The spell Remove Curse (for example, from Ultimate Magic) has this power:
Recharge this card to banish a displayed card that has the Curse trait.
Great. Can I use this to remove a Scourge from the Core or CotCT sets? (All MM Scourges have the Curse trait. No Scourge in the Core or CotCT sets has any traits at all.)
My search-fu is lacking; the most relevant ruling I can find about is from the Core Conversion Guide FAQ:Mummy's Mask scourges don’t work like new scourges.
Use the Core Set’s scourge rules for new scourges and the Mummy’s Mask scourge rules for its scourges. Treat cards that banish scourges as removing them and vice versa.
I read this three times. To me the second sentence suggests that MM cards which remove Curses also remove Core Set Scourges. But I'm deathly afraid skizzerz will come along and tell me it's not so.
But surely Remove Curse can remove any Scourge, old or new, right? Else the spell is dramatically nerfed in Organized Play.
I think the second sentence in the conversion guide quote basically means to treat Remove Curse like is says "Recharge this card to remove a scourge card that has the Curse trait" when you bring it from Mummy's Mask into the Core setting. It doesn't make Remove Curse apply to non-Curse trait cards, which the scourges of Core are.
*sigh*
I'll agree this is the most-straightforward understanding.
But that renders the Ultimate Magic "Remove Curse" spell useless in any Core-based Organized Play season. (And I think a few other cards may also be similarly nerfed.*)
Paizo powers that be: is this intentional? It seems counter-intuitive, since Core's own usage of the Curse trait appears to be 'a bane which can cause a character to suffer a Scourge'.
I do realize I can use an Adventure Pack to access cards which remove Scourges. But I still think pre-Core powers which refer to Curses should apply to Core's Scourges.
*A quick perusal turns up the Witch Class deck item Staff of Curses, which removes displayed Curse-trait cards, and a role power for the Occult Adventures Mavaro.
Don't forget that there are (many) cards with Curse trait in earlier editions of Pathfinder and this spell removed them as well, not just "removed Mummy's Mask scourges". For example, Curse of the Deep in S&S.
Many? Isn't it on the order of 3 or 4 unique cards across the first 3 sets?
I agree that some Core scourges might qualify for getting removed - but definitely not all. Wounded, Poisoned, Exhausted are not really curses. Drained maybe, in some ways. Plagued definitely, if talking about Blood Veil. Dazed? I am not sure.
You've raised a solid point I had not grasped: Core Scourges are designed to be able to represent afflictions that are not brought on by a curse, and so are a broader category than Curses. Huh.
Although, I think you can't say 'this is a Curse and that's not' simply by looking at the condition: you say that Exhausted isn't a curse, and Dazed may not be, yet a character can suffer both of these by failing to defeat Core or CotCT barriers which have the Curse trait (Phantasmal Apparition can make you Frightened and Exhausted; both Mad Prophet and Evil Eye can leave you Dazed.)Is the card virtually useless in post-Core environment? Pretty much.
:(
Is it too elaborate to convert "Remove Curse" to "remove a displayed card with the Curse trait, or remove a Scourge a character suffered due to a bane with the Curse trait"?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are several barriers in CotCT adventure 5 with the Curse trait that can be displayed, which at least gives Remove Curse a purpose in a Core game, even if it's no where near as effective as it was in MM.
Also worth mentioning is that while Remove Curse won't work on Core scourges, all Core scourges at least have a power for removing themselves, which is something that MM scourges did not have.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is it too elaborate to convert "Remove Curse" to "remove a displayed card with the Curse trait, or remove a Scourge a character suffered due to a bane with the Curse trait"?
Cards don't have memories, so the only way to do this would be via a marker of some kind. Since that's an addition to the rules, I don't think it's likely.
The more likely scenario I can see is that all/some of the Core scourges are given the Curse trait via FAQ/errata. Either that or Remove Curse is added to the Core Conversion Guide to make it effective against some/all Core scourges.
As has been pointed out, though, we need to evaluate whether the above is even necessary. Pre-Core Remove Curse was necessary in Mummy's Mask because of the nature of that AP and the frequency of and interaction with Curse cards. Core has other methods for removing scourges. Could it be that this is just one of the (many) cases where a card is more or less effective in Core compared to pre-Core and that players need to construct their decks according to the needs of the AP? There are other cards/characters where this concept applies - for example, have fun playing Jirelle in any AP other than Skull & Shackles/Season of the Shackles. It might be that pre-Core Remove Curse is simply going to be a casualty of the changes in Core (I almost called it "the new edition" and then I remembered not to ;) ).
Rather than bringing all of the legacy stuff up to snuff with Core via the Conversion Guide (or FAQ/errata), I look at this as more of an incentive to create new versions of all of the CDs specifically for compatibility with the Core rules. Players with the existing CDs can still use those with the legacy APs, while future releases will be compatible with Core. That's probably better discussed elsewhere (and I think we *have* touched on the issue before) instead of hijacking this topic, however.
An interesting note:
All curses are scourges, but the reverse isn't true. We're figuring this out now, as we're starting Plundered Tombs with packet characters.
All MM curses have the scourge trait, interestingly.
So Remove Curse doesn't work on Core scourges, but Soothing Word will remove any MM curse.
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See somewhat similar thread regarding one of Koren's powers.
During Paizocon, both Tyler Beck (the online VC) and Keith Richmond (who I assume y'all know*) confirmed that Remove Curse definitely does not remove Core Set Scourges. This is by design.
(*If not, see the names on the outside of the Core Set box.)