How do you get the 5 perception for blinded blade style at level 1?
"a level in Unarmed Fighter". I don't get how Blinded Competence would be possible (as the forth feat, you qualify for it just fine), however. If you wanted, you could have Blinded Master at 3rd level, though (MoMS1/F2).
Why can't somantic components be completed with their feet.
Because a) there's a difference between performing "a measured and precise movement of the hand" and holding a pen with your toes, and b) because casting is powerful enough as it is.
This is really going into "completely ignore any limitation that results from the disability" territory. Why should the character even look for a Regeneration spell when apparently there is no downside to the loss of the arm?
do you really want to remove and your boots during combat and might have to run. Heating the stone below their feet will become the villains favorite past time i can tell you that.
Sandals!
Why can't somantic components be completed with their feet.Because a) there's a difference between performing "a measured and precise movement of the hand" and holding a pen with your toes, and b) because casting is powerful enough as it is.
This is really going into "completely ignore any limitation that results from the disability" territory. Why should the character even look for a Regeneration spell when apparently there is no downside to the loss of the arm?
I firmly believe that you can challenge a character without penalizing a player. Nothing anyone has said will change my mind on that.
In answer to your question, know much about Phantom Limb Syndrome? It is very resistant to treatment but, regeneration may just be a cure. If that is not ripe for roleplay, and character development, I don't know what is.
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So Minigiant what was the point of the initial post to get echo chamber style responses while ignoring anything that does not fit the OP.
In my games if a person wants to play with a disability they get the all the penalties that come with it as well.
As Derklord pointed out about using feet to cast the player can expect intelligent opponents to target either their feet directly or with effects such as acid traps etc. They don't get a free pass simply because of wanting to play the disability.
So Minigiant what was the point of the initial post to get echo chamber style responses while ignoring anything that does not fit the OP.
Actually I altered my original statement, to reflect the absolutism that it was portraying. So before you call me out, make sure you have all the facts. The fact so many people have been calling me out but unwilling to share the "penalties" they would impose, is very telling.
As Derklord pointed out about using feet to cast the player can expect intelligent opponents to target either their feet directly or with effects such as acid traps etc. They don't get a free pass simply because of wanting to play the disability.
Your examples are in lime with my statement. Challenge the character, don't penalize a player.
Grease would be an absolute nightmare for a caster who does their somantics with their feet. The same way, Silence would be terrifying for a blind character.
In Perfect conditions, and asking for a concentration check or an acrobatis check to remain standing, is just unnecessarily burdening a player, to the detriment of everybody. Asking for one when the Wizard is standing in the Grease spell is fair.
Making every attack a blind fighter make have a 50% miss chance would do the same but, giving them the miss chance inside the Silence spell is again, fair game.
How do you get the 5 perception for blinded blade style at level 1?
While I agree that there should be some negatives to playing a character with a disability need to allow for the fact that there are often ways to reduce or eliminate them. The requirements for somatic components are they have one hand free. So there is no reason to deny a one armed caster the ability to cast spells. It is also been established that having an actual hand is also not necessary. There are plenty of monsters in the book that don’t have “hands” and still cast spells.
People with disabilities also learn to adapt and figure out alternative ways to accomplish things. Those should also be factored in. If the one armed character is having his gear specially made to accommodate his only having one arm there is going to be very little he cannot do. About the only thing he may not be able to do is to wield a two handed weapon and maybe using something requiring a second arm. Even using something requiring the second arm is going to be up to the player. If the character has a stump it would be possible to attach something like a shield or even a second weapon to the stump.
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The fact so many people have been calling me out but unwilling to share the "penalties" they would impose, is very telling.
I don't know if that includes me, but just in case:
Penalty of losing an arm: You don't have that arm! Anythign that only works when you have two hands doesn't work, that's it. The rules for rods say "Unless noted otherwise, you must be holding a rod to use its abilities." CRB pg. 484, and the rules for spell components say "you must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component" CRB pg. 213, and that "you must be able to (...) manipulate the material components or focus (if any)" CRB pg. 206; thus if you only have one hand, and you want to activate a rod with it, you don't have a hand for somatic, material, of focus components. Dito when you are wielding a weapon or heavy shield with the hand instead of activating a rod. A light shield can be temporarily released and afterwards re-gripped (both free actions) to allow casting without issue.
