It could also be a straight battle oracle.
They effectively have rage (-1 AC, +6 damage, extra HP) as their major curse.
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It's really tricky to convert something as broad as 'Prestige Class X'. The big advantage of doing specific characters is that you know exactly what parts of the class are mechanically and thematically important to that specific character, whereas something that broad is much trickier.
So what do you want from the character, both in terms of theme and mechanics? Because the answer may vary pretty widely depending on those things. If what you want is primarily Oracle plus Rage, then Mellored's suggestion of just going Battle Oracle is probably correct, while if what you want is Barbarian but with some Oracle flavor, I'd give very different advice depending on the flavor in question.
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And once again, sorry for no new conversions in a while (including the Ironfang Invasion ones), higher level ones take more time and I've had little of that.
When I get back to them, I'll probably also be doing some canonical Golarion NPCs, since I just got Lost Omens Legends and some of those characters beg to be statted (I've already got some neat ideas for Ardax Whitehair and Kevoth Kul).
Combat-wise, I'll probably want him to be primarily melee, but still capable of casting if necessary (for attacking at range or overcoming/taking advantage of resistances/weaknesses), though mostly his spells will be utility. (I really liked the combo of having incendiary aura from the flames mystery with the draconic rage ability that makes my weapons do fire damage.)
Mechanically however, I'm not really sure what would work best. I just kinda had an idea in my head with only a loose direction in which to go. I've never built a PF2 character that multiclasses into a spellcasting class from a non-spellcasting class, and the one character I built that did the opposite didn't seem to work as well as I wanted.
Thematically his backstory is as follows:
He is from Varisia, and probably at least half Shoanti (not decided on whether to be full human or half. Shouldn't affect the build overmuch either way I don't think). He starts having these visions and fits of rage, and so eventually he goes to the Stone of the Seers in Magnimar (haven't decided whether he lived there to begin with or out with a Shoanti clan, but don't think it super matters much for the build) to get help, since they specialize in abjuration and divination, and specifically train oracles. With their help, he can finally see more in his vision and discovers where he needs to go. Start Age of Ashes.
So basically the only thing I'm married to is getting that same rage prophet feel. I don't even care too much if I don't end up using oracle (though I'm not sure what would replace it), though I do want to keep the fire/dragon thing going.
I appreciate any thoughts you might have, and those who have already given theirs.
Battle Oracle really seems the way to go here. With Divine Access you should be able to poach some appropriate fire or dragon spells. I suppose you could go Barbarian and multiclass, but Rage doesn't play nice with casting so you'd want to focus on out of combat spells. Battle and Flame mystery both provide focus spells which are best cast at the beginning of fights anyway, but Battle is a lot easier on the action economy.
I don't think there's a way to get the dragon rage perk and major flames curse on the same character, but you can fake either or both with the right spell selection.
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If being good in melee combat is your major mechanical goal, I wouldn't go Oracle as your primary Class. Barbarian will do much better. If your intent is, instead, to do a lot of casting supplemented by melee, then Oracle of Battle is a better choice.
Going Oracle Dedication for the Flames Mystery and Incendiary Aura to combine that with Dragon Instinct is very solid mechanically (though I don't think it's a spoiler to note that, in AoA you will run into things immune to fire at a few points), and grabbing additional spells via the Multiclass Feats for healing and out of combat utility is pretty valid.
I wouldn't try to use this combo for offensive casting, though (except for maybe Whirling Flames). It's not very well suited to that on its own as you only get the Divine list and it's a poor offensive list in general, and certainly on a character not focusing on casting, to say nothing of the 'casting while raging' issue.
But really, if what you want is theme, that combination does the theme well and provides at least one very good mechanical trick (fire from Rage plus Incendiary Aura) with a Curse that doesn't effect you too badly (30 foot vision is not especially troublesome on a melee character), so I'd say your first instinct is probably right and will result in a fine character.
Wait DMW, are you saying that in an AP themed around ashes, there are actually fire-friendly creatures?!?
SPOILER ALERT, DUDE!!!
(tee hee)
Do you do 4e conversions?
This one could attack though an invisible/hidden pet, while remaining hidden in the other room, in a box, under a bunch of other boxes.
Gnome, Shaman/Rogue, Keen Eagle, Cosmic Soul
Companion Spirit (Hybrid) Option: Watcher Spirit (Hybrid)
Hybrid Shaman Option: Hybrid Shaman Fortitude
Hybrid Talent Option: Rogue Combat Talent
Rogue Combat Talent Option: Rogue Weapon Talent (Hybrid)
Arcane Agent (+2 to Stealth)
Theme: Seer
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 13, DEX 28, INT 14, WIS 22, CHA 10
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 11, DEX 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 8
AC: 43 Fort: 33 Ref: 42 Will: 36
HP: 170 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 42
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +31, Athletics +21, Insight +28, Perception +31, Stealth +47, Thievery +29
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +19, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +21, Endurance +16, Heal +21, History +17, Intimidate +15, Nature +21, Religion +17, Streetwise +15
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Seer Utility: Cast Fortune
Gnome Racial Power: Fade Away
Wizard Utility: Ghost Sound
Shaman Feature: Call Spirit Companion
Shaman Feature: Healing Spirit
Shaman Feature: Speak with Spirits
Monk Feature: Centered Flurry of Blows
Rogue Attack 1: Gloaming Cut
Shaman Attack 1: Wrath of Winter
Rogue Utility 2: Fleeting Ghost
Rogue Attack 3: Shadow Steel Roll
Shaman Utility 6: Sudden Restoration
Rogue Utility 6: Chameleon
Keen Eagle Attack 11: Winged Spirit Strike
Keen Eagle Utility 12: Hunting Eagle
Rogue Attack 13: Fitting Demise
Rogue Utility 16: Hide in Plain Sight
Keen Eagle Attack 20: Flurry of Spirit Talons
Shaman Utility 22: Natural Rebirth
Shaman Attack 23: Spirit of the Ram
Cosmic Soul Utility 26: Merge with the Cosmos
Rogue Attack 27: Perfect Sniper
FEATS
Level 1: Monastic Disciple
Level 2: Fading Spirit
Level 4: Spirits of Stealth
Level 6: Ki Focus Expertise
Level 8: Light Blade Expertise
Level 10: Fluid Motion
Level 11: Nimble Spirit
Level 12: Mobile Spirit
Level 14: Shadow Skulk
Level 16: Backstabber
Level 18: Midnight Blade Student
Level 20: Hybrid Talent
Level 21: Untraceable
Level 22: Nimble Blade
Level 24: Skill Focus (Stealth)
Level 26: Epic Resurgence
Level 28: Reserve Maneuver
Level 30: Weapon Focus (Light blade)
ITEMS
Shadow Master Ki Focus +6 x1
Lightstep Slippers (epic tier) x1
Dagger x1
Shadowflow Mantle Armor +6 x1
Shadow Band (epic tier) x1
Assassin's Cloak +5 x1
Girdle of the Umber Hulk (epic tier) x1
Lenses of the Luminary (epic tier) x1
Serpentine Bracers (paragon tier) x1
Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier) x1
====== End ======
Maybe an invisible witch familiar that can cast spells?
