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Hello everyone! This is my first ever post on these forums, and I am excited to get to share my thoughts and ideas with everyone here! With that out of the way, I will now get to my point.
Pathfinder 2e has done a lot of great things with monster design. Many creatures that were simplistic or boring are now far more interesting then they were in Pathfinder 1e. Almost every creature now has a unique ability or two that makes them stand out from one another. The numbers actually working in this edition, and the three action system, have opened up an enormous amount of potential design space for monsters, which the team at Paizo has used to great effect for most of their creations.
All of this just makes the current design behind Pathfinder 2e dragons all the more disappointing.
Compared to many other monsters, I find Pathfinder 2e's dragons to be almost identical to there 5e counterparts, being largely just bags of hit points and damage. Many dragon types do have an interesting reaction ability, but other than that, they don't have much going on with them.
Just compare dragons with the linnorms in both Bestiaries. Linnorms have riders on several of there attacks (poison and grab) and have breath weapons that not only do damage but also have other effects (causing a status condition, leaving a damaging cloud, or sometimes both). Tarn and tor linnorms also have powerful single-action abilities that they can and probably will use, giving them a way to still threaten opponents even if they only have a single action to spare due to control effects or using their breath weapon.
Additionally, there are some notable oddities in the actual design of many dragons. The range of a dragon's frightful presence never changes regardless of its size, level, or age. Some of the existing dragons have attacks that they will likely never use. Any dragon with four different strikes (cloud, gold, magma, and red to name a few) will almost never make a tail strike, there bite is more damaging, and they do not make a tail strike when they frenzy. The only time they will ever make a tail strike is if an opponent happens to be exactly 5 feet out of bite distance, and they only have a single action left. Draconic momentum just feels conceptually off to me, as a dragon could land in the middle of a village, attack some random commoner, and because the strike is almost certainly a crit recharge its breath weapon for some reason. I could go on, but I think I have said enough to make my point.
So I am going to try and make dragons more interesting. Here is what I have as a draft for a more interesting and dangerous dragon, using an adult white dragon as the baseline.
Adult White Dragon (Creature 10)
Common CE Large Dragon (Cold)
Perception +22; darkvision, scent (precise) 100 feet, snow vision
Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Acrobatics +17, Arcana +16, Athletics +23, Intimidation +20, Stealth +18
Str +7, Dex +2, Con +5, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +2
Snow Vision Snow doesn’t impair a white dragons vision; it ignores concealment from snowfall.
AC 30; Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +17; +1 status to all saves vs. magic
HP 260; Immunities cold; Weaknesses fire 10
Dragon Chill (arcane, aura, cold, evocation); 5 feet, 2d6 cold damage (DC 27 basic Reflex save)
Frightful Presence (aura, emotion, fear, mental) 100 feet, DC 27
Freezing Blood [reaction] (arcane, cold); Trigger An adjacent creature deals piercing or slashing damage to the dragon. Effect The dragon’s blood sprays on the creature, dealing 2d6 cold damage. A creature that takes cold damage in this way is slowed 1 for 1 round.
Speed 30 feet, fly 120 feet, swim 30 feet, ice climb 30 feet
Melee [one action] jaws +23 (deadly 2d6 cold, magical, reach 10 feet), Damage 2d10+15 piercing plus Improved Grab
Melee [one action] claw +23 (agile, deadly 2d6 cold, magical), Damage 2d10+11 slashing plus Improved Knockdown
Melee [one action] tail +23 (deadly 2d6 cold, magical, reach 15 feet), Damage 2d10+15 bludgeoning plus Improved Push 15 feet
Draconic Frenzy [one action] The dragon makes two Strikes in any order.
Constrict [one action] 2d10+5 bludgeoning, DC 29
Breath Weapon [one action/two actions/three actions] The dragon breathes a cloud of frost that deals 5d6/10d6/15d6 cold damage in a 100-foot line/50-foot cone/25 foot emanation (DC 29 basic Reflex save). A creature that fails its saving throw is immobilized by the ice for 1 round. The damage and shape of the dragons Breath Weapon corresponds with the number of actions the dragon uses. The dragon can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds.