Penalty of being blind: What the rules say. "It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone." CRB pg. 565 Since the rules also say "Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.", I would remove the acrobatics check, and lower or remove the skill penalties (on a case-by-case basis) for people with long-lasting blindness. Removing the miss chance or AC penalty would require specific training, which is represented by feats like Blind-Fight. I'd also let you learn braille (or a self-made system like that) for a point in Linguistics.
Penalty of being deaf: What the rules say. "He takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Perception checks based on sound, takes a –4 penalty on opposed Perception checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components." CRB pg. 566 Since again the rules say some of these drawbacks can be overcome, I'd lower/remove (depending on the time spent deaf) both -4 penalties and the spell failure chance.
Penalty of losing a leg: Depends on the crutches or prosthetics used; no one goes adventuring without either.
I firmly believe that you can challenge a character without penalizing a player.
I don't see anything in this thread that penalizes the player. And what are you talking about "challenge"? What has that even to do with the topic? Saying you can't wield a rod and perform a somatic component on a one-armed character is not a challenge, nor is it a penalty to the player. It's a mechanical penalty to the character, and unless you can give me a very good explantion to the contrary, one that I feel is absolutely justified.
So there is no reason to deny a one armed caster the ability to cast spells.
Literally no one is suggesting that, or anything like that. Minigiant seems to be waging a war against people that don't even exist (at least not in this thread). No one has suggested a strength penalty for losing an arm, or being blind imposing a penalty on the perception check to hear something.
People with disabilities also learn to adapt and figure out alternative ways to accomplish things.
Exactly. They learn. They don't get it magically granted to them as the universe's way of compensating them. They have to invest time and energy into learning to adapt and to figuring out alternative ways. We're asking for nothing more than for that to be true for the game, too.
Sandals, too funny Derklord
Everyone's a critic. Be glad I didn't mention the white socks of +4 concentration that go with the sandals!
There are even magical sandals to wear!
The spells he started with are all capable of being done with one hand as he would have had the time to research those. New spells will have to be researched or face the penalty.
Er, what? Every spell can be cast with one hand. And every spell that doesn't solely consist of vocal component requires an empty hand.
What class and level is the character?
Penalty of losing an arm: You don't have that arm! Anythign that only works when you have two hands doesn't work, that's it. The rules for rods say "Unless noted otherwise, you must be holding a rod to use its abilities." CRB pg. 484, and the rules for spell components say "you must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component" CRB pg. 213, and that "you must be able to (...) manipulate the material components or focus (if any)" CRB pg. 206; thus if you only have one hand, and you want to activate a rod with it, you don't have a hand for somatic, material, of focus components. Dito when you are wielding a weapon or heavy shield with the hand instead of activating a rod. A light shield can be temporarily released and afterwards re-gripped (both free actions) to allow casting without issue.Penalty of being blind: What the rules say. "It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone." CRB pg. 565 Since the rules also say "Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.", I would remove the acrobatics check, and lower or remove the skill penalties (on a case-by-case basis) for people with long-lasting blindness. Removing the miss chance or AC penalty would require specific training, which is represented by feats like Blind-Fight. I'd also let you learn braille (or a self-made system like that) for a point in Linguistics.
Penalty of being deaf: What the rules say. "He takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Perception checks based on sound, takes a –4 penalty on opposed Perception checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components." CRB pg. 566 Since again the rules say some of these drawbacks can be overcome, I'd lower/remove (depending on the time spent deaf) both -4 penalties and the spell failure chance.
Penalty of losing a leg: Depends on the crutches or prosthetics used; no one goes adventuring without either.
These are all very fair and reasonable for an able bodied character suddenly become blind/deaf etc.
They are however completely useless as far as enabling a player to player a character that has that condition permanently. Those penalties are crippling for a temporary effect, they would make a character nearly unplayable if permanent
Exactly. They learn. They don't get it magically granted to them as the universe's way of compensating them. They have to invest time and energy into learning to adapt and to figuring out alternative ways. We're asking for nothing more than for that to be true for the game, too.
