So, with Baleful Polymorph, does the creature you transform (especially if it crit fails) take on ALL of the stats of the new creature, or does it simply... look like it?
For example: enemy crit failed against Baleful, gets turned into a crayfish (because why not) and he's just... a crustacean. Does he then take on all the base stats, as the spell states 'Body and Mind'? Does this ALSO apply if the target simply fails?
Crit fail says they completely change, but a normal fail just states they transform, without specifying exactly what that means. If I Polymorph Her Infernal Majestrix Queen Abrogail Thrune II, and she just fails, can I then have my familiar cottontop tamarin simply snack on the now-a-harmless-animal Queen of Cheliax? Or does she still retain all her AC and HP?
I'm sure there's an answer I'm not seeing somewhere.
For simplicity's sake, I'd say they keep their normal stats, but are otherwise rendered completely harmless (they can't attack, cast spells, activate special abilities, etc.).
So, with Baleful Polymorph, does the creature you transform (especially if it crit fails) take on ALL of the stats of the new creature, or does it simply... look like it?
For example: enemy crit failed against Baleful, gets turned into a crayfish (because why not) and he's just... a crustacean. Does he then take on all the base stats, as the spell states 'Body and Mind'? Does this ALSO apply if the target simply fails?
Crit fail says they completely change, but a normal fail just states they transform, without specifying exactly what that means. If I Polymorph Her Infernal Majestrix Queen Abrogail Thrune II, and she just fails, can I then have my familiar cottontop tamarin simply snack on the now-a-harmless-animal Queen of Cheliax? Or does she still retain all her AC and HP?
I'm sure there's an answer I'm not seeing somewhere.
I can't see one which is clearly an oversight. Even in the Bestairy there aren't any harmless animalss that I can see.
I think I would give it AC10, with a +0 saving throw unless they have kept their mind in which case they can keep their will save. Leave the hitpoints unchanged. At the level where you can cast Baleful Polymorph they aren't going to last long.
Or
You could forget all that and just say it dies if a player attacks it.
It's important to note that this spell has the incapacitation trait, meaning 13th-level creatures and above will improve their save result by one degree.
As for the stats, I would simply let the GM decide what constitutes "harmless". It would probably entail removing ability bonuses and reducing proficiencies across the board, maybe even lowering effective level by a certain amount or to a set value.
The main issue is, for example, if you even get a powerful enemy to crit fail, making it just a fail, it STILL becomes this thing for a full minute. If it doesn't get the next spot in initiative, there's numerous ways other party members could just... crush it. Does stomping on the formerly-boss-now-a-hamster just flat out kill it? Or does he still somehow have 200+ hp?
It's one of the bigger oversights in the system, tbh.
The main issue is, for example, if you even get a powerful enemy to crit fail, making it just a fail, it STILL becomes this thing for a full minute. If it doesn't get the next spot in initiative, there's numerous ways other party members could just... crush it. Does stomping on the formerly-boss-now-a-hamster just flat out kill it? Or does he still somehow have 200+ hp?
It's one of the bigger oversights in the system, tbh.
Right. It's a very powerful spell. Which is why it has the Incapacitation Trait.
Any really threatening enemy is unlikely to get worse than a Success. In most cases, even if they Roll a 1, that would still just be a normal Failure, and get bumped up to Success. Against any other enemy, it will likely result in them dying. Just like other Incapacitation Spells.
That's pretty much the way Polymorph has always worked.
Banishment is only Level 5 and removes a threat entirely in 1 shot, even on a Failure.
As does Charm.
Sleep.
Uncontrollable Dance.
Etc...
The main issue is, for example, if you even get a powerful enemy to crit fail, making it just a fail, it STILL becomes this thing for a full minute. If it doesn't get the next spot in initiative, there's numerous ways other party members could just... crush it. Does stomping on the formerly-boss-now-a-hamster just flat out kill it? Or does he still somehow have 200+ hp?
It's one of the bigger oversights in the system, tbh.