Ground Slam [one action] The dragon slams into the ground. It can do this if it’s on the ground or Flying within 10 feet of the ground. Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage. The dragon can then Step
Shape Ice [one action] (arcane, transmutation, water) The dragon reshapes a cube of ice or snow it touches, up to 10 feet across. Any creature standing atop the ice must succeed at a DC 27 Reflex save or Acrobatics check. On a failure, the creature falls prone atop the ice; on a critical failure, it falls off the ice entirely and is also prone.
Draconic Momentum A white dragon can move through the spaces of creatures smaller than it. When a white dragon moves, it pulls any creatures it has grabbed along with it.
Ice Climb A white dragon can climb on ice as though it had the listed climb speed. It ignores difficult terrain and greater difficult terrain from ice and snow and doesn’t risk falling when crossing the ice.
Arcane Innate Spells DC 27, attack +19; 2nd obscuring mist (at will); 1st gust of wind (at will)
Any thoughts? Comments? I would love some feedback on this, as well as your own ideas as to how to make dragons more interesting.
Fellow draconophile writing. I actually support reducing the variety of true dragons into one European and Asian equivalent, respectively (for personal worldview and logistics tracking purposes). Typed in below are a haphazard mixture of some crunch and some lore.
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Both kinds of the newly classified true dragons would follow a CR 5 Medium Dragonling (new term), CR 11 Large Young, CR 17 Huge Adult, then CR 23 Gargantuan Ancient growth pattern.
They are immune to Acid, Poison, and their major element, plus paralysis and sleep.
Enhancing their breath weapon choice, both types may start breathing their "fuel" in the form of acidic bile starting with Dragonling, Young ones capable of vaporizing it into poisonous gas, then gaining the 3rd and 4th breath choices upon reaching the next two stages.
Their bites will still keep some of their intended elemental damage dice, though.
And finally, although both subspecies will gain immunities to acid and poison while no longer having actual weaknesses, any attempt they make trying to build up resistance/immunity for cold damage and environment will be cut by half (cold immunity treated as 30 -> 15 for this purpose; and cold environment improvement is ignored 1 step).
First, European-esque dragons get to hog the name Wyrm as their subspecies name.
They still tend to be of any evil alignment (exceptions exist), and have Greed for all things valuable as their major flaw (so bribery has a slim chance of buying survival if you are unlucky enough to cross one while underleveled).
Their favored extra languages learnt post-Common include Abyssal, Ignan, Infernal, Protean, and Terran (their love of material richness should make them hate the omnicidal Daemons).
My personally favored body type for them is the 4 limbed version; specifically the Hobbit film version (blame Weta Digital for making me ditch the 2 decades old image of 6 limbed ones, Smaug was too badass to resist).
This will make swiping with claws do something like sink 10 feet if used at least once during airborne per turn; in return they also gain sufficient burrow/climbing speed, which all in all gives them the common nickname of Chthonic Dragons.
While they aren't amphibious they will have exceptionally long Hold Breath time.
Wyrms may breath out in the shape of a cone, regaining their archetypical fire breath starting with the adult stage, and Ancient ones will gain negative energy as their final option.
Second, my version of Asian-esque dragons are rechristened as Myrw (pronounced [mirɯ] or [miǝr]), taken from the old Korean term for them while also written as an anagram for the Wyrm.
While they are usually of any good alignment, their fatal flaw of Pride means that any (actually meant) major insult to their dignity will likely vaporize the perpetrator right on the spot.
Their favored languages learnt post-Common include Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Requian, and Utopian.
They still may only fly supernaturally, but now can glide down even if an antimagic environment is forced upon; this ability gives them the common nickname of Empyrean Dragons (not to be confused with the Empyreal Lords).
They are amphibious now, taking cue from their RL lores of usually doing business underseas when not flying up to reach the celestial realm.
They keep their antler gore attack in return for having no wings for flight.