And why can't that be before level 1? By making a players character arc all about overcoming their handicap, you are saying to everyone that the only thing about them, is that they are disabled
Actually I altered my original statement, to reflect the absolutism that it was portraying. So before you call me out, make sure you have all the facts. The fact so many people have been calling me out but unwilling to share the "penalties" they would impose, is very telling.
Which is not helped by your style of posting in an very antagonistic manner. It's all good to change the OP of the thread. Beginning it the way you did certainly does not help the point your trying to make imo.
I would freely accept an all penalties given to me by the rules and or/DM within reason. Except I am very uncomfortable playing such characters as I have huge amount of respect for the those with disabilities and rather not even roleplay having one as I cannot even know remotely know or feel what someone with a disability goes through in real life.
It's like all the gamers in rpgs who dump stat Charisma or a similar stat yet somehow not only want no penalties to social skills they want to be as good if not three times as better as the players who make the equivalent of the party face.
Your examples are in lime with my statement. Challenge the character, don't penalize a player.
How exactly is does one challenge a player who wants to roleplay a disability without any negative aspects of said disability challenging. As others have pointed out the loss of a limb is very traumatic and requires time to heal and a period of adjustment. From what I can see it's wanting to roleplay a disability without any negatives for the character.
Grease would be an absolute nightmare for a caster who does their somantics with their feet. The same way, Silence would be terrifying for a blind character.
With the exception of Silence the rest of those spells are annoying and nightmare for any player at the table. Not just the caster using his feet.
In Perfect conditions, and asking for a concentration check or an acrobatis check to remain standing, is just unnecessarily burdening a player, to the detriment of everybody. Asking for one when the Wizard is standing in the Grease spell is fair.
Again roleplaying a disability without actually suffering the effects of the disability how is that fair for someone who took a low Charisma character or low Wisdom character who not only roleplays yet also accepts and incorporates the penalties into his character.
Again not at my tables and imo not may other tables either. It's like wanting to make a Superman clone who is vunerable to Kryptonite yet when exposed to it suffers no penalties. Or the Blind Fighter have the same chance to hit as the Fighter who can see.
Why not have constant do overs when the dice roll bad or when the player insists on doing something that is poor tactical choice while we are at. For what because it's not fair. If Fighter XYZ insists on kicking open locked doors eventually he will do it to one covered in Explosives Runes and not a getting a do over by the DM.
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They are however completely useless as far as enabling a player to player a character that has that condition permanently. Those penalties are crippling for a temporary effect, they would make a character nearly unplayable if permanent
Then I suggest never playing an Oracle with the Clouded Vision curse or any Oracle ever as they suffer some decent penalties Clouded vision:
Your eyes are obscured, making it difficult for you to see.
EFFECT
You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.
At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.
At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet.
At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.
It is the price they pay for having felt the touch of the god sometimes before becoming one.
It comes across as entitlement to want to play a disability yet when told that one has to suffer the penalties of the disability that it is unfair. Especially if someone else at the table is willing to do both.
And why can't that be before level 1? By making a players character arc all about overcoming their handicap, you are saying to everyone that the only thing about them, is that they are disabled.
Again wanting benefit without the penalties. Using Superman again remove not only his vulnerability to Kryptonite, also to magic. Their personality and to a large extent their class and how a player roleplays a character at first level make the character what they are. If I ever ran an Oracle with Clouded Vision I can guarantee that the character would be known more than their disability and instead the overall character.
It comes across as entitlement to want to play a disability yet when told that one has to suffer the penalties of the disability that it is unfair. Especially if someone else at the table is willing to do both.
And it comes across as Ableist by saying that one must have these penalties.
And why can't that be before level 1? By making a players character arc all about overcoming their handicap, you are saying to everyone that the only thing about them, is that they are disabled.
Again wanting benefit without the penalties. Using Superman again remove not only his vulnerability to Kryptonite, also to magic. Their personality and to a large extent their class and how a player roleplays a character at first level make the character what they are. If I ever ran an Oracle with Clouded Vision I can guarantee that the character would be known more than their disability and instead the overall character.