Right. It's a very powerful spell. Which is why it has the Incapacitation Trait.
Any really threatening enemy is unlikely to get worse than a Success. In most cases, even if they Roll a 1, that would still just be a normal Failure, and get bumped up to Success. Against any other enemy, it will likely result in them dying. Just like other Incapacitation Spells.
That's pretty much the way Polymorph has always worked.
Banishment is only Level 5 and removes a threat entirely in 1 shot, even on a Failure.
As does Charm.
Sleep.
Uncontrollable Dance.
Etc...
Casting the spell at a higher level though all but negates that limit. A sorcerer with the arcane evolution feat can just swap that in as a signature spell and pop out an 8th level Baleful, easy. At 15th level you can pop off at least 3 of those. Incapacitation isn't nearly as much a hard limit as you'd think unless you're fighting enemies above your level, significantly. So at 15th level, even a 16th level enemy is susceptible as usual.
This would be much less of an issue if we had specific rules for how Baleful works in terms of the new creatures stats.
Right. It's a very powerful spell. Which is why it has the Incapacitation Trait.Any really threatening enemy is unlikely to get worse than a Success. In most cases, even if they Roll a 1, that would still just be a normal Failure, and get bumped up to Success. Against any other enemy, it will likely result in them dying. Just like other Incapacitation Spells.
That's pretty much the way Polymorph has always worked.
With the minor difference that 1st ed Baleful Polymorph only gave enemies a +4 to the save in an avoidable worst case, the new version is handing out a +10 for the very monsters that are a major problem to you.
You should not take this new Baleful Polymorph spell it is a very very bad choice.
Paizo dropped the ball with Incapacitation - it is a total wipe out for many spells.
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Right. It's a very powerful spell. Which is why it has the Incapacitation Trait.Any really threatening enemy is unlikely to get worse than a Success. In most cases, even if they Roll a 1, that would still just be a normal Failure, and get bumped up to Success. Against any other enemy, it will likely result in them dying. Just like other Incapacitation Spells.
That's pretty much the way Polymorph has always worked.
With the minor difference that 1st ed Baleful Polymorph only gave enemies a +4 to the save in an avoidable worst case, the new version is handing out a +10 for the very monsters that are a major problem to you.
You should not take this new Baleful Polymorph spell it is a very very bad choice.
Paizo dropped the ball with Incapacitation - it is a total wipe out for many spells.
Where are you getting this +10? You do realize it is ASSUMED you're going to heighten the spell if you intend to cast it at a higher level, right?
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So, with Baleful Polymorph, does the creature you transform (especially if it crit fails) take on ALL of the stats of the new creature, or does it simply... look like it?
For example: enemy crit failed against Baleful, gets turned into a crayfish (because why not) and he's just... a crustacean. Does he then take on all the base stats, as the spell states 'Body and Mind'? Does this ALSO apply if the target simply fails?
Crit fail says they completely change, but a normal fail just states they transform, without specifying exactly what that means. If I Polymorph Her Infernal Majestrix Queen Abrogail Thrune II, and she just fails, can I then have my familiar cottontop tamarin simply snack on the now-a-harmless-animal Queen of Cheliax? Or does she still retain all her AC and HP?
I'm sure there's an answer I'm not seeing somewhere.
I agree with you that it's rather unclear, but given the steps needed for this spell to work on powerful foes (which you pointed out), I'd go for the more powerful interpretation, that is to say they become a truly harmless animal. AC 10+Dex you feel is appropiate, speed as appropiate, and HP so low they die in one hit.
Turn them into an ant and have your familiar eat them? Sure. Go nuts.
But I do agree the rules could be a bit more specific in what stays the same and what changes.
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Paizo dropped the ball with Incapacitation - it is a total wipe out for many spells.
Respectfully, I disagree.
Incapacitation spells are AMAZING against equal or lower level targets. Really makes you feel like a boss.
It's also great for the GM, when he wants to show off a higher level NPC's capabilities in dramatic fashion.
