Social System / Persona

[TellinCob]

I will be running WftC soon and I feel like the social system described in the Agents of Change appendix of Scion, Songbird, Saboteur us going to turn the role play into a bunch rules lawyering and meta gaming. It just seems to add a lot of apparatus to an already rules heavy game system. Did anyone else find that this was the case and if so, what did you do about it? Simplify it? Ignore it? Throwing it out and the missions that rely on it removes a lot of otherwise interesting content.

[Darrell Impey UK]

Just used it as a background thing. A few minutes work every now and then.

[Trichotome]

My players and I enjoyed it a fair amount, so it was mostly kept in unchanged. For the most part it doesn't need to be brought to the forefront all that much, and can pretty much be treated like one would downtime rules: a simple background action done to gain a simple bonus. I did do a few things to it though:

1. I made it an action as part of my revised downtime system (basically I tracked days like rounds). Players needed to spend a day to use their persona phase. It made those phase actions feel like a more active thing on their part, especially since we would roleplay out the action they took. I'd even occasionally give them small story benefits based on what they did to make them feel impactful to the plot. The other perk of this was that they could hold them for just before they did a mission, so they could prepare certain operations in anticipation of what they were about to do.

2. I buffed some of the benefits to make them a more appealing (as I did with several downtime actions). Mainly, this was aimed at the actions that earn gold, as I was running WftC as a high wealth campaign, and I've always considered the wealth scaling of downtime vs adventuring to be rather absurd. I know specifically that I changed Canny Investment to give 2d6 x 100 gp instead of just 2d6 gp, for instance. Other actions were also made to be a bit more effective than their downtime counterparts (such as gather information) to justify their existence.

3. I completely revised the Develop Persona action list in order to broaden its application. Mostly this was to make sure that every skill had something it could be used for.

My revised list:

- Build Information Network (Charm, Genius, or Subterfuge): You establish or grow a discreet network of informants. (Bluff, Disguise)
- Community Service (Sacrifice or Sagacity): You provide aid or charity to your allies or the general public. (Heal, Profession [Any], Survival)
- Create Supplies (Genius or Sacrifice): You produce various small but useful supplies for your allies. (Craft [Any])
- Daring Traversal (Heroism or Subterfuge): You embark on an impressive voyage to spread your message. (Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Ride, Swim)
- Draft Declaration (Charm or Genius): You write a legal or political document in support of your cause. (Linguistics)
- Liberate Political Prisoners (Sacrifice or Subterfuge): You help some potential allies escape capture or imprisonment. (Escape Artist)
- Locate Sympathisers (Charm or Sagacity): You seek out people who might be sympathetic to your cause. (Sense Motive)
- Give Lecture (Genius or Sagacity): You offer your expertise on a subject to an audience. (Appraise, Knowledge [Any], Profession [Any], Spellcraft)
- Organize Rally (Charm, Heroism, or Sacrifice): You gather a group to publicly voice their support for your cause. (Diplomacy, Intimidate)
- Patrol for Trouble (Sacrifice, Sagacity, or Subterfuge): You keep a vigilant eye for possible threats. (Perception)
- Secure Secrets (Subterfuge): You conceal your secrets or seek out those of your opponents. (Sleight of Hand, Stealth)
- Public Presentation (Charm, Heroism, or Sagacity): You make a performance to draw in support for your cause. (Perform [Any])
- Tame Beasts (Heroism, Sacrifice, or Sagacity): You use your affinity for animals to secure their friendship and loyalty. (Handle Animal)
- Tinker With Equipment (Genius or Subterfuge): You maintain or tune up your tools. (Disable Device, Use Magic Device)

Aside from that, it worked fairly well. The key I found was to really merge its use into the story. Their agents were living NPCs and the actions taken were played out, so it didn't feel like a pure management thing.

It did also help that I put all the math and rules onto a shared spreadsheet (Persona tab) to make it easier to follow...

[TellinCob]

@Trichotome, that's really helpful, thanks! Also thanks for the spreadsheet, definitely saved a copy of that as didn't have one so comprehensive. This is my first go round as a GM and there is a lot of extra overhead in this AP.

[Trichotome]

TellinCob wrote:

@Trichotome, that's really helpful, thanks! Also thanks for the spreadsheet, definitely saved a copy of that as didn't have one so comprehensive. This is my first go round as a GM and there is a lot of extra overhead in this AP.

Happy to be of assistance!

Fair warning, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of my personal revisions in that version, including a few of my revised system rules, so be wary that certain things may not match with the book. It's still a work in progress as I'm prepping a big pile of documents to share here eventually.

I think it's mostly additions though, so for the most part it's fine as long as you read through it first to catch the non-book stuff (and even then, feel free to use that non-book stuff too if it serves you).

[Wyran Tegus]

I'm going to second the thanks, Trichotome. These are great additions. If my group hadn't already overhauled the system in our own way, I'd advocate for this.