What benefit without penalties?
A Blind Fighter being more affected by Silence than Darkness, is a trade off.A below knee amputee with a metal leg, is a lot more scared of that rust monster.
A caster using their leg for somantics is a lot more vulnerable on uneven ground.
These are real penalties
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Class doesn't matter, as all spells have -5 on a check roll if just using one hand.
Where does it say that?
And why can't that be before level 1?
It can... by spending traints and the first level skill ranks, feat(s), and class level. Because that's what is used to represent backstory, and training and experience, respectively, in Pathfinder.
Those penalties (...) would make a character nearly unplayable if permanent.
Only those for being blind (the penalties for losing an arm or being deaf are definitely not character breaking), and even then only if no measurements are taken to overcome them. Orodhen linked to a character outline for a blind character that can move at full speed without a check, only takes the skill penalty on Acrobatics, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth, can pinpoint enemies within melee reach via Blindsense, suffers no penalties on attacking those, nor any penalties on being attacked by them, and all that at 1st level!
You may percieve yourself on some rightous crusade against the evil people discriminating against people with disabilities here, but in reality, you are the one who is insulting those people. Because what all your posts boil down to is that disabilities are only minor inconveniences that can be handwaved away. Every post you make is a slap in the face of every person with a disability struggling to overcome the downsides even after years of hard work and training. Which is most of them.
And it comes across as Ableist by saying that one must have these penalties.
How exactly is one Ableist against a fictional character both on paper and in one imagination. It's less about people with a actual disabilities and more because you want to have something that negatively affects the character without penalty.
It's like having Arachnophobia told that the campaign is centered around Drow and Spider like creatures, told by the DM that they will not change the encounters. Yet still join the game then accuse the DM and the rest of the table of being irresponsible for triggering one phobia.
Your trying to make this into a real world argument about people with real disabilities except it's not really about that and more wanting to play negative aspects of one character without any penalties.
Even then at higher levels with the right magic many real life disabilities can be removed from the character. To bad we cannot do that in real life
What benefit without penalties?
A Blind Fighter being more affected by Silence than Darkness, is a trade off.
A below knee amputee with a metal leg, is a lot more scared of that rust monster.
A caster using their leg for somantics is a lot more vulnerable on uneven ground.These are real penalties
Not even remotely penalties imo, even then highly selective and cherry picked examples and easily defeated at higher levels with the right crafting skills, feats and group tactics.
The Blind Fighter eventually has Remove Blindness cast on him as it effects both normal and magical blindness. it's a third level spell that most parties will pool their resources to have cast or wait until a party caster can access it.
The Rust Monster first has to reach the character with the missing leg. Second which will never happen because as soon as a party sees a Rust Monster or Disenchanter picture the scene from movies and TV where everyone fires at the target. No party member not just the disabled character want to be near the rust monster. Again with the right crafting feats, materials and/or spells the missing limbcan eventually be removed.
Uneven ground at first is a challenge even then the game has Floating Disk, Levitate, Fly, or if playing a smll character carried by another party member.Eventually once again with magic those penalties and condition can be removed from the character.
Pathfinder is not the real world where people with actually disabilities unfortunately do not have access to magic to cure their condition. I see you keep ignoring that and still wanting to play someone with a disability without an penalties. Even worse trying to imply that those who disagree with you are Ableist. As I asked before did you really want to have an actual discussion on the subject or simply want everyone here to agree with you and when it's not the case claim that we discriminate against people with physical disabilities.
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the blind penalty isn't as bad as I thought it would be. In our current game, my grappler warpriest was blinded in the first round of the first encounter of the first game by a witch's curse. I wasn't cured of it until the most recent game (session 5), and while the penalties are noticeable, it wasn't like I just had to sit in the corner and just cry, I still contributed to combat and to the party out of combat and it was a lot of fun to roleplay it as well.
Best part is that we were fighting some vampire spawn in a canyon and one of the characters told me to charge the spawn 20 ft in front of me, but before I could act, the new player decided to put himself right in my path, which almost resulted in him getting running power-bombed, so that was pretty funny.