Mordinvan |
This spell says it summons a Bearded Devil to fight a selected champion as part of a hell knight ritual. The spells says the Devil will use every means at it's disposal to kill the champion. I believe this would include using it's summon ability to bring into existence a second Bearded Devil. I have a friend who says that wouldn't happen as it is supposed to be a one on one fight. To me that seems to be pulling it's punches, as opposed to going all out. Can anyone provide meaningful advice?
Michael Talley 759 |
deal makers that follow the word of the law not it's spirit. If they agree to one on one combat, that is what you'll get. Now... dirty tricks and such, if they where not agree'd upon would end up being used.
Personally I changed the requirement for becoming a hell knight to slaying a demon instead of a devil. While training was very devil oriented.
So hunting down a powerful Demon would allow the character to return with proof to become a Hell Knight, thus many would-be Hell Knight NPC's in my campaign went to the World Wound to find and slay a demon to prove themselves worthy of the power.
that way you don't have to pull punches for a PC that wants to play a Lawful Evil version of a Paladin.
Sandslice |
This spell says it summons a Bearded Devil to fight a selected champion as part of a hell knight ritual. The spells says the Devil will use every means at it's disposal to kill the champion. I believe this would include using it's summon ability to bring into existence a second Bearded Devil. I have a friend who says that wouldn't happen as it is supposed to be a one on one fight. To me that seems to be pulling it's punches, as opposed to going all out. Can anyone provide meaningful advice?
First, we need to resolve a contradiction in how infernal challenger is statted, vs. how the effect is described.
Namely, the spell cannot possibly be a conjuration (calling) if reducing it to zero HP (or assisting the would-be Hellknight) causes it to abjure itself; that's the behavior of a conjuration (summoning) spell. Calling spells actually bring the creature, not an expendable avatar of the creature; reducing a called creature to zero HP makes it disabled or (for certain types such as undead and constructs) dead, not abjured / dispelled.
So now that we can establish that infernal challenger is supposed to be a conjuration (summoning) spell, we can apply a general rule of such spells: summoned creatures cannot summon.
As such, the avatar of a Bearded Devil appears, does its samurai challenge entrance, and has it out in an actual 1v1 with the prospective Hellknight. It can't summon, but can use every other tactic available to it.
Rysky |
Namely, the spell cannot possibly be a conjuration (calling) if reducing it to zero HP (or assisting the would-be Hellknight) causes it to abjure itself;
It can because that's a specific call out of the spell itself (there's a few other callouts for its poofing as well), specific overrides general.
Sandslice |
Sandslice wrote:Namely, the spell cannot possibly be a conjuration (calling) if reducing it to zero HP (or assisting the would-be Hellknight) causes it to abjure itself;It can because that's a specific call out of the spell itself (there's a few other callouts for its poofing as well), specific overrides general.
Bah. That is true, I suppose. I suppose it's something I'll need to ask for clarification on, since literally everything about it identifies it as summoning except the fact that it's assigned to calling.
Rysky |
Rysky wrote:Bah. That is true, I suppose. I suppose it's something I'll need to ask for clarification on, since literally everything about it identifies it as summoning except the fact that it's assigned to calling.Sandslice wrote:Namely, the spell cannot possibly be a conjuration (calling) if reducing it to zero HP (or assisting the would-be Hellknight) causes it to abjure itself;It can because that's a specific call out of the spell itself (there's a few other callouts for its poofing as well), specific overrides general.
*nods*
This spell summons a bearded devil, causing it to appear where you designate. The area within a 50-foot radius of where the devil appears is ringed with a smoldering, red glow. This area is the testing ground. To successfully cast this spell, no creature other than the devil’s challenger (see below) can be within this area while the spell is being cast.
On the round it appears, the devil identifies itself (typically by name and with a brief recitation of honors) and states it is prepared to do battle with a sole mortal champion. In the same round, either you or a creature you designate while casting the spell must identify the devil’s challenger. For the duration of the spell, the devil does everything in its power to kill the challenger. You do not control the devil or have any influence over how it conducts itself in battle, but the devil cannot leave the testing ground. Unlike with summon monster and similar spells, you cannot dismiss the devil. Rather, the conjured devil remains until any one of the following criteria is met: it is reduced below 0 hit points or otherwise defeated, its challenger is slain, its challenger leaves the testing ground, or it takes damage from any source other than its challenger. Upon any of these occurrences, the devil vanishes.
Conjuring a devil is typically an evil act. If cast for any purpose besides the administering of a Hellknight test, this spell has the evil descriptor.
The only reason it "acts" like a Conjuration (Summoning) is in these exceptions, without them the devil would simply die when slain, not poof.
Mordinvan |
deal makers that follow the word of the law not it's spirit. If they agree to one on one combat, that is what you'll get. Now... dirty tricks and such, if they where not agree'd upon would end up being used.
and states it is prepared to do battle with a sole mortal champion.
It says do battle with a sole mortal champion, not do battle ALONE with a sole mortal champion. I think you're reading something it doesn't say.
Mordinvan |
Namely, the spell cannot possibly be a conjuration (calling) if reducing it to zero HP (or assisting the would-be Hellknight) causes it to abjure itself; that's the behavior of a conjuration (summoning) spell. Calling spells actually bring the creature, not an expendable avatar of the creature; reducing a called creature to zero HP makes it disabled or (for certain types such as undead and constructs) dead, not abjured / dispelled.
You'll have to find a errata for this to be established, as written it is a CALLING
So now that we can establish that infernal challenger is supposed to be a conjuration (summoning) spell, we can apply a general rule of such spells: summoned creatures cannot summon.
Except it is Calling, not summoning, thus this is not a solution. The question is WOULD it do so, not COULD it do so. The spell as written says yes to both in my mind. I am looking for reasons it would NOT do so, and you're suggesting changing the spell, which isn't an answer to how the spell functions as written.
Meirril |
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Can anyone provide meaningful advice?
There doesn't seem to be any technical reason a Bearded Devil can't attempt to use its summon spell like ability. However, it seems to be a tactically bad choice.
The Bearded Devil is constrained to the 50' circle it is summoned into. Unless the arena includes something like a ledge the devil can teleport to, there is nothing that would prevent the challenger from reaching the devil each round.
The Summon spell like ability is defined to be like Summon Monster. Summon Monster is a full round action. If the challenger hits the devil there is a very good chance he'll blow the concentration check. Even if the challenger whiffs, the spell only has a 50% chance of success.
This also means the devil couldn't take an attack of opportunity with its glaive while casting the summons.