Any good invisible summons?
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Do you do 4e conversions?
This one could attack though an invisible/hidden pet, while remaining hidden in the other room, in a box, under a bunch of other boxes.
I never played enough 4E to be very familiar with the system, and am completely unfamiliar with the Shaman Class.
That said, with the new Familiar stuff in the APG, you can come close to this with a spellcaster taking the Familiar Master Archetype (they need Familiar Conduit from Familiar Master, plus Share Senses), plus Invisibility on their spell list (so they can cast it on their Familiar). It gets a lot better if they're a 12th level Witch and can get Familiar's Eyes (since Share Senses only works for 1 minute out of 10).
The big limitation of this is that you need line of effect to the Familiar, which rather prohibits the boxes, but it does allow you to cast through an invisible pet, which is, I think, as close as PF2 gets to this at the moment.
I never played enough 4E to be very familiar with the system, and am completely unfamiliar with the Shaman Class.
Cross between summon/familiar, that provided some buffs for allies near it. If it got killed, you took some damage but could summon another one.
So familar that had some light champion abilities.
But I used it as a remote caster..
That said, with the new Familiar stuff in the APG, you can come close to this with a spellcaster taking the Familiar Master Archetype (they need Familiar Conduit from Familiar Master, plus Share Senses), plus Invisibility on their spell list (so they can cast it on their Familiar). It gets a lot better if they're a 12th level Witch and can get Familiar's Eyes (since Share Senses only works for 1 minute out of 10).
The big limitation of this is that you need line of effect to the Familiar, which rather prohibits the boxes, but it does allow you to cast through an invisible pet, which is, I think, as close as PF2 gets to this at the moment.
Oh, nice.
Imp + Familiar Conduit + telekinetic projectile would pretty darn close.
Any way to mix in add Silent metamagic?
Or any good non-verbal spells that I could stay hidden with?
How about silent metamagic + summmon an invisible stalker?
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Sadly both other metamagic and summoning run into serious action limitations (as casting through the familiar is an extra action every time you do it), but if they have Independent they can move after casting (you spend all three actions casting through them, but they still have one to move).
Sadly both other metamagic and summoning run into serious action limitations (as casting through the familiar is an extra action every time you do it), but if they have Independent they can move after casting (you spend all three actions casting through them, but they still have one to move).
I wasn't trying to summon an invisible stalker though the familar (though that would cool). Just seeing if there was a way to quitely summon one, then sent it into the other next room.
Also, Personal Blizzard wins here. 1 action somatic, and not obvious where it came from. So I can do it from another room and still be unnoticed. And persistent damage works well for this setup.
Incidentally, my friend, don't sweat the Prisoner's of the Blight stuff. I finished book 5 last night. :) I used most of the suggestions you gave me, with a few exceptions for the Commando abilities. That fight wound up being quite short, though, as the party hit the all of them with a Vampiric Ensanguanation, which I reasoned the hobgoblin's armor wouldn't shield the molds from, and it basically one shot all of them. They just chatted up Oreille and traded for her McGufin, and then Arlantia wound up being a surprisingly easy fight for even the very spent party. They used a couple of heightened heroism scrolls and the monk got a very lucky crit out the gate.
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I'm glad things worked out well. :)
I'll definitely be back to this thread at some point, I've just been busy in an ongoing way and high level stuff (which is what all my current ideas tend towards even leaving aside the Ironfang Invasion stuff) takes more time.
If anyone has something lower level, I can probably do that a bit quicker.
Another of my favorite 4e ones...
An invisible Battlemind. Basically, penalizing/punishing the enemy for not attacking you + hiding.
So some combination of Champions Reaction + Dutiful Challenge + Invisibility + Very Sneaky?
Would Glimpse of Redemption or Liberating Step break invisibility?
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Glimpse of Redemption is gonna run into table variation, as the rules on what is a 'hostile action' are a tad vague and GM dependent and it imposes an active ongoing penalty on the enemy (though even then it'd work with 4th level invisibility). Liberating Step should be fine no matter what (at least until level 9 when it starts dealing damage, then you too need 4th level Invisibility).
So what you need is a way to give a Champion the Invisibility spell, and also something to do that doesn't break invisibility, yes. Doable from very low levels as a 'team build' with one character casting Invisibility on their Champion buddy. It's harder to set up all by yourself.