Myrws breathe out energy in the shape of a line, their main element being electricity (as a minus to E.dragons' plus) which can be breathed out starting with Adult stage, and finally culminating as excessive positive energy for Ancients.
----
Well, that's what I have inside my head for my closer-to-perfection view of d20 dragon lore. It was actually fun writing all that down!
I like what you've done with it! Maybe instead of keeping the breath weapon as a 1d4 recharge, maybe make it so it can't use its breath weapon for a number of rounds equal to the number of actions it used. So it could use its 1 action breath every round, or it could use a 3 action big blast and potentially not use it again for the rest of the fight.
Lucas Yew wrote: Fellow draconophile writing. I actually support reducing the variety of true dragons into one European and Asian equivalent, respectively (for personal worldview and logistics tracking purposes). Typed in below are a haphazard mixture of some crunch and some lore.
----
Both kinds of the newly classified true dragons would follow a CR 5 Medium Dragonling (new term), CR 11 Large Young, CR 17 Huge Adult, then CR 23 Gargantuan Ancient growth pattern.
They are immune to Acid, Poison, and their major element, plus paralysis and sleep.
Enhancing their breath weapon choice, both types may start breathing their "fuel" in the form of acidic bile starting with Dragonling, Young ones capable of vaporizing it into poisonous gas, then gaining the 3rd and 4th breath choices upon reaching the next two stages.
Their bites will still keep some of their intended elemental damage dice, though.
And finally, although both subspecies will gain immunities to acid and poison while no longer having actual weaknesses, any attempt they make trying to build up resistance/immunity for cold damage and environment will be cut by half (cold immunity treated as 30 -> 15 for this purpose; and cold environment improvement is ignored 1 step).
First, European-esque dragons get to hog the name Wyrm as their subspecies name.
They still tend to be of any evil alignment (exceptions exist), and have Greed for all things valuable as their major flaw (so bribery has a slim chance of buying survival if you are unlucky enough to cross one while underleveled).
Their favored extra languages learnt post-Common include Abyssal, Ignan, Infernal, Protean, and Terran (their love of material richness should make them hate the omnicidal Daemons). This will make swiping with claws do something like sink 10 feet if used at...
This all sounds super sweet! Do you have any stat blocks for any of these? It's one thing to hear about a lot of the changes, but I would really love to see a stat block for both of these. Getting to see a young version of both of these would be really cool.
Salamileg wrote: I like what you've done with it! Maybe instead of keeping the breath weapon as a 1d4 recharge, maybe make it so it can't use its breath weapon for a number of rounds equal to the number of actions it used. So it could use its 1 action breath every round, or it could use a 3 action big blast and potentially not use it again for the rest of the fight. This sounds like a great idea. I am working on an older (and larger) dragon stat block now. Some of the changes that I am considering making are as follows.
Your breath weapon change.
Replacing constrict with swallow whole for big dragons.
Potentially adding a crush and/or tail sweep attack. Both will be two action abilities.
Crush will allow the dragon to move and will force any opponent it ends its move on to make a reflex save, on a success they will take half damage and be pushed to the nearest unoccupied space, on a failure they will be knocked prone, grappled and take full damage, on a critical failure they will take double damage and also be pinned.
Tail sweep will probably just allow the dragon to strike with its tail at each creature within its reach, without taking MAP until after all attacks have been made.
The dragon I am working on will also be of a different variety, possibly a red dragon because I consider those to be at base the least evocative and interesting dragon. Mostly because there few special abilities (manipulate flames and redirect fire) will rarely see play. Also because a standard attack of opportunity, while less situational than similar abilities like twisting tail, does not feel as interesting as other dragon reactions. If you have any ideas as to more interesting reaction and/or action abilities, please feel free to share them!
So, no more reset on db after a critical hit ( draconic momentum now seems to give just trample to the dragon )?
And about ground slam, how a non flying creature is supposed to take damage?
3d6 would mean that slipping on oil or just uneven ground will kill everybody. I'd consider just giving the prone position to those who fail.