My group used the Persona system fairly unmodified for about half of Book 2. As we started approaching 5 ranks (enabling a bonus feat), we made our first change. As a group, almost everyone was trying to max out Charm or Subterfuge because Persuasive and Stealthy seemed far better bonus feats for the campaign than Brilliant Planner, Diehard, Dazzling Display, or Insightful Advice. Rather than replace them entirely, we expanded the list of possible bonus feats granted at 5 ranks in each Facet:

Heroism: Acrobatic, Athletic, or Dazzling Display
Subterfuge: Deft Hands or Stealthy
Sacrifice: Diehard, Nature Soul, Self-Sufficient, or Street Smarts
Genius: Brilliant Planner, Magical Aptitude, or Prodigy
Sagacity: Animal Affinity, Alertness, or Insightful Advice
Charm: Deceitful or Persuasive

We basically assigned the 2-for-1 bonus feats to a facet that seemed more or less appropriate. Being able to swap the bonus feat out for each persona phase has also made for great flexibility if we knew what was coming next.

---

We kept that for most of Book 3 before we reevaluated the system again. The higher-skill characters (Bard, Inquisitor) were near max ranks, while the lower-skill characters (Cleric, Brawler) were pretty much capped out at half. None of us minded the disparity, but it felt strange to say that this group that had been traveling together had vastly different reputations when most of what we did was essentially the same.

We were also treating the system as another element to maximize rather than doing what our characters would actually do. My Bard, for instance, is definitely a charmer, but how many damn parties can he throw? I tried to mix things up by driving legislation or arranging secret meetings, but the actions to develop persona always felt tacked on and shoehorned in. He was also developing Sagacity because Sense Motive was covered by Versatile Performance and was far higher than any of his Subterfuge options, even though storywise he was disguising himself and infiltrating noble houses, meetings, cults, etc. (I would love to say that we could avoid the crunch and metagame and avoid system mastery in favor of storytelling, but the system as written seems designed more in favor of crunch.)

We also felt that the Operations were mostly useless, with either impossible DCs (an opposed Sense Motive check against a BBEG? Come on) or effects that PCs could easily do more effectively. Sure, little bonuses can be nice, but when given the option between an Operation or an opportunity to develop persona, we almost always chose to develop unless the GM said that it was Operation time. And even then, we started making up our own Operations based on what was actually happening in the story, like coordinating efforts to smuggle a high-value target out of town. The GM set the DC, and then we rolled. We enjoyed that far more.

The Best Operation check the table ever had:

In Book 3, we encountered Lt. Gallindra Jonrek and convinced her that we were on her side. The party decided to meet with members of the Mercantile Council, with one of us disguised at Lt. Jonrek, to discuss what we knew and get more information. Meanwhile, we assigned our agents to provide distractions at different city gates while we moved the real Gallindra out of the city. One operation succeeded while two failed. Some of our agents were detained for questioning, but Gallindra made it out safely. We as players roleplayed the entire thing. We had a blast and never looked back.

The last issue that we had was that there became too many agents to keep track of. Either the player treated their agents as faceless, nameless peons who, if they were lost in the shuffle of the story no big deal (shattering immersion), or the player had spreadsheets and documents with 20+ NPCs that they (and the GM) would have to refer to if they were doing something. It became unmanageable.

---

We have since fully overhauled our approach to the Persona system. Starting off, everyone automatically progresses their Persona at the same rate based on actions they have taken in the story. [2 Starting end of Book 1, and 6 total for each Book, approximately 2 each section.] "Developing Persona" is essentially gone, now used as a guideline for how to frame our actions. When there is downtime, we might still throw a party or organize a protest, but those specific things only happen when they make sense rather than being an "It's time" moment. The GM and players discuss what they have done and agree on how their reputation has grown. Rather than maxing out specific facets because they match the skills we have, we now have a more diverse portfolio. (My Bard still has max Charm, but now Subterfuge has rightfully replaced Sagacity, and he has Genius in third place.)

Then, instead of a database of minor NPCs, each PC has an agent that serves as their primary contact for each facet for which they have at least 2 ranks. No longer does the party roll in to each new town with a caravan of over 100 people. Instead, they travel with 2-3 close agents drawn to their cause who embed themselves in the community and draw on local contacts to develop a network of people they can call on when directed. The GM can now use one of these NPCs to deliver information, and if something happens to that NPC it has a greater impact on the player.

Finally, this puts the emphasis of Persona back on Operations. While the Operations as written still exist, we now proceed with them in a more narrative sense. If there is something that we as players want to do that might be difficult for the PCs to do alone, we request an Operations phase to do it. The GM uses existing Operations as a guide to call for a given facet and set a DC, and everyone seems happier.

[There's more as well. We implemented a system where we have Facet Ranks, but we add 1/4 of the total number of facets we possess (rounded down, and capped at our character level) to have the "Effective Facet Rank". Then we expanded the max effective facet ranks to 15, adding a few abilities that should prove useful while allowing for a bit more scaling for Operations checks. I can share that if anyone is interested, but I'll admit it's a bit messy right now.]

[Zaister]

My players simply chose to ignore the persona rules completely.