Glimpse of Redemption is gonna run into table variation, as the rules on what is a 'hostile action' are a tad vague and GM dependent and it imposes an active ongoing penalty on the enemy (though even then it'd work with 4th level invisibility). Liberating Step should be fine no matter what (at least until level 9 when it starts dealing damage, then you too need 4th level Invisibility).
So what you need is a way to give a Champion the Invisibility spell, and also something to do that doesn't break invisibility, yes. Doable from very low levels as a 'team build' with one character casting Invisibility on their Champion buddy. It's harder to set up all by yourself.
Would it be better to be a champion/caster, or caster / champion?
And are there any other (non-hostile) spells / feats that would help? Forbidding Ward + Sactuary seems like good options.
Hmm... maybe Bard / Champion with inspire defense?
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Personally, I'd go with the Bard with Champion Dedication. They can do this full concept as early as level 7 (level 6 is fine, but 7 is where you get 4th level Invisibility), which is a lot earlier than the Champion with Bard Dedication can really pull off the trick, and has a lot more options for making the party better without becoming a target.
Personally, I'd go with the Bard with Champion Dedication. They can do this full concept as early as level 7 (level 6 is fine, but 7 is where you get 4th level Invisibility), which is a lot earlier than the Champion with Bard Dedication can really pull off the trick, and has a lot more options for making the party better without becoming a target.
I'm not worried about dealing damage. Just going for an invisible protector.
Sanctuary + invisibility (2) + sneaking would be plenty of defense.
Any other ways to protect people?
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Depending on GM ruling, Glimpse of Redemption might count as an 'attack' (well, a 'hostile action' to be specific), which is why I mention the 4th level Invisibility.
As for protecting people, any debuff effect does a good job of that (though those would definitely be 'hostile acts'), and Bard has lots of those. Defensive buffs like Resist Energy are also good. Inspire Defense is also great.
I can stick with Liberating Step.
Would Bon Mot or Goblin Song be "hostile acts"?
Obisk Shalehammer is my next big challenge, and a high level mesmerist is tough one. Seems like some kind of rogue/bard combo, but I'm not sure a great option exists among PC things. I bet there's some appropriate monster and NPC abilities that could be poached. If you know of any, let me know.
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Mostly, I'd just make him, effectively, a 16th level Bard for casting purposes with a solid, but not exceptional, Save DC (so High for level 16, pegging it at about 38), but then give him the following instead of any actual Bard class features/feats (well, maybe Steady Spellcasting):
- Decent, but not exceptional, combat stats, including Sneak Attack.
- Custom Reactions based directly on his Mesmerist Tricks (specifically, one each for Astounding Avoidance, Free In Body, and Spell Anticipation...I'd just up his HP a little rather than worry about Psychosomatic Surge)
- A free action Feint effect to duplicate Misdirection (possibly with limited use...he'd have lower attack bonus if it's not limited, but I'd probably not bother with the limitation anyway),
- One action 'Touch Treatment' that counteracts negative effects as an 8th level spell.
- A 'Hypnotic Stare' effect as a free action that imposes...probably Frightened 3. Some condition at value 3 anyway, on a single target for a single round. This effectively gives him Extreme Save DC, but that's about standard for a level 16 NPC with no other Extreme stuff.
-Good skills mirroring his PF1 ones (so something like +35 Deception, +25 Intimidation, +28 Mercantile Lore, +25 Occultism, +30 Society, +28 Stealth, +32 Thievery, along with +30 Perception), including Extreme Deception for his level.
-Ability score modifiers of around Str +0, Dex +1, Con +4, Int +3, Wis +4, Cha +7
-Loot including a Circlet of Persuasion, a very good magic Chain Shirt, a magic dagger, and little else. I might also add a couple of doses of weeping midnight poison. Using one dose of that on his first physical attack would definitely suit his stated tactics perfectly.
What do you think of picking some reaction based spells to use for those tricks? Spell Turning for Spell Anticipation, Foresight for Astounding Avoidance? That kind of thing. Stuff like that and Drop Dead seems pretty on brand.
I'm almost tempted to just build him as a PC, since skill feats are relevant to a social character like this, but it probably isn't worth it. Especially if I cherry pick spells across multiple lists.
I'm also not sure what to do about Programmed Image. There doesn't seem to be an existing spell sophisticated enough to use for his escape plan. I'm thinking I might just hand wave that it is a rare spell the players can't get anyway, and just having it do what the plot wants it to do.
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What do you think of picking some reaction based spells to use for those tricks? Spell Turning for Spell Anticipation, Foresight for Astounding Avoidance? That kind of thing. Stuff like that and Drop Dead seems pretty on brand.
Spell Anticipation does something pretty specific, ditto Astounding Avoidance, and both are easy to reflect mechanically in PF2 (one Reaction casts Warp Mind, the other moves him...neither are complicated). Given that they're easy to reflect mechanically, I don't really see the percentage in imperfect replacements.
I'm almost tempted to just build him as a PC, since skill feats are relevant to a social character like this, but it probably isn't worth it. Especially if I cherry pick spells across multiple lists.
You can just add Skill Feats to an NPC if you like. That's what I'd do if it becomes relevant. In fact, that's what I intend to do with some of my 'high level Golarion NPC' builds whan I get around to those (Ardax Whitehair 100% has 'Biographical Eye' and a +30 Society bonus, explaining his knack for spotting spies and infiltrators perfectly, and my stats for him will reflect this, just for example).
That's a lot easier than making him as a PC, especially given his not really being any PC Class.
I'm also not sure what to do about Programmed Image. There doesn't seem to be an existing spell sophisticated enough to use for his escape plan. I'm thinking I might just hand wave that it is a rare spell the players can't get anyway, and just having it do what the plot wants it to do.
I'd give him a Simulacrum of himself, as per the Ritual of the same name. That duplicates the effect in question pretty well. It does mean he needed help to make it, but he's a con man, so that's entirely plausible, and it's still Rare, but has the advantage of being able to be recognized by the PCs. I'd probably say he critically succeeded in making it, too, which is plausible enough.