So, though they aren't the end all be all spells they used to be (which is GOOD!), they do still have a place in the game, and a good one.
Where are you getting this +10? You do realize it is ASSUMED you're going to heighten the spell if you intend to cast it at a higher level, right?
Right. It's a very powerful spell. Which is why it has the Incapacitation Trait.Any really threatening enemy is unlikely to get worse than a Success. In most cases, even if they Roll a 1, that would still just be a normal Failure, and get bumped up to Success. Against any other enemy, it will likely result in them dying. Just like other Incapacitation Spells.
That's pretty much the way Polymorph has always worked.
With the minor difference that 1st ed Baleful Polymorph only gave enemies a +4 to the save in an avoidable worst case, the new version is handing out a +10 for the very monsters that are a major problem to you.
You should not take this new Baleful Polymorph spell it is a very very bad choice.
Paizo dropped the ball with Incapacitation - it is a total wipe out for many spells.
Heightening the Spell doesn't do anything to Incapacitation. The highest level you can Heighten it to is half your Level. Any enemy that's a real Boss type challenge is going to be above your own level, which automatically puts it at more than twice the Level of the Spell. The DC of the Save doesn't change at all. It still gets its result moved up by 1 Tier. The same as if it got +10 to its Save. Just like Gortle said.
Where are you getting this +10? You do realize it is ASSUMED you're going to heighten the spell if you intend to cast it at a higher level, right?
Are you assuming that your target is not higher than twice the level of your spell?
If you are pulling out your top level spell, then it is in an important encounter. If it is an important encounter there is a high probability that the target is above that level. To my mind that is a 75% chance of it just not being useful. Can you afford to waste your turn?
Is your gaming group unoptimised so that the GM challenges you with lower level monsters? Then fine, but I always have to bump up encounters when I GM.
+10 is the modifier to make a critical failure a failure, a failure a success, and a success a critical success. That's what incapacitation does.
Baleful Polymorph is very very bad choice.
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With no text indicating otherwise, I think the target would retain its HP and AC. They are "harmless" so the regular polymorph rules about limiting the types of things that can apply to a "battle form" seem like they won't be applicable here, however their gear still melds into their body so only constant magic items would continue to have an effect. I think it would keep all of its stats as well, although it would still believe that it is that type of animal rather than someone that got polymorphed. Since they are transformed into a harmless animal, it would have no attacks or offensive actions it could take in combat.
I do wish there was a bit more clarity however, because "body and mind" in the crit fail text is extremely vague. For example, if its stats are supposed to change, does its traits change as well to the chosen animal?
With no text indicating otherwise, I think the target would retain its HP and AC. They are "harmless" so the regular polymorph rules about limiting the types of things that can apply to a "battle form" seem like they won't be applicable here, however their gear still melds into their body so only constant magic items would continue to have an effect. I think it would keep all of its stats as well, although it would still believe that it is that type of animal rather than someone that got polymorphed. Since they are transformed into a harmless animal, it would have no attacks or offensive actions it could take in combat.
I do wish there was a bit more clarity however, because "body and mind" in the crit fail text is extremely vague. For example, if its stats are supposed to change, does its traits change as well to the chosen animal?
Body and mind seems pretty clear to me. You used to be Trogdor, King of Dragons, and now you're a Flash Beetle. Page 41 of the Bestiary shows all of your stats.
Body and mind seems pretty clear to me. You used to be Trogdor, King of Dragons, and now you're a Flash Beetle. Page 41 of the Bestiary shows all of your stats.
Yep seems good.
Or you could look at Pest Form it gives some official statistics for tiny animals.
You transform into a the battle form of a Tiny animal, such as a cat, insect, lizard, or rat. You can decide the specific type of animal (such as a rat or praying mantis), but this has no effect on the form's Size or statistics. While in this form, you gain the animal trait. You can Dismiss the spell.
You gain the following statistics and abilities:
AC = 15 + your level. Ignore your armor's check penalty and Speed reduction.
Speed 10 feet.
