A note and a warning about Live streaming AoE

[Unicore]

Also, it doesn't matter if you show causes needless pain on the world as a whole to be worth reconsidering whether it is a good use of your time to do it. That is my point, there are other APs that can be approached from a light-hearted fun perspective that cary much less risk for offending and causing harm than deciding to do your light-hearted comedy show about this one. Refusing to consider that before you begin is making your own trouble, but it is also making trouble for the larger Paizo community, and we have a right to voice our concern about that.

Again, this is not me telling anyone what they can or cant do. This is me trying to remind everyone that the stakes around this AP are going to be different.

[Kasoh]

For a while I was lurking this thread trying to figure out who Unicore was trying to appeal to in this whole endeavor. Anyone with a market big enough to matter probably doesn't need help avoiding controversy and if they did, don't need the help of people on the Paizo forums.

Then it occurred to me that its probably the same decision that Erik Mona had to make a year ago when approving the AP for production and he admitted to underestimating how problematic the conceit was.

So, I agree that taking the time to ask that question of yourself before entering the market is probably a good idea.

But I also think that the RPG livestream market is capable of handling itself.

If there's a market for an insensitive, ill timed stream of Police Academy: Absalom then I congratulate anyone bold enough to capture that market. If there isn't a market for it, it will sink to the bottom and into obscurity because there's no demand for that kind of content.

What we should be concerned about is that there probably is a market for it. Humanity hasn't let me down yet in that regard.

[Windjammer]

I think there's 2 ways to read OP, and they may cause different reactions.

One is empowering: "You can do at your game table what you want and stream it, but understand that this has consequences. As long as you are willing to take those consequences, you're fine to move on."

The other take is censorious: "If you elect to live-stream a certain kind of campaign (namely, AoEW+comedy) expect a well-earned backlash from people who're rightly outraged at your lack of taste and tact--don't do it."

There's now a separate debate in this thread as to whether the AoEW+comedy take would garner the results OP predicts. I have no idea why this should turn on % of beliefs in the real world at large.

The negative backlash OP predicts turns on what's true of an extremely small, non-sampled demographic: people following live-streams of Paizo podcasts and willing to comment on them publicly. Because we lack reliable info on how this niche demographics maps onto polled ones, all discussion of where public opinion stands is largely irrelevant. By engaging that discussion, you tacitly adhere to the verifiably false baseline assumption that the RPG community fairly represents all members of the larger demographics at equal proportion, allowing an isomorphic mapping between the two demographics. It's been a pet peeve on this forum for years that the RPG community doesn't adequately and fairly represent that larger demographic, so it's probably unwise to drag this back in via a backdoor premise.

OP's question is much simpler. Is it foreseeable that some actors among the stated niche demographic could voice backlash? Absolutely. The question is what you do with that information. That's where the empowering vs. censorious readings come in. I think it's a good question to raise, but I also hope Paizo's forums aren't moving towards censoring how other groups play, regardless of groups' choices to live-stream and thus publicize their home play.

[Sam Phelan]

Removed posts and their replies. A lot was removed here because a lot of content referenced earlier removed content. I removed the entire tangents about statistics and generalizations about people from other parts of the world. This content was not on-topic for the thread, and developed into conversation which as becoming heated and politically charged.

Please be very mindful, if the conversation continues, about the point of this specific thread and avoid generalizing and sweeping statements.

[Anguish]

Kasoh wrote:

If there's a market for an insensitive, ill timed stream of Police Academy: Absalom then I congratulate anyone bold enough to capture that market.

Unless I'm misunderstanding - and with such a nuanced topic it's entirely possible I am - Police Academy is pretty much not a/the issue.

What I mean is that at least as portrayal in media is concerned, anything that shows police as comedic, incompetent, or - frankly - poorly isn't a problem. What is a problem is showing police as requiring rule-breaking to get the job done. What is a problem is showing police "knowing" a thing but not having evidence to know that thing. What is a problem is showing police as beyond question, and universally trustworthy.

Police Academy are a bunch of bungling losers who get their job done without abusing anyone, without breaking laws (well, other than the academy's rules), and despite their fundamental incompetence, almost accidentally. Heck, the main cast show no respect for rank or authority, and expose wrong even behind the "thin blue line". Those movies are - as far as I am following things - the opposite of offensive (to non-police viewers).

I'd think that PA:Absalom would be the one portrayal that could actually be viewable.