Depending on GM ruling, Glimpse of Redemption might count as an 'attack' (well, a 'hostile action' to be specific), which is why I mention the 4th level Invisibility.
As for protecting people, any debuff effect does a good job of that (though those would definitely be 'hostile acts'), and Bard has lots of those. Defensive buffs like Resist Energy are also good. Inspire Defense is also great.
Here's what I go at the moment.
Catfolk Changling/ Bard - Kinda surpised cat has one of the best defense buffs, but also the right stats.
14 Str, 12 Con, 8 Wis, 16 Dex, 10 Int, 18 Cha
1: Cat's Luck, Maestro (Lingering Composition)
2: Champion Dedication, Battle Medicine
4: Inspire Defense
5: Mist Child (Expanded Luck if Changling is not available)
6: Champion Reaction
8: Deity Domain (Protection)
9: Shared luck
10: Aura of Courage
12: Inspirational Focus
13: Caterwaul
14: Advanced Domain (Duty)
16: Quick Block
18: Eternal Composition
20: Perfect Encore
Spells
1: Sanctuary, Bless, Ventriloquism
2: Invisibility, Blur, Resist Energy
3: Heroism, Haste
4: Fly,
5: Shadow Siphon
6: Scintillating Safeguard
7: Energy Aegis
8: Disappearance
How does Ventriloquism interact with Inspire Defense?
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Personally, I'd go with the Bard with Champion Dedication. They can do this full concept as early as level 7 (level 6 is fine, but 7 is where you get 4th level Invisibility), which is a lot earlier than the Champion with Bard Dedication can really pull off the trick, and has a lot more options for making the party better without becoming a target.
This makes me think of the build I imagined for a buffer extraordinaire : CG Human Cleric of Ketephys (grants Invisibility) going into Champion Dedication at 2nd and Bard dedication at 9th. With Syncretism at 1st level through Natural Ambition if you want another domain that is not on Ketephys' list.
Here's a query... I'm going to be running those Ironfang Influence events soon. Could I get your opinion on how I've statted up the relevant actors? I used the listed PF1 characters to determine the DCs, so they are a little all over the place. But generally the lower levels are tied to characters that should be easier to convince, so I think this works out.
I haven't really decided on the item rewards beyond the lance and the pack, but I do like those.
WESLEN GAVIRK
NG MEDIUM HUMAN HUMANOID
Male Human Ranger 11
Perception +24,
Will +19
Discovery DC 23 Forest Lore, DC 26 Nature, DC 28 Perception
Influence Skills DC 29 Diplomacy, DC 31 Survival, DC 34 Deception
Influence 3: Weslin begins organizing his militias to execute a series of hit-and-run raids to disrupt Ironfang forces and draw out their numbers. He also informs the PCs of a hidden cache near the Phaender (see area A1 on page 17) that they can access when they Assault the Ironfang Legion garrisoned there. The cache contains a Voyager's pack.
Background An esteemed warrior of the Nirmathi people, Weslen holds sway over the nation’s fiercely independent militias. Appearance This man’s face bears a few scars, salt and pepper hair, and a pointed beard. He dresses as a simple woodsman. His demeanor is calm, but his bloodshot eyes betray too many sleepless nights. ________________________________________
Resistances Weslen has spent his whole adult life driving invading forces of Molthune out of his lands. All DCs to Discover or Influence him increase by 2 if there is a Moltuni presence at the summit.
Weaknesses Weslen favors honest dealings with simple folks and gravitates towards druids, rangers, and the like. Such PCs get a +2 circumstance bonus on their checks with him.
Personality Weslen favors the company of other woodlands folk and those who make their own way in the world. He is a quiet man with watchful eyes and seems to shy away from the more gregarious personas at the gathering.
Goal Weslen wants the legends he’s heard of the PCs’ heroism to be true, but he is a skeptical man accustomed to his soldiers’ boasting. He needs to see evidence of the PCs’ prowess and morality before potentially handing over the lives of his militias.
GOSSAMER
CN TINY FEY
Female Atomie Duelist 14
Perception +25,
Will +25
AC 39
Discovery DC 30 Nature, DC 32 Perception
Influence Skills DC 30 Acrobatics or Performance, DC 35 Deception or Diplomacy
Influence 3: On Gossamer’s advice, Gendowyn dispatches a large force of dryads and satyrs to harry Ironfang messengers and scouts. In addition, Gossamer gifts the PCs with 50 +3 goblinoid bane arrows.
Background Gossamer is a loyal soldier of the Accressiel Court and attends the war council as Gendowyn’s proxy. Appearance This miniscule, green-skinned humanoid wields a needle-thin rapier. A pair of dragonfly wings holds the wee creature aloft, and her eyes are solid yellow like spotlights.
________________________________________
Resistances Gossamer’s short attention span makes it difficult to use prior service to sway her. Attempts to do so raise DCs by 2. What have you done for me lately?
Weaknesses Gossamer is more inclined to listen to big jobs who talk with their fists. Once per day, a PC can try to land a Strike on her in a duel (AC 39) to lower her DCs by 2 for the day.
Personality Weslen favors the company of other woodlands folk and those who make their own way in the world. He is a quiet man with watchful eyes and seems to shy away from the more gregarious personas at the gathering.
Goal While she is eager to aid the PCs, Gossamer is wary of allying with any other humanoids, especially the Nirmathi who log and trap in the Fangwood.