[TellinCob]

I like the idea of removing the development actions. We don't play with XP either, so this would fit our play style and refocus the persona phases on "doing cool stuff." The reworked agent method is also great. I did the math and realized you weren't even being hyperbolic when you said "a caravan of over 100 people." As if the PCs aren't conspicuous enough!

[RaithRamis]

Wyran Tegus wrote:

I'm going to second the thanks, Trichotome. These are great additions. If my group hadn't already overhauled the system in our own way, I'd advocate for this.

My group used the Persona system fairly unmodified for about half of Book 2. As we started approaching 5 ranks (enabling a bonus feat), we made our first change. As a group, almost everyone was trying to max out Charm or Subterfuge because Persuasive and Stealthy seemed far better bonus feats for the campaign than Brilliant Planner, Diehard, Dazzling Display, or Insightful Advice. Rather than replace them entirely, we expanded the list of possible bonus feats granted at 5 ranks in each Facet:

Heroism: Acrobatic, Athletic, or Dazzling Display
Subterfuge: Deft Hands or Stealthy
Sacrifice: Diehard, Nature Soul, Self-Sufficient, or Street Smarts
Genius: Brilliant Planner, Magical Aptitude, or Prodigy
Sagacity: Animal Affinity, Alertness, or Insightful Advice
Charm: Deceitful or Persuasive

We basically assigned the 2-for-1 bonus feats to a facet that seemed more or less appropriate. Being able to swap the bonus feat out for each persona phase has also made for great flexibility if we knew what was coming next.

---

We kept that for most of Book 3 before we reevaluated the system again. The higher-skill characters (Bard, Inquisitor) were near max ranks, while the lower-skill characters (Cleric, Brawler) were pretty much capped out at half. None of us minded the disparity, but it felt strange to say that this group that had been traveling together had vastly different reputations when most of what we did was essentially the same.

We were also treating the system as another element to maximize rather than doing what our characters would actually do. My Bard, for instance, is definitely a charmer, but how many damn parties can he throw? I tried to mix things up by driving legislation or arranging secret meetings, but the actions to develop persona always felt tacked on and shoehorned in. He was also developing Sagacity because Sense Motive...

Yes I would be very interested if you could share how much further you went with your revision of the Persona system. My group has just finished Book 2 and they followed the pattern of just Developing Personas instead of doing any Operations.

[quibblemuch]

TellinCob wrote:

I will be running WftC soon and I feel like the social system described in the Agents of Change appendix of Scion, Songbird, Saboteur us going to turn the role play into a bunch rules lawyering and meta gaming. It just seems to add a lot of apparatus to an already rules heavy game system. Did anyone else find that this was the case and if so, what did you do about it? Simplify it? Ignore it? Throwing it out and the missions that rely on it removes a lot of otherwise interesting content.

The first time I ran this, it got very paperworky, very fast. No one really got into the persona phases, and it just became a grind of spreadsheets that was entirely too much like the least pleasant aspects of a job. Eventually, the players were so bored and frustrated they manufactured a TPK just to have SOMETHING to actually do.

Second time I'm ditching all the excess mechanics and just doing them as RP/story options.

rant:

Otherwise, the campaign starts to feel like an embodiment of Taldor--lots of red tape, lots of bureaucracy, everything takes forever. Not how I want to spend my fleeting leisure time.

The missions and whatnot I can still run--the reward for the players should be the fun of doing the thing, not watching their spreadsheet of abstractions slowly increment towards... something.

Also, I found that the whole "building an estate" thing misled at least one of the players. They thought the campaign was going to be about having the estate, being noble. So if they'd ever gotten to the next book, it would've really been a let-down.

"Hey, spend months of IRL time on this game to build yourself a noble estate and reputation and now all of that is wasted and does nothing for you because you're in a completely new city, where nobody cares that you're Lord Betany or whoever."

Also, the whole "rob the taxpayer" thing was the most ridiculous mission they'd ever seen.

"We stole the taxes back! Yay! How much was it?"

"Uh... approximately .01 percent of your party wealth."

"..."

"Yeah. But the peasants like you a fraction more than they did before!"

*players lunge across table to throttle GM for wasting their afternoon*

They were pretty pissed they could've just paid the guy what they throw around an inn in an evening, or given many times that wealth to the local peasantry.

This time around I'm going to emphasize the two-fold nature of their mission:

1. Cozy up to Meratt's nobles to sway them against Lotheed
2. Get the common folk on your side too.

I'm taking all the numbers and mechanics out of that, so there will be a subjective sense of accomplishment instead of a set of cell formulas. I know people who would be happier if all social interaction could be funneled through Excel, but my players aren't them.

[Bryan Stephens]

I have talked about agents the pcs have as more than just rolls. They are part of their entourages.

But I agree, if I had it to do over I'd rp everything

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Yeah, it started out like a good idea, but when I realized the players were not even bothering naming their own agents, it just became homework for the GM i.e. me.

Only one player tried, twice, to use his agents to do something in the background while the main party was murderhoboing.

The campaign has been on pause for about 2 years now (we switched to Strange Aeons) and I agree with most people here: I think I'll ditch it if we ever restart.