Weakness 5 to physical damage. (If you take physical damage in this form, you take 5 additional damage.)
Low-light vision and imprecise scent 30 feet.
Acrobatics and Stealth modifiers of +10, unless your own modifier is higher; Athletics modifier –4.
In most cases, even if they Roll a 1, that would still just be a normal Failure, and get bumped up to Success.
If an enemy rolls a nat 1 on their save, that'd be bumped down one category - so bumping it up one category for the incapacitation trait apply would mean getting whatever result the math indicated before any category shifting.
So if a 1 would be a fail, it stays a fail.
Right. But if a 1 would be a Success, it stays a Success.
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Right. But if a 1 would be a Success, it stays a Success.
If an enemy rolls a 1 and beats the DC you should probably run away.
If an enemy rolls a 1 and beats the DC you should probably run away.Right. But if a 1 would be a Success, it stays a Success.
Definitely, since if that's the case you're probably looking at an enemy that is 4 levels higher than you with Extreme saving throw value, or even more levels higher which puts it at literally 'off the charts' threat level.
And also "Right, but..." sounds like trying to dismiss that the quote I was originally addressing was in error about how a natural 1 would interact with the Incapacitation trait.
It wasn't in error. I was clarifying my original statement. It's not all that rare to encounter boss creatures 3 or more levels above party level, with ways to give themselves Status and Circumstance buffs. Which are exactly the kind of enemies we're talking about.
It wasn't in error. I was clarifying my original statement.How is "Right. But if a 1 would be a Success, it stays a Success" a clarification of "In most cases, even if they Roll a 1, that would still just be a normal Failure, and get bumped up to Success."?
In your original statement you were having a gain of a success category, not keeping the same category. That was an error.
If the Creature has high enough saves that it cannot Fail, a 1 turns a Success into a Failure, and Incapacitation turns it back into a Success. I'm not sure what the issue is.
It's not all that rare to encounter boss creatures 3 or more levels above party level, with ways to give themselves Status and Circumstance buffs. Which are exactly the kind of enemies we're talking about.It is "all that rare" to encounter a boss that pushes their saving throw bonuses high enough to succeed on a 1, even when dealing with Level +3 (or +4).
At least, seems that way to me - maybe you could cite an example that isn't as outlandish as "level +4 and extreme saves" seems?
No problem.
Age of Ashes Book 4.
H1. The Approach Moderate 14
Even a standard Mukradi has a +32 Fort Save. This one is Elite, so it's +34
I4. Veshumirix’s Lair Severe 14
Veshumirix has a +30 Fort Save against Magic, and can passively inflict Frightened 2 to everything within 90 Feet. That results in an effective +32 Fort Save.
Both of these creatures are within 2 Levels of the party. They aren't even Extreme Encounters.
That's not what I said. The words "by the math" never appear in my post. I was always taking into account a 1 changing a Success to a Failure and then Incapacitation changing it back to a Success. You misinterpreted my original post. That's ok.I'm not sure what the issue is.That you originally stated a creature could fail on a 1 by the math, and have that improved to a success because of the incapacitation trait - and now you are acting like you never said that even though it's right there in the quotes.
No problem.I'm not surprise that it's one of the know "low spots" in save DC progression that your example shows up in - and only work as examples because of Paizo breaking the pattern and delaying spell proficiency scaling (presumably because otherwise levels 5 and 13 would be 'too much cool stuff at once' for casters)
And even then, your examples aren't of enemies that successful save on a 1 across the board, it's just with their best save.
Suggesting that the circumstance we're talking about is "all that rare" afterall.
You asked for examples. I spent literally 2 minutes looking and found 2 of them. They aren't invalid just because you weren't expecting me to easily find examples.
Honestly I'm not sure why I bothered. This is not the first time you've asked for evidence, and then when presented with evidence, decided out of hand that it's irrelevant because it supports a view other than your own.
I didn't say your examples are invalid - I said they aren't as illustrative as you would think because of the level at which they happen having a known balance-hiccup.