SANTILLA SAVROS
LN MEDIUM HUMAN HUMANOID
Female Human Prophet of Kalistrade 16
Perception +28,
Will +30
Discovery DC 30 Society, DC 35 Perception
Influence Skills DC 30 Mercantile Lore, DC 38 Deception or Performance, Diplomacy 40
Influence 3: If the PCs influence Santila, she lends her small private army to the nation of Nirmathas. She also offers a sample of her wares: four rings of minor energy resistance, one each for acid, cold, electricity, and fire
Background An arms merchant and a devout adherent to the Prophecies of Kalistrade, Santila has amassed her fortune by selling to both sides of the Molthune-Nirmathas conflict. Appearance This elderly woman has a peculiar but opulent manner of dress and carries herself with unmistakable poise and composure. ________________________________________
Resistances Santilla is not much for sentiment. It has poor resale value. Attempts to leverage it increase her DCs by 2.
Weaknesses Santila appreciates a good metaphor in speeches or negotiations.
Personality On the surface, Santila is arrogant, though most of this is an act to give her an edge in negotiations.
Goal Santila attends the summit because of its potential for profit and little more. She has no stake in Nirmathas’s safety beyond its value as a steady client
GENERAL LORD KATRA SEBINE
LN MEDIUM HUMAN HUMANOID
Female Human Investigator 9
Perception +23,
Will +21
Discovery DC 21 Society, DC 26 Perception
Influence Skills DC 21 Architecture or Legal Lore, DC 29 Crafting, DC 31 Diplomacy, DC 36 Deception
Influence 3: General Lord Sebine can muster some military aid, but more importantly, she can broker a temporary truce between Molthune and Nirmathas, allowing Nirmathas to focus solely on the Legion. If the PCs are respectful, she also confides in them her family history with the Ironfang Legion (see the Sebine’s Shame sidebar on page 10).
Background Katra is an ambitious politician and has set her eyes on becoming Molthune’s next imperial governor. She cares deeply for her people and is frustrated that the rest of Molthune won’t move faster to help her fight back now that the Ironfang Legion has crossed the border into her province.
Appearance A tall woman steps forward with an air of confidence, her uniform marking her as a general lord—one of the heads of the Molthuni state.
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Resistances Santilla is not much for sentiment. It has poor resale value. Attempts to leverage it increase her DCs by 2.
Weaknesses Katra is easily swayed by her patriotism and ambition. Anyone hearkening back to when Molthune and Nirmathas were still one country fighting Chelish rule earns her favor.
Personality Reserved and observant, Katra is very aware of the conflict between her nation and Nirmathas. When faced with adversity, she remains calm and exhibits grace.
Goal Katra Sebine has no hope of becoming imperial governor if she loses her province to goblinoid invasion, and she hopes she can spin an alliance with Nirmathas as a bold and decisive action for the good of all Molthuni.
SIR DAQ SONTINE
LG MEDIUM HUMAN HUMANOID
Male Human human paladin of Iomedae 14
Perception +22,
Will +26
Discovery DC 30 Perception, DC 32 Society
Influence Skills DC 26 Warfare Lore, DC 31 Religion, DC 33 Deception, DC 36 Diplomacy
Influence 3: Daq leads a regiment of mounted knights into Nirmathas to assist the war effort. In addition, he presents the PCs with his grandmother’s +3 radiant lance.
Background An honored member of the Knights of Ozem, Daq grew up in northern Nirmathas and has long worked to persuade his fellows to assist their neighbors to the south.
Appearance A tall woman steps forward with an air of confidence, her uniform marking her as a general lord—one of the heads of the Molthuni state.
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Resistances Daq takes the truth very seriously. Any attempt to use Deception against him treats failure as a critical failure, and if you roll a critical failure that PC cannot Influence him again.
Weaknesses Daq is faithful and proud of the Knights of Ozem. Anyone discussing the tenets of the Inheritor’s faith or the leadership of the Knights of Ozem finds Daq enraptured.
Personality A passionate man who enjoys the company of other overbearing personalities, Daq wants to be at the center of any discussions.
Goal Daq wants to help Nirmathas turn back the Legion, both because he cares for the nation’s people but also because a goblinoid nation on Lastwall’s southern border would force the Knights of Ozem to split their resources and would further draw their attention from their holy mission.
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When converting characters, you should generally reduce their level by 1, as PF2 level equates to PF1 CR, and the CR of most NPCs is their level-1, not their level.
Beyond that note, I'll need to look through the encounters in question in more detail to give an opinion, and I have game in less than an hour, so expect something maybe tomorrow.
When converting characters, you should generally reduce their level by 1, as PF2 level equates to PF1 CR, and the CR of most NPCs is their level-1, not their level.
Beyond that note, I'll need to look through the encounters in question in more detail to give an opinion, and I have game in less than an hour, so expect something maybe tomorrow.
Yeah, that's what I've done for actual combatants, but these folks aren't gonna be used for combat anyway and as is their levels go as low as APL-7, so it seemed like reducing levels further would make things too easy. I've also got 5 PCs, so I probably already need to figure out a way of boosting the challenge, like increasing the number of required influence points.
Now that the APG is out...
I got one that has been bouncing in my head for a bit that one of my players plays in a 1E game.
Name:Rufus the Magnificent
Race:Half-Elf
Class(es):Cleric(Evangelist), PrC Evangelist
Deity:Calistria
Party Role:Buffing via inspire courage and discordant voice
Secondary role:Party Face with a focus on bluff through feats like deception, and always having a potion of glibness on hand.
Equipment:Full plate(1 level fighter dip) and tower shield. Whip for occasional damage through spell storing a harm spell.
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Here's a query... I'm going to be running those Ironfang Influence events soon. Could I get your opinion on how I've statted up the relevant actors?
Okay, looking at those I agree with you for the most part structurally, but I'd make the following changes to the specific character stats, personally:
I think you're underselling the kind of stats the leader of a country should have in PF2. +19 is a Low Will Save even for his level, and +24 Perception is only okay, High being typical. I'd up his Perception to +26, and Will to at least +22 and more likely +24. That's Extreme Perception and Moderate or High Will Save for his level, which seem better. Those would obviously increase his DCs appropriately.