HumbleGamer wrote: So, no more reset on db after a critical hit ( draconic momentum now seems to give just trample to the dragon )?
And about ground slam, how a non flying creature is supposed to take damage?
3d6 would mean that slipping on oil or just uneven ground will kill everybody. I'd consider just giving the prone position to those who fail.
Ground slam is an ability that normal white dragons have. That ability is in fact one of the few things that I did not change. As written it does only affect targets on the ground. I am not quite sure what your issue with the damage is, some clarification there would be helpful in letting me answer your question.
The change to draconic momentum is largely personal preference. As written I felt like the ability could lead to some very strange issues (see my example about the dragon and the commoner in my first post). There was also another issue that I encountered when adding riders to a dragons attacks, specifically with the grapple rider. As written a creature, no matter how large and strong, is unable to move with a creature or object that it has grappled. My new draconic momentum allows dragons to not only move through the spaces of smaller creatures, but it also allows them to drag along grappled creatures. This allows a dragon to snatch up and fly around with creatures it has grappled, which I find appropriate considering that doing exactly that has been a staple of dragon tactics for most of D&D/Pathfinders history.
In your post says
Quote: Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage. Which means not flying creatures.
Rocs have the following ability:
Snatch A roc can Fly at half Speed while it has a creature grabbed or restrained in either or both of its talons, carrying that creature along with it.
Could just tweak this as a base.
Grankless wrote: Rocs have the following ability:
Snatch A roc can Fly at half Speed while it has a creature grabbed or restrained in either or both of its talons, carrying that creature along with it.
Could just tweak this as a base.
Good point. Already making changes.
HumbleGamer wrote: In your post says
Quote: Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage. Which means not flying creatures.
I believe the intention of the ability is for it to only affect creatures on the ground.
Here comes the next dragon!
Adult Red Dragon (Creature 14)
Common CE Huge Dragon (Fire)
Perception +26; darkvision, scent (precise) 140 feet, smoke vision
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Orcish
Skills Acrobatics +23, Arcana +25, Athletics +29, Deception +25, Diplomacy +25, Intimidation +27, Stealth +23
Str +7, Dex +3, Con +6, Int +3, Wis +4, Cha +5
Smoke Vision. Smoke doesn’t impair a red dragons vision; it ignores the concealed condition from smoke.
AC 37; Fort +28, Ref +25, Will +26; +1 status to all saves vs. magic
HP 360; Immunities fire; Weaknesses cold 15
Dragon Heat (arcane, aura, evocation, fire); 5 feet, 3d6 fire damage (DC 33 basic Reflex save)
Frightful Presence (aura, emotion, fear, mental) 140 feet, DC 33
Smokescreen [reaction] (arcane, fire); Trigger The dragon is the target of a ranged attack. Requirements The dragon is aware of the attack and has a free wing; Effect The dragon flexes a wing and creates a cloud of smoke. The dragon is treated as if they were hidden for the purposes of resolving the triggering attack, so normally the attacker must succeed at a DC 11 flat check to target them. The dragon also gains a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against the triggering attack.
Attack of Opportunity [reaction] Jaws only.
Speed 50 feet, fly 150 feet
Melee [one action] jaws +29 (deadly 4d6 fire, magical, reach 15 feet), Damage 3d12+15 piercing plus Improved Grab
Melee [one action] claw +29 (agile, deadly 4d6 fire, magical, reach 10 feet), Damage 3d8+15 slashing plus Improved Knockdown
Melee [one action] tail +29 (deadly 4d6 fire, magical, reach 20 feet), Damage 3d10+15 bludgeoning plus Improved Push 20 feet
Draconic Frenzy [one action] The dragon makes two Strikes in any order.
