Bardic Versatile Performance

[LoomyNess]

Okay, so today I am posting a thread for the first time.

my background:

I have been playing pathfinder for about 8 years now and have spent way too many hours on both conceptual builds for fun and many others that have seen play.

the point is I have a fair bit of experience and with that usually, my group and I are pretty great at working together to understand, interpret and come to a consensus on how a mechanic in the game works. usually, the worst we get is resolved by errata or FAQ which is awesome that this is a thing.

Versatile Performance:

Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.

The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).

I am looking to get verification on how Versatile Performance works

specifically what gets added to the skills that are substituted.

example:
Perform (sing) +14 = 2 ranks + 4 CHA + 3 Class + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Prodigy

meaning

Bluff and sense motive = +14 as well

or should it be;

bluff and sense motive +9 = 2 ranks + 4 CHA + 3 Class

or some value in between

following this train of thought we then want to work out the interaction between skill focus in one of the substituted skills

example:
Perform (sing) +15 = 3 ranks + 4 CHA + 3 Class + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Prodigy

Bluff +18 = 3 ranks + 4 CHA + 3 Class + 3 Skill Focus(perform(sing)) + 2 Prodigy + 3 skill focus(bluff)

or is it again somewhere in between?

I know this has been discussed in depth before but there has never been a FAQ or Errata I am calling for action on this matter.

[Cavall]

When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus in place of its associated skill's bonus

You would have performs total bonus replace the total bonus of the other skill. Having skill focus in that other skill wouldn't matter as the skill is replaced.

So just the total. Use which ever is best of the two. They dont stack in any way, even with doubled up skill focus.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Cavall is right you whatever your bonus for the perform skill is you use that for the skill it covers. This is one of the reasons bards not rogues are the best skill based character.

You are also not going to get any response from Paizo on this or any other first edition questions.

[WabbitHuntr]

Recommended HOUSERULES for versatile performance

1)Allow ranks for the skill that versatile performance applies to, to satisfy prerequisites for feats etc.

Currently, if you have 8 ranks in Perform Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate)
and wanted to take a feat with 8 ranks in Bluff your Perform Comedy skill would not satisfy the prereqs

2)Allow automatic retraining for skill ranks affect by a newly acquired versatile performance.

ie if you have 8 ranks in bluff and then take Versatile Performance Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), you would be able to retrain your bluff ranks immediately, at no cost.

The bard is an old class and does not currently benefit from the recent advances in class design

for example

Advanced Weapon Training,PFS Legal Versatile Training (Ex):

Source Weapon Master's Handbook pg. 19
Training Link Link
The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in two skills of his choice that are associated with the fighter weapon group he has chosen with this option (see below). The fighter need not be wielding an associated weapon to use this option. When using versatile training, the fighter substitutes his total base attack bonus (including his base attack bonus gained through levels in other classes) for his ranks in these skills, but adds the skill’s usual ability score modifier and any other bonuses or penalties that would modify those skills. Once the skills have been selected, they cannot be changed and the fighter can immediately retrain all of his skill ranks in the selected skills at no additional cost in money or time. In addition, the fighter adds all skills chosen with this option to his list of class skills. A fighter can choose this option up to two times.

These are suggested houserules.....not RAW

[Melkiador]

I think I’ve even seen a developer article where they say that the skills should probably be immediately retrained, but they didn’t want to go in and change how something works.

[Derklord]

"When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus (...)" This tells you everything you need to know. Total bonus, not partial bonus, or only ranks, or whatever. Total.

Even if they did still make FAQs for PF1, they would at best tag this question as "no reply required". Because "total" means "total".

Regarding Skill Focus, there is no difference between "bonus in a skill"/"skill bonus" and "bonus on all checks involving the chosen skill". The feat description was copied from 3.5, but you can see from the short description in the feat list on pg. 116 of the CRB that it says "+3 bonus on one skill (+6 at 10 ranks)". From the Character Sheet in the CRB (pg. 570), we know that the ability mod, ranks, and miscellaneous bonuses all get added together to form the "total bonus".
Skill Focus (Bluff) doesn't get applied, because a) the feat says "Its effects do not stack.", and b) the ability says "in place of its associated skill's bonus", which does not say it's only the bonus form ranks, and thus every part of the bonus gets ignored.

[LoomyNess]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone. It is certainly reassuring that it works the way it says. I threw the second example in to see what others thought more than anything. Though I do wonder why this even became an issue. I took the duetist archetype and was going to have a butterfly or if the gm allowed it a songbird with perform as it's bonus (Wasn't worried either way).

To which he mentioned without any evidence facts or really anything, 'just remember that your familiar won't give that bonus to your versatile performs' to which I asked why and TLDR I am here trying to push for justification of actions as he's effectively house ruled it to just be your ranks + CHA + class and NO bonuses to that perform. Instead you have to get skill focus in the substituted skills which is completely opposite of what I had ever thought (thus example 2).

As a note this group rotates the gm through its players, we often switch seats and between our main gm and myself most of the rules lawyering happens away from the table to not damage the flow for the other members as we have the most knowledge and experience.

[Ferka]

Yeah, rules seem pretty clear on this one. Most people trying to pull shenanigans with this want to add bonuses for the substituted skill on top of the perform bonus. The DM would be right to shut that down. But the RAW is “When you make a skill check, you roll 1d20 and then add your ranks and the appropriate ability score modifier to the result of this check. If the skill you're using is a class skill (and you have invested ranks into that skill), you gain a +3 bonus on the check... Skills can be further modified by a wide variety of sources—by your race, by a class ability, by equipment, by spell effects or magic items, and so on." A DM can of course make house rules, but there ought to be a reason, and it shouldn’t be a surprise to a player on a major class ability.