If it's not a rare occurrence, shouldn't take more than another "literally 2 minutes" to find more examples outside the level 5-6 and 13-14 balance-hiccups.
Age of Ashes Book 5
A5. Exit Room Low 15
Zaramuun has a +34 Fort Save, which means that the only way it can get a Failure on is with a 1. Not quite impossible, but it's only a Low difficulty, and it's going to succeed 19/20 times. Not a good use of a Spell. To be clear. That's a Failure, lowered to a Critical Failure, raised back to a Failure.
A Desolate Vision Extreme 15
The Promise of Fire has a +36 Fort Save.
** spoiler omitted **I didn't say your examples are invalid - I said they aren't as illustrative as you would think because of the level at which they happen having a known balance-hiccup.
If it's not a rare occurrence, shouldn't take more than another "literally 2 minutes" to find more examples outside the level 5-6 and 13-14 balance-hiccups.
Wait, wouldn't a 15th level Wizard be able to heighten the spell to 8th level, meaning the Incapacitaion trait would only trigger on enemies of level 17 and over? Since Incapacitation is specific about being more than twice the spell level.
Meaning, in your first example, Incapacitation doesn't apply.
The other example, and the two you posted earlier are fine.
Basically if your spellcaster is at an odd level and just gained a new level of spellcasting, you can use Incapacitation spells on creatures of up to your level +1 without triggering Incapacitation. If you're at an even level, anything higher than your level will benefit from Incapacitation.
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It always kills me when I see people gripe about Incap Trait.
In what universe does it make sense to allow a 25% chance per Spellcaster per Round to just instantly win a Boss fight without even having to come within 30 feet of the opponent or roll initiative?
Scry and Fry is dead and buried in a yellow waste soaked grave, deservedly so, and so are nearly all other methods to cheese a single spell/tactic in order to trivialize encounters. It's one of the STRENGTHS of the system, not a flaw IMO. If you want this kind of munchkin silliness there are still plenty of 3.X and PF 1st ed games out there going on where you can just insta-gib or grant yourself infinite wishes.
It always kills me when I see people gripe about Incap Trait.
In what universe does it make sense to allow a 25% chance per Spellcaster per Round to just instantly win a Boss fight without even having to come within 30 feet of the opponent or roll initiative?
Scry and Fry is dead and buried in a yellow waste soaked grave, deservedly so, and so are nearly all other methods to cheese a single spell/tactic in order to trivialize encounters. It's one of the STRENGTHS of the system, not a flaw IMO. If you want this kind of munchkin silliness there are still plenty of 3.X and PF 1st ed games out there going on where you can just insta-gib or grant yourself infinite wishes.
The OP is saying that the Spell is too powerful, not too weak.
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Right, yes I understood that much, I simply didn't feel the prospect of quoting individuals to call out would be very kind and instead decided to leave my peace as it relates to the "meme" that Incap is a bad idea.
I think BP could use a bit more clarification in terms of what happens to them after they're turned into a harmless creature to indicate if you are supposed to be able to simply crush effortlessly it beneath your heel with no effort or if its intent is to leave their HP intact thereby creating a super tough field mouse that cannot themselves participate in combat in a meaningful way. I haven't run into it being used in play yet but if I were running the table I think I'd probably just give the creature 1 HP and call it a day letting the party decide if it's worth expending an action to do away with the former baddie.
I really like the idea of treating the result of Baleful Polymorph as pest form on a hostile creature. I will probably run it that way.
What confuses me about the hostility towards the incapacitation trait is how often people seem to think that any caster that values spells with incapacitation, must fill their entire top spell level with them. That would be a terrible choice.
Having one available is a perfectly fine idea, as worst case scenario, if you are a prepared caster, is that you probably just end up using it in an encounter you didn't *need* to burn a high level spell slot for, but you did, and thus trivialized it, or you are a spontaneous caster and you never cast that one spell that day, using the slot for your other highest level spell.