[thejeff]

Anguish wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

If there's a market for an insensitive, ill timed stream of Police Academy: Absalom then I congratulate anyone bold enough to capture that market.

Unless I'm misunderstanding - and with such a nuanced topic it's entirely possible I am - Police Academy is pretty much not a/the issue.

What I mean is that at least as portrayal in media is concerned, anything that shows police as comedic, incompetent, or - frankly - poorly isn't a problem. What is a problem is showing police as requiring rule-breaking to get the job done. What is a problem is showing police "knowing" a thing but not having evidence to know that thing. What is a problem is showing police as beyond question, and universally trustworthy.

Police Academy are a bunch of bungling losers who get their job done without abusing anyone, without breaking laws (well, other than the academy's rules), and despite their fundamental incompetence, almost accidentally. Heck, the main cast show no respect for rank or authority, and expose wrong even behind the "thin blue line". Those movies are - as far as I am following things - the opposite of offensive (to non-police viewers).

I'd think that PA:Absalom would be the one portrayal that could actually be viewable.

I think I agree, especially about anything showing them as poorly or as incompetent. Comedic could be a problem, depending on how the comedy is aimed. Taking the common RPG stream joking about ultraviolence and putting it in a policing context and that's an issue. One that the non-lethal rule could actually make worse, since there are aspects of the combination of apparently lethal spells/attacks with the lack of actual deaths that lend themselves to ridicule.

I definitely agree that showing the police as needing to break rules to get the job done is the biggest issue, but I'd say that even a straight up "hero cop" presentation is a problem. Not as much, since it doesn't provide cover for the bad things, but it still works as copaganda. Reinforces the thin blue line and a few bad apples ideas rather than flat out justifying police abuse.

[thejeff]

Kasoh wrote:

For a while I was lurking this thread trying to figure out who Unicore was trying to appeal to in this whole endeavor. Anyone with a market big enough to matter probably doesn't need help avoiding controversy and if they did, don't need the help of people on the Paizo forums.

Then it occurred to me that its probably the same decision that Erik Mona had to make a year ago when approving the AP for production and he admitted to underestimating how problematic the conceit was.

So, I agree that taking the time to ask that question of yourself before entering the market is probably a good idea.

But I also think that the RPG livestream market is capable of handling itself.

If there's a market for an insensitive, ill timed stream of Police Academy: Absalom then I congratulate anyone bold enough to capture that market. If there isn't a market for it, it will sink to the bottom and into obscurity because there's no demand for that kind of content.

What we should be concerned about is that there probably is a market for it. Humanity hasn't let me down yet in that regard.

Which is the problem with the basic capitalist "let the market decide" solution. It's nice to think that the market will solve our problems and we don't have to do anything except passively don't purchase or watch things we don't like.

History suggests that's not the case. There's a market for lots of nasty things and I'm not willing to congratulate people for exploiting it. Especially when those efforts serve to reinforce the very problems we're dealing with. Now obviously, RPG adventures and live streams of RPG adventures are so incredibly niche that they're not going to have any noticeable effect on society, but the same market idea would apply to more mainstream work. I don't that making another version of COPS or CSI would be a bold decision that needs applause. Passing up that basically guaranteed revenue stream seems bolder to me.

[Anguish]

thejeff wrote:

I think I agree, especially about anything showing them as poorly or as incompetent. Comedic could be a problem, depending on how the comedy is aimed. Taking the common RPG stream joking about ultraviolence and putting it in a policing context and that's an issue. One that the non-lethal rule could actually make worse, since there are aspects of the combination of apparently lethal spells/attacks with the lack of actual deaths that lend themselves to ridicule.

I definitely agree that showing the police as needing to break rules to get the job done is the biggest issue, but I'd say that even a straight up "hero cop" presentation is a problem. Not as much, since it doesn't provide cover for the bad things, but it still works as copaganda. Reinforces the thin blue line and a few bad apples ideas rather than flat out justifying police abuse.

Yup. I was pretty much addressing the Police Academy reference, which is a specific thing. Those movies I can't wrap my head around offending anyone except police, and rarely even then, so I was compelled to bring it up.

I'm finding it difficult to not see the media problems now that they've been pointed out to me. It's so common. But Police Academy... not so much.

[Kasoh]

Anguish wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

If there's a market for an insensitive, ill timed stream of Police Academy: Absalom then I congratulate anyone bold enough to capture that market.