Swallow Whole [one action] (attack) Large, 3d10+15 bludgeoning plus 4d6 fire, Rupture 25
Breath Weapon [one action/two actions/three actions] (arcane, evocation, fire) The dragon breathes a cloud of fire that deals 4d12/8d12/12d12 fire damage in a 140-foot line/70-foot cone/35 foot emanation (DC 36 basic Reflex save). The area affected by the breath weapon is covered in thick scorching smoke that lasts for 1 round, with the effects of an obscuring mist spell. Any creature that ends its turn inside the area takes 2d12/4d12/6d12 fire damage (DC 36 basic Fortitude save), a creature that fails its save is sickened 2. The damage and shape of the dragons Breath Weapon corresponds with the number of actions the dragon uses. The dragon can’t use Breath Weapon again for a number of rounds equal to the number of actions it used.
Ground Slam [one action] The dragon slams into the ground. It can do this if it’s on the ground or Flying within 15 feet of the ground. Each creature on the ground in the dragons space or within 15 feet must succeed at a DC 36 Reflex save. A creature that fails this save falls prone and takes 4d6 bludgeoning damage. The dragon can then Step.
Draconic Momentum. A dragon can move through the spaces of creatures smaller than it, and can end its movement in a space occupied by smaller creatures. A dragon can move at half speed while it has a creature grabbed or restrained, pulling any creatures along with it.
Arcane Innate Spells. DC 35, attack +27; 4th suggestion (at will); Cantrips (6th) detect magic, read magic
Justpassingthrough wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: In your post says
Quote: Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage. Which means not flying creatures.
I believe the intention of the ability is for it to only affect creatures on the ground. I tried to read it again and I am at loss.
what does mean
"It can do this if it's on the ground Flying within 10 feet of the ground"
If it's on the ground, how can it also be flying within 10 feet of the ground?
...
As for the upgraded dragon, did you try some simulation ( 4 characters vs the dragon ) to compare it to the normal one?
Like running a roll20 fight where you move both dragon ( old stats and then new stats ) and the party, trying to see differences in terms of outcome, damage, fight duration, etc...
The primary thing I could think of ( without have tried this out ) is that without the normal combo
jaws + momentum + db
you are going to deal way less aoe damage, but probably more spike damage on a single target.
Oh right, I almost forgot.
Frightful presence, imo, should be meant to be really a presence
Quote: Regardless of the result of the saving throw, the creature is temporarily immune to this monster’s Frightful Presence for 1 minute. Why not making it everlasting?
Every round you will face the dragon's mighty presence, and because so you will have to deal with it.
HumbleGamer wrote: Justpassingthrough wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: In your post says
Quote: Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage. Which means not flying creatures.
I believe the intention of the ability is for it to only affect creatures on the ground. I tried to read it again and I am at loss.
what does mean
"It can do this if it's on the ground Flying within 10 feet of the ground"
If it's on the ground, how can it also be flying within 10 feet of the ground?
...
As for the upgraded dragon, did you try some simulation ( 4 characters vs the dragon ) to compare it to the normal one?
Like running a roll20 fight where you move both dragon ( old stats and then new stats ) and the party, trying to see differences in terms of outcome, damage, fight duration, etc...
The primary thing I could think of ( without have tried this out ) is that without the normal combo
jaws + momentum + db
you are going to deal way less aoe damage, but probably more spike damage on a single target.
Oh right, I almost forgot.
Frightful presence, imo, should be meant to be really a presence
Quote: Regardless of the result of the saving throw, the creature is temporarily immune to this monster’s Frightful Presence for 1 minute. Why not making it everlasting?
Every round you will face the dragon's mighty presence, and because so you will have to deal with it. To answer your question about ground slam, there is supposed to be an "or" in there. So the dragon can use the ability if it is on the ground OR flying within 10 feet of the ground.
About the frightful presence, that is the way that Paizo has decided to do it, and with good reason. Frightened gives a penalty to all checks and DCs (meaning almost everything), and only on a critical success would someone not be at least frightened 1. Forcing everyone within its aura to save every turn means that everyone in the fight will be permanently debuffed, combined with its already high statistics and the tight math of PF 2e, is asking for a TPK. I get where you are coming from thematically, and agree with you that it would be better if it was persistent, but some things just have to slide because of the necessity of having the game be reasonably balanced.
