soul fragment. A dead body can be animated into a mindless undead after its soul has been judged, but a sapient undead cannot rise in this manner.

Thank you again for the clarifications. These answers related to undead dreams and souls will help me solidify the plans for my next campaign (insert evil grin here...).


To dream the impossible dream…


Gorbacz wrote:
They dream of electric sheep, of course.

How frustrating I just clicked on this link to make the joke about rotting sheep and found you got there 12 hours earlier.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I know this is a bit cross-universe, but I LOVED the idea of androids gaining true sentience when a soul began inhabiting their body. I made a Starfinder character based around the first moments of true consciousness, and the first time an Android had a dream. Being capable of thought routines versus being capable of thinking and dreaming was a super cool distinction. Applied here, it's interesting to think about an undead's corrupted soul allowing them to dream, but like with everything else the act of dreaming itself is unsettling and twisted and anything but restful.

Maybe that's why undead are so evil... They have never gotten a good night's rest.

Liberty's Edge

Reminds me of the terrible visions the Scarecrow's fear gas gave to Judge Death in that awesome crossover.

Spoiler:
Bunnies and clouds and rainbows and unicorns. Truly too horribly cute to contemplate.


Don't demilichs spend most of their time "hibernating"? How exactly does that work? Are they just asleep for years (or decades,centuries etc?)


Undead "hibernating" is just them hanging out deep in thought, or zoned out staring at a wall of whatever, like how it is when a person tries to sleep but insomnia leaves them sitting, awake, but just kind of "floating" through time.


Mahathallah has her own mindscape called "Adyton" where a lot of those dreaming undead hang out.


Yqatuba wrote:
Don't demilichs spend most of their time "hibernating"? How exactly does that work? Are they just asleep for years (or decades,centuries etc?)

Depends on the lore:

Originally (Gygax's Tomb of Horrors), the demilich was the remnant(s) of a lich whose mind wandered planar pioneers. He'd lost all interest in his body, original life, etc. Yet he was so powerful even his bones were akin to artifacts which you'd fight (and comparably tough to destroy, hence the epic level demiliches of 3.X). The demilich was written more as an obstacle than a creature (though many of its abilities have carried on through the decades into modern versions.)

I think now though that demiliches have not left their bodies, even though they've in some ways transcended/ignored them. So yes, being immortal and bored of novelty & existence, they may well hibernate for lifetimes at a time.

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