Unless I'm misunderstanding - and with such a nuanced topic it's entirely possible I am - Police Academy is pretty much not a/the issue...I'd think that PA:Absalom would be the one portrayal that could actually be viewable.

Police Academy was the first Police Comedy that came to mind, it might not be the most accurate example. Supertroopers features abuses of police power as comedy. I haven't watched any cop shows aside from Midsummer Murders in a long time, so I might be behind the times here. Brooklyn 99 for how deftly it tries to maneuver the politics of Cop Workplace Comedy still had plots where the police detain suspects as long as they can then try to find evidence to support their arrest. (But its okay, because they actually were guilty!)

thejeff wrote:

Which is the problem with the basic capitalist "let the market decide" solution. It's nice to think that the market will solve our problems and we don't have to do anything except passively don't purchase or watch things we don't like.

History suggests that's not the case. There's a market for lots of nasty things and I'm not willing to congratulate people for exploiting it. Especially when those efforts serve to reinforce the very problems we're dealing with. Now obviously, RPG adventures and live streams of RPG adventures are so incredibly niche that they're not going to have any noticeable effect on society, but the same market idea would apply to more mainstream work. I don't that making another version of COPS or CSI would be a bold decision that needs applause. Passing up that basically guaranteed revenue stream seems bolder to me.

That's fair. I know that the reality show COPS has been cancelled amidst the protests. I likely have too much faith in the myth of the self correcting market, but I'd rather someone try and fail because that makes the message much more clear to others who would try. Once abuse and perpetuation of the Good Cop myth is no longer profitable you won't see it as often. This is me foolishly assuming people are rational actors, but if anything motivates people to change it is monetary losses.

[thejeff]

Kasoh wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Which is the problem with the basic capitalist "let the market decide" solution. It's nice to think that the market will solve our problems and we don't have to do anything except passively don't purchase or watch things we don't like.

History suggests that's not the case. There's a market for lots of nasty things and I'm not willing to congratulate people for exploiting it. Especially when those efforts serve to reinforce the very problems we're dealing with. Now obviously, RPG adventures and live streams of RPG adventures are so incredibly niche that they're not going to have any noticeable effect on society, but the same market idea would apply to more mainstream work. I don't that making another version of COPS or CSI would be a bold decision that needs applause. Passing up that basically guaranteed revenue stream seems bolder to me.

That's fair. I know that the reality show COPS has been cancelled amidst the protests. I likely have too much faith in the myth of the self correcting market, but I'd rather someone try and fail because that makes the message much more clear to others who would try. Once abuse and perpetuation of the Good Cop myth is no longer profitable you won't see it as often. This is me foolishly assuming people are rational actors, but if anything motivates people to change it is monetary losses.

But if they try and succeed, then the market enforces the opposite.

It's likely that COPS wasn't cancelled simply because they feared people wouldn't want to keep watching it, but because they wanted to avoid the controversy, boycotts, protests and whatever else might be aimed at them. Not simply enough of their audience individually deciding they didn't want to watch.

[Kasoh]

thejeff wrote:

But if they try and succeed, then the market enforces the opposite.

It's likely that COPS wasn't cancelled simply because they feared people wouldn't want to keep watching it, but because they wanted to avoid the controversy, boycotts, protests and whatever else might be aimed at them. Not simply enough of their audience individually deciding they didn't want to watch.

If the market enforces the opposite that's life's continuing stream of disappointments. It means there's more work to do on the people who don't understand the harm their current behavior maintains. You do what you can: protest, write letters, educate yourself and others, vote for candidates who promise to fix the issues you care about, join an armed revolution. Or not, as your conscious dictates.

I suspect COPS was the moral choice you lauded earlier. Or, the projected public perception benefit of cancelling the show outweighed the profit it brought in. Corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders, not to the public, not to progressive ideals, not to anything but sustained market growth. You can't trust a corporation, but they are fairly predictable.

This is getting a little far afield of the topic, so I apologize for that.

[Anguish]

Kasoh wrote:

Brooklyn 99 for how deftly it tries to maneuver the politics of Cop Workplace Comedy still had plots where the police detain suspects as long as they can then try to find evidence to support their arrest. (But its okay, because they actually were guilty!)

Darn it, I thought I was done here. I read something recently regarding B99 talking about how they've tossed the four scripts they had ready for next season because they looked at things in a new light. They're reconsidering how to move forward. So, while they've made mistakes, they're conscious now and working to improve.