Also, running into 2 encounters over the course of 20 levels where something could potentially succeed on a 1, if you target its best save, is pretty much my definition of rare. Casting your top level spells on creatures you know nothing about, without feeling out its defenses first is tactically bad play to begin with.
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Casting your top level spells on creatures you know nothing about, without feeling out its defenses first is tactically bad play to begin with.
Not that feeling out its defenses is all that effective anyways (at least not if you're relying on Recall Knowledge anyways).
Using combat maneuvers and other spells to probe works well, but can be really time consuming too (particularly if you're the only one in the party doing it). A lot of GMs don't like it what's more, considering it a form of metagaming.
That's like, only a small part of what I said...
I literally edited my post and tacked that last sentence on as an afterthought. The rest of what I was saying stands up just fine without it.
In what universe does it make sense to allow a 25% chance per Spellcaster per Round to just instantly win a Boss fight without even having to come within 30 feet of the opponent or roll initiative?
The universe where the player casters choose to take that type of spell and use that tactic, rather than wear the boss down.
If the players want to roll the dice and take their 25% chance of taking out a boss with one spell they should be allowed to. It probably won't be as easy as that because the Boss probably knows a bit about their tactics by now. But even so people whould be allowed to play this way. There are whole type of spell caster designed around Save or Suck spells. Let them exist.
That a level 6 Baleful Polymorph can work on a level 12 creatue but not a level 13 one is just wrong. Level has alway been a feature that is technically invisible to the players. It is yet another thing which breaks the feel of the game.
Scry and Fry is dead and buried in a yellow waste soaked grave, deservedly so, and so are nearly all other methods to cheese a single spell/tactic in order to trivialize encounters. It's one of the STRENGTHS of the system, not a flaw IMO.
It doesn't trivialise encounters, because you still have to roll. It is also not possible to get stack powers together to get those automatic scenarios anywmore. This point is fair but just not relevant to the rest of the discussion.
Have you every have the fighter critical hit the boss straight up and knock him prone? Its not pretty, but it is fun for the players.
Let the dice roll.
Level has alway been a feature that is technically invisible to the players. It is yet another thing which breaks the feel of the game.
This is patently untrue. There was a whole list of awkward ways spells worked based upon the level of the enemy in PF1. Incapacitation is worlds cleaner than having arbitrary level limits on spells, which is what would have happened had they not included the incapacitation trait. You could never put an adult dragon to sleep with a 1st level sleep spell in PF1.
We had a boss monster critically fail against a first level sleep spell read off a scroll, and still fall asleep, because the fail result of most incapacitation spells are still very good. It was totally awesome until we walked up to try and shackle the creature, but failed the stealth check and woke it up.
Level has alway been a feature that is technically invisible to the players. It is yet another thing which breaks the feel of the game.This is patently untrue. There was a whole list of awkward ways spells worked based upon the level of the enemy in PF1. Incapacitation is worlds cleaner than having arbitrary level limits on spells, which is what would have happened had they not included the incapacitation trait. You could never put an adult dragon to sleep with a 1st level sleep spell in PF1.
OK, yes there were spells with level dependant effects. eg Scare, Holy Word . Players would know upfront that Scare was a useless spell after a while. Likewise with Holy Word - it had a use against lower level hordes. But yes is was extremely frustrating to pull out your big spell and have it go puff because the enemy was one level higher than you had hoped. Characters still did not know levels.
It still doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt the feel of the game. It was a bad idea then and still is. But now the issue is that huge categories of spells have had the Incapcitation trait tacked onto them. It is a total wipe out.
We had a boss monster critically fail against a first level sleep spell read off a scroll, and still fall asleep, because the fail result of most incapacitation spells are still very good. It was totally awesome until we walked up to try and shackle the creature, but failed the stealth check and woke it up.
And was it in any way less fun?
We had a boss monster critically fail against a first level sleep spell read off a scroll, and still fall asleep, because the fail result of most incapacitation spells are still very good. It was totally awesome until we walked up to try and shackle the creature, but failed the stealth check and woke it up.And was it in any way less fun?