Gossamer:
I'd probably increase her Perception as well (to +28 or so) but that's probably about it.
Santila Savros:
Probably no real changes. This version looks good.
General Lord Katra Sebine:
I'd note that, while a level 9 character in combat, she's level 12 in negotiation, and give her at least a +25 in both Perception and Will (probably no more than that in Will). She's the only member of this conference I'd do that for, but it is an option in PF2, and seems appropriate when converting an Investigator.
Sir Daq Sontine:
I'd up his Perception to +28, and likely his Will Save to boot. He's supposed to be hard to lie to, and those are within the High range for 14th level, and thus perfectly reasonable stats for him to have.
So, short version, I think you're understating the stats of most of them. They're lower level than the PCs, sure, but they're also the people sent to this, and I'd expect them to all have High or Moderate in both Perception and Will for their level, but tending towards the high end, and Extreme Perception on Weslen seems mechanically sound on a Ranger and thematically good.
In terms of gear I'm a lot less sure. As I've mentioned before, gear rewards and particularly custom magic items are definitely my weakest area in terms of PF2 rule.
I got one that has been bouncing in my head for a bit that one of my players plays in a 1E game.
Name:Rufus the Magnificent
Race:Half-Elf
Class(es):Cleric(Evangelist), PrC Evangelist
Deity:Calistria
Party Role:Buffing via inspire courage and discordant voice
Secondary role:Party Face with a focus on bluff through feats like deception, and always having a potion of glibness on hand.
Equipment:Full plate(1 level fighter dip) and tower shield. Whip for occasional damage through spell storing a harm spell.
Honestly? I think just going Bard with the Sentinel Archetype and the Shield Block General Feat does this pretty much from 3rd level onward (and he can have Medium Armor even at 1st via General Training, and gets Heavy Armor at 2nd, but doesn't get Shield Block until 3rd). Go Maestro and have Calistria as his Muse.
Maybe grab Cleric Archetype and some of the spellcasting Feats for that as he rises in level for condition removal, if he cares about that. Or, if CG, he could grab Champion Multiclass instead of Sentinel and grab Healing Hands for some extra non-combat healing.
Really a pretty solid build one way or the other.
Weslen Gavirk:
I think you're underselling the kind of stats the leader of a country should have in PF2. +19 is a Low Will Save even for his level, and +24 Perception is only okay, High being typical. I'd up his Perception to +26, and Will to at least +22 and more likely +24. That's Extreme Perception and Moderate or High Will Save for his level, which seem better. Those would obviously increase his DCs appropriately. .
Yeah, I just used a veteran reclaimer as a statblock. The low will DC is definitely not befitting a leader... but my thought was Weslen also really wants to be convinced, so a lower DC for these particular checks felt appropriate. I dunno. You're definitely correct that he shouldn't be that susceptible to general will effects, but I'm not sure how high the Influence DCs are, which is ultimately what the stats matter for.
General Lord Katra Sebine:
I'd note that, while a level 9 character in combat, she's level 12 in negotiation, and give her at least a +25 in both Perception and Will (probably no more than that in Will). She's the only member of this conference I'd do that for, but it is an option in PF2, and seems appropriate when converting an Investigator.
What are you basing her being level 12 off of? I agree she should be good at what she does, but I also figured she wants the PC to convince her even more than Weslen does.
Sir Daq Sontine:
I'd up his Perception to +28, and likely his Will Save to boot. He's supposed to be hard to lie to, and those are within the High range for 14th level, and thus perfectly reasonable stats for him to have.
Yeah, that makes sense. I just used a champion NPC statblock as a point of reference here... Daq is eager to join the fight against the Legion, but not necessarily to put others in charge of his forces, I suppose.
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Yeah, I just used a veteran reclaimer as a statblock. The low will DC is definitely not befitting a leader... but my thought was Weslen also really wants to be convinced, so a lower DC for these particular checks felt appropriate. I dunno. You're definitely correct that he shouldn't be that susceptible to general will effects, but I'm not sure how high the Influence DCs are, which is ultimately what the stats matter for.
I mean, true, but I think that's better covered by reducing the DCs than his stats. He is currently lacking a low DC Lore option, which seems like it should maybe be in his stat block, now that I think on it.
What are you basing her being level 12 off of? I agree she should be good at what she does, but I also figured she wants the PC to convince her even more than Weslen does.
Investigators out-skilling other Classes in both editions and the DCs on the checks to effect her in PF1 being as high as most other people's. Her DCs are higher in general than Weslen's, for example.
Yeah, that makes sense. I just used a champion NPC statblock as a point of reference here... Daq is eager to join the fight against the Legion, but not necessarily to put others in charge of his forces, I suppose.
That sounds right, yeah.
Welp.
I decided at that point that he would have already stolen the Shard and left the Simulacrum in his place. They used Discern Location to find it as soon as they realized it was gone. But they also saw his Simulacrum in his room and opted not to confront him until they had the Shard back.
I had bumped his level up to 17 to make him a tougher solo fight, and he worked well enough to terrify the party. But what really made it fun was the Simulacrum suggestion. Thank you for that. I had the party find him "knocked out" on the floor of his bedroom. Since it used Obisk's incredible Deception DC, the party had a helluva time seeing through the illusion. Even True Seeing didn't work, and they wound up becoming convinced for a bit that it was a Total Recall situation-- that the Simulacrum was a real boy, and then even when they remembered having fought Zanathura's Simulacrum they started to believe that the copy had no idea what was going on and actually had earnest intentions. It was a hoot.
I need to throw out all of the Obisk events, and the PCs will have an easier time without him working behind the scenes. (Though I think the DCs being higher the next day seems reasonable with everyone being a little freaked out.) But it was all worth it for those Simulacrum Shenanigans.