Your analysis of how the dragon will function in combat is likely correct. I do not have Roll 20 so I do not have any easy way to simulate such an encounter, but the possibility of extreme burst damage is a real one, as is the less AOE damage. Unfortunately, I am largely reduced to theory crafting and my experience watching other people play and discuss mid to high-level play in PF 2e. If you are concerned about the burst damage, I suggest removing draconic frenzy as a starting point. If you wish for more AOE damage, than slightly increasing the wyrms breath weapon damage should do the trick.
There are other factors to consider as well. Both of the stat blocks above are simply more powerful than normal PF 2e dragons, if only slightly. This was a consequence of first my attempt to make dragons more interesting (thus adding riders onto there attacks) and second my attempts to change dragons up so they could work well in the three action economy of PF 2e. Also, the hit points of both of the dragons have been increased slightly from there base levels. Overall if you were to put one of these dragons against a normal pf 2e dragon, or put both of them against a party of adventurers, I all but guarantee that my design here will outperform a normal dragon in a combat encounter.
Justpassingthrough wrote: Lucas Yew wrote: (my old post) This all sounds super sweet! Do you have any stat blocks for any of these? It's one thing to hear about a lot of the changes, but I would really love to see a stat block for both of these. Getting to see a young version of both of these would be really cool. They are my lifetime project, along with reclassified outsiders, giants, fey, and the like! ;)
As for my personal phylosophy of making stat blocks with as less math error as possible verisimilitude-wise, this even takes longer even with all those examples in the Bestiary and GMG for reference...
By the way, yeah, why did I forget about the super convenient 5~6 recharge mechanic of 4/5E...?
Lucas Yew wrote: Justpassingthrough wrote: Lucas Yew wrote: (my old post) This all sounds super sweet! Do you have any stat blocks for any of these? It's one thing to hear about a lot of the changes, but I would really love to see a stat block for both of these. Getting to see a young version of both of these would be really cool. They are my lifetime project, along with reclassified outsiders, giants, fey, and the like! ;)
As for my personal phylosophy of making stat blocks with as less math error as possible verisimilitude-wise, this even takes longer even with all those examples in the Bestiary and GMG for reference...
By the way, yeah, why did I forget about the super convenient 5~6 recharge mechanic of 4/5E...? The 4/5E recharge mechanic is elegant, simple, and in my opinion, is something they should have used in PF 2e, but that conversation is for another thread.
Making stat blocks is actually rather easy in PF 2e once you get down to it. I find that the big reason this is the case is that I can actually trust the numbers when making monsters, something that is unique to this edition of the game. In every previous edition of D&D and Pathfinder, the numbers simply do not function at high levels. Even 4e starts to break down at the highest levels, with well build parties being able to dish out damage in the upper hundreds (if not thousands) per round while having enough attack bonus that they will never actually miss, and defenses so formidable that no existing monster can reliably hit them. These breakdowns require that the GM spend most of their time when creating a monster simply trying to get the numbers to a place where they can challenge the PC's. So far PF 2e does not have that issue. This allows the GM to spend most of their time figuring out the monster's abilities rather than spend hours on end crunching raw numbers and comparing them to the PC's until they finally are satisfied with the results. I can see having to modify numbers for certain groups, a group with three members who have access to heal for instance, will likely require me to increase monster damage somewhat in order to make an encounter actually threatening. Generally, the numbers actually work in this edition, which is a huge relief to me.
Back on topic, I would still love to see at least draft statistics for your dragons. Archives of Nethyse has the full monster creation rules for reference, following the guidelines there should take care of the numbers, allowing you to focus on finding ways to implement all of the abilities that you want your dragons to have.
By the way, I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply to my thread and has left feedback for me. All of your ideas have helped me to improve the dragon stat blocks and spot potential issues with my designs. If you have any other ideas or opinions on dragons, please, by all means, share them!
Working on a gargantuan dragon now, if anyone has any input I would love to hear it!
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