No, it was awesome fun. I would never have thought to even try it but the player of our sorcerer is a gambler and pulled off the cuff moves like this at least once a session. My point is that incapacitation spells can still do interesting things against higher level monsters.
First off, I never said I thought it was too strong or too weak. I just said that with a lack of clarification on the exact result of the transformation, it could allow for VERY fast ends to fights.
Second, heightening does indeed affect the spell. A heightened spell is the higher level, so incap will use THAT level to determine the result, the same way counteract does.
A 15th level caster can use 8th level spells, meaning a 16th level or lower enemy is vulnerable to it normally. So unless you're fighting +2 or above regularly, it's still easily doable. On anything that isn't a boss monster, you're more than fine.
Not sure where the confusion on THAT came from.
Carry on!
So can any Paizo dev with authority tell us exactly how does this spell work, please?
As it is written, nothing prevents me from turning anything into a slug and squash it dead with the next action. It seems very very badly written. If you wanted it to be: the creature maintains its HP, AC and Saves it should have simply said so.
Any help please?
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This is deep into GM fiat territory IMO BUT there is one spell from Secrets of Magic that I think can provide some great mechanical support if you're willing to lift it given that the spell describes turning your Companion into a harmless and younger version of itself. I am no dev, Paizo or otherwise, but I'm happy to help offer my own 2c.
You transform your companion into its juvenile form, such as a cub, foal, kitten, puppy, or piglet, making the target appear harmless. It becomes Tiny (if it was larger), and its reach is reduced to 0 feet. All of its Speeds are halved (to a minimum Speed of 5 feet), and it gains weakness 5 to physical damage. In all other ways, its abilities and statistics are unchanged....
Linkify for the spell in question.
So, taking that I would say that they are INCAPABLE of taking any hostile actions, they halve their base speed and lose all forms of movement that are not native to the type of animal that they're made into by BP, they gain weakness 5 to physical damage, shrinks them to Tiny size, treat their reach as 0, and strips them of the ability to do anything that requires hands, interact, or manipulate Actions. I'd have them retain their HP, AC, Saving throw bonuses, and any Int/Wis/Cha derived Skill Bonuses (which is not to say they can take all such ACTIONS that these are used for given the lack of hands, language, and movement). Everything else that is granted to them by way of their physical body and physiology should similarly just be stripped away from them as well.
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So can any Paizo dev with authority tell us exactly how does this spell work, please?
As it is written, nothing prevents me from turning anything into a slug and squash it dead with the next action. It seems very very badly written. If you wanted it to be: the creature maintains its HP, AC and Saves it should have simply said so.
Any help please?
Good luck.
My best guess. You keep your hit points and saves. You have no effective attacks. Otherwise just use Pest form for the other statistics.
But not this is authoritative, it's just a guess.
I agree it is stunning that we have abilities like this in the game with such obvious questions unanswered.
I agree it is stunning that we have abilities like this in the game with such obvious questions unanswered.
Even the best software crashes. And that is with the benefit of a compiler/lexer that will go through the rules text and find most of the problems automatically.
I've always just assumed it turned the target into pest form (echoing the two that have said that above) it stays simple and powerful.
EDIT: actually I'm not even sure about that anymore. The crit fail text says it transforms BODY AND MIND, which clearly implies a change in stats, even though it never specifies which stats.
(Thank you for your input.
From another discussion on reddit, I think the only way to interpret is by the principle of "if it doesn't say it changes the stats, then it doesn't". Which I don't know if it's an actual spelled out principle in the rules, or just an interpretation of the authors' intention.
By the same logic, nothing justifies using other effects like Pest Form for this spell. If it fucntioned like Pest Form, it would have said it clearly (I HOPE!)
So apparently what the spell does is: transform a 300 HP, 41 AC demon into a 300 HP, 41 AC beetle that doesn't take any offensive actions, that even thinks its a beetle in the case of a crit fail.
Pretty good, but I'm disappointend in the dangerous lack of clarity. )