I need to get Fort Phaender converted next. I think the Ironfang Honor Guards are the next big head challenge. They show up in several encounters, but their build and strategy doesn't really work in PF2 terms. I was thinking of making them Bo Staff wielders (since their art shows them as standard bearers for some reason) with some Retributive Strike type reactions. But I haven't really figured out specifics.
Edit: Actually, I don't really see why they should have any monk features. Their tactics basically amount to standing next to their charge, so all that mobility isn't really doing anything. I think building them closer to polearm paladins makes them better bodyguards.
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I'm pleased that things went well and my suggestion proved useful and entertaining. :)
As for the Ironfang Honor Guards, from a mechanical perspective, you don't have to choose, since they're NPCs. I'd probably leave them with a high base movement for reasons I'll go into later. I'd also leave them with Flurry of Blows for the same reason, and to allow them to use more actions to do things to protect their charge.
And I definitely agree that making their defenses of their charge based on Retributive Strike makes a lot of sense. I'd probably also give them something like Bodyguard's Defense, probably as only one action due to their higher level.'
In fact, what I'd do is give them Bodyguards's Defense as a single action, then give them a 'Bodyguard's Retribution' Reaction that works like Retributive Strike, but only to defend the person they're using Bodyguard's Defense on, and also reduces the victim's Speed by 5 feet for one turn. That duplicates some of their PF1 stuff pretty well, and makes a lot of sense to me.
I'd likely also give them a two action activity to Move/Attack/Move, but with the limitation that the total movement can't be greater than their normal movement (which, as noted, I would make pretty high). I think that's the intent of Spring Attack on the PF1 version, and I see no reason they can't dart out, attack, then return to their charge in PF2 as well. Making it two actions leaves them with one for the very necessary Bodyguard's Defense.
I would also give them a Reach weapon, for better use with Retributive Strike and their Spring Attack equivalent, but perhaps not one they can Flurry with, incentivizing them to use unarmed attacks to actually deal with opponents who get in close.
As for the Ironfang Honor Guards, from a mechanical perspective, you don't have to choose, since they're NPCs.
Oh, I know, but I like to try and use existing abilities as a frame of reference, and I was looking at PC abilities for inspiration because there aren't a ton of NPCs focused on defending others.
And I definitely agree that making their defenses of their charge based on Retributive Strike makes a lot of sense. I'd probably also give them something like Bodyguard's Defense, probably as only one action due to their higher level.
...Except that one of course. Good call. I had been considering the hobgoblin Formation ability as a way to more passively enact a similar defense, but I'm not sure which I prefer.
I would also give them a Reach weapon, for better use with Retributive Strike and their Spring Attack equivalent, but perhaps not one they can Flurry with, incentivizing them to use unarmed attacks to actually deal with opponents who get in close.
Wouldn't agile unarmed strikes already encourage them to mix it up?
I'd likely also give them a two action activity to Move/Attack/Move, but with the limitation that the total movement can't be greater than their normal movement (which, as noted, I would make pretty high). I think that's the intent of Spring Attack on the PF1 version, and I see no reason they can't dart out, attack, then return to their charge in PF2 as well. Making it two actions leaves them with one for the very necessary Bodyguard's Defense.
Good call.
I'm contemplating shifting the focus a bit towards keeping enemies away from there charge in the first place, inspired by feats like Stand Still and Tangled Forest Rake. Focusing on keeping enemies at a distance through zone control feels appropriate as a monk, a bodyguard, and a reach user. I was thinking maybe giving them a second reaction based off a dragon's Twisting Tail-- penalty to hit, but more likely to disrupt movement if it does than Stand Still. That plus some sort of Brutish Shove esque thing feels right.
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Oh, I know, but I like to try and use existing abilities as a frame of reference, and I was looking at PC abilities for inspiration because there aren't a ton of NPCs focused on defending others.
True, just pointing out you can mix and match. :)
...Except that one of course. Good call. I had been considering the hobgoblin Formation ability as a way to more passively enact a similar defense, but I'm not sure which I prefer.
I'd give them both. Bodyguard's Defense is a buff to another character, while Formation is a self buff the person they're guarding might not have. I might have their version of Bodyguard's Defense give a Save bonus as well, just for symmetry.
Wouldn't agile unarmed strikes already encourage them to mix it up?
Yeah, but not to the same degree, and it wouldn't set up the same dynamic as in PF1, where you have to choose between suffering their hit and run attacks, or getting into melee and getting full attacked. Flurry does a much better job of reflecting that, and sounds fun to me.
Good call.
Thanks. :)
I'm contemplating shifting the focus a bit towards keeping enemies away from there charge in the first place, inspired by feats like Stand Still and Tangled Forest Rake. Focusing on keeping enemies at a distance through zone control feels appropriate as a monk, a bodyguard, and a reach user. I was thinking maybe giving them a second reaction based off a dragon's Twisting Tail-- penalty to hit, but more likely to disrupt movement...
That seems like a potentially cool option, yeah, especially with the aforementioned Reach weapons (and I'd definitely have it be a glaive or halberd since those fall under Hobgoblin Weapon Familiarity). This is also, in a different way, what I'm sorta going for with the Flurry thing. It's a strong disincentive to get close, and I like those in a bodyguard.
Do you have any opinions on Troops? I have converted a few but not in a while. I basically use Swarm statblocks as a reference point and then maybe decrease their splash weakness. I'm looking at the Magehunter right now, and thinking they will probably inflict some kind of stupefied effect on a failed reflex save. I'm debating if I want to give them Stalwart, or if getting critical successes on saving throws will be too demoralizing to fight.
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I have not yet done any Troops, though I agree that the Swarm traits are basically where you want to start working from.
I would probably give them Stalwart. They're under-leveled as compared to the PCs so their Saves getting the Evasion bonus on a success won't feel too frustrated.
As for Stupefied, I probably wouldn't give that. I'd instead give them something based on Disruptive Stance (but always on), since that more closely mimics their abilities in PF1, but Stupefied is also a valid choice.
So I have another one from a 1E game that I can't work out how to do in 2E. A Human Investigator who uses all his talents and feats to make himself an absolute nuke to anything in 30ft. Has mutagen, quick study and amazing inspration for talents and than all the normal archery feats i.e. rapid shot, deadly aim, mutishot ect. Combined with good gear i.e. +3 bow highest +dex he can get for level and the bonus from mutagen he basically can't miss short of a 1 and with crits he has gotten 300 damage rounds before.
On top of that the 1E Investigator gets so many skills that he pretty much rolls any non Cha skill for the group always.
Obviously 2E has killed op builds like this to some extent. But if said character were to suddenly go from 1E to 2E they would go from A machine gun with every skill to a 1 shot per round with decent damage and the majority of skills.
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The one shot Investigators get every round is pretty potent with a longbow. At 20th, or just shy of it, 4d8+7 +3d6 Elemental +5d6 Precision +1d6 Bleed (from Scalpel's Point, this character should do Forensic Medicine to max out damage...and gets some healing out of it to boot) is really quite a lot of damage. The 4d8+7+3d6 Elemental+5 Precision +1d6 Bleed on a backup attack against a second target isn't quite as good, but if there are even two foes, it's a nice option to have on a miss.
You're not gonna machine gun everything, but if you max out Int you can be very respectable with that one attack. It's a DPR vs. on-level opponents of around 42 points before accounting for the Bleed, which probably adds another 7 or more, depending on various factors.
That's not Fighter level damage, but it's not half bad and leaves you with another action (for Battle Medicine, possibly). If you go decent Charisma and grab Intimidate you can do Scare To Death on top of better than that damage (since you Scare To Death after Devise A Stratagem but before attacking to impose penalties on your actual target). That's pretty solid, if stat-intensive (you need an eventual Dex to 20, Int to 24 and probably 18s in Wis and Cha).
As for Skills...well, if willing to grab Rogue Multiclass you can grab some Skill Mastery Feats and really overload on skills at the expense of investigation (which seems fine), take three of those strategically and you can be Legendary in 9 Skills (or Legendary in 7, Expert in another 6). You can also get Dread Striker to synch up with the above Intimidate suggestion, and if you do can also grab Sneak Attack (since you'll have a way to inflict flat-footed).
With Dread Striker, Sneak Attack, and Scare to Death your DPR becomes just under 64 damage per turn before Bleed (assuming you don't actually scare them to death...if you do, the Devise A Stratagem was probably wasted, but also they're dead). Well, on creatures that can be intimidated, anyway.
Feats necessary for this build are:
Investigator: Scalpel's Point, Ongoing Strategy.
Rogue Multiclass: Dedication, Dread Striker, Sneak Attack,
Skill: Intimidating Glare, Scare To Death,
Several other Investigator Feats (most notably Suspect of Opportunity and Everyone's A Suspect) also improve the action economy of this option, though it functions without them.
Prior to 15th level, the damage is a lot lower unless you have someone else to inflict Frightened, just because you won't have a 95% chance to inflict some, but a Bard with Dirge of Doom and it kicks in on all cylinders much earlier, and even prior to then it's solid, just less absurd.
I had been thinking I would just use the Scarlet Triad Enforcer for Scabvistin because there were a lot of other stat blocks in play so simplicity seems desirable. And the Stunning Retort ability seems pretty appropriate to his temperament.
Now my players have peeled off most of his body guards thanks to getting all the allies from the war summit, so I'm not sure if I should add a little more flair. I'll probably also add an elite template since he's filling the roll of boss and I have a 5 person party. (I also missed the Incapacitation tag on Banishment and let Malgra get proofed. Whoops!)
I also think I might give him a belt of giant's strength because his weapons are no longer finesse based.
Kraelos is another one that can work pretty well using PC rules, though probably shouldn't be done that way.
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If you're gonna be using a Template to get Scabvistin to level 16 anyway, I'd go with a Weak Scarlet Triad Boss rather than an Elite Scarlet Triad Enforcer (he is a Rogue, after all...it fits better). I wouldn't really worry about the 'need high Str' thing, NPC attacks can ignore that sort of down side if you feel like it, and I think that's fine here.
I'd do that plus the following changes:
Skills: Athletics +24, Deception +28, Diplomacy +24, Engineering Lore +28, Warfare Lore +28, Intimidation +30, Nature +28, Society +28, and Stealth +33.
Equipment: +2 Greater Striking Punching Dagger, High Quality Punching Dagger Greater Doubling Rings, +2 Greater Resilient Chain Shirt, Anklets of Alacrity, several utility and healing Primal consumables.
Other Stuff: Trick Magic Item Skill Feat (for Nature, give him a few Scrolls). Ditch Darting Shot and Return Fire for Attack of Opportunity, the Create An Opening Rogue Feat, and Double Slice.
I'd also peg his damage at 3d4+9, but add +1d6 Ongoing Bleed Damage, since that's thematically on point with his PF1 stats and gets the damage to about the right place.
For Kraelos I'd have to think about it, though you're right that you could do the full PC version if you like.
Double Slice doesn't mesh well with sneak attack, does it?
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Double Slice doesn't mesh well with sneak attack, does it?
Surprisingly, the math indicates that it does. Partially because you can decide which attack to apply the Sneak Attack damage to after rolling, meaning that you can double your odds of a Sneak Attack crit.
Good point. Still, I feel like if I'm gonna lean into the rogue thing I should really lean into the rogue thing, more so than the SC boss really does. Things like Deny Advantage, Debilitations, and Side Step. But then it starts approaching full PC, and meanwhile the Scarlet Triad Enforcer actually covers a lot of that thematic ground already with Dual Assault and Stunning Retort.