Should a winged dragon’s flight be considered magical?

[Reksew_Trebla]

Because according to the laws of aviation, their wings aren’t big enough to generate lift for the larger sized dragons. So either we factor their immense strength score as being so strong that it also includes being able to fully counter their weight and generate lift, in which case they really should have some sort of gust of wind effect near their wings from how forcefully they flap them, or part of their flight is from supernaturalness, in which case they can’t fly in an anti magic field.

I’m not really looking for a houserule though. I typically just waive physics like this, and look the other way, hence why I’m posting this in the general discussion forum instead of the houserules one. Basically, this is just food for thought.

[Tarik Blackhands]

I dunno, should giants be considered innately magical because they violate the square cube law and thus when they step into an AMF their legs break like toothpicks?

Having played games with some obnoxious physics majors, I'm pretty firmly in the realm of letting sleeping dogs lie. Fantasy game, real world physics need not apply for my winged lizards and giant monsters.

[Quixote]

According to physics, a pegasus would need wings longer than...I believe a football field? to generate enough lift to make a horse airborne.

So no. I like my medium and up fliers to just...be able to fly. Staple of fantasy.

[Gorbacz]

Sure, but then you need to treat the rules on Perception seriously and enforce the fact that no PC can see the Sun due to the distance.

That would be a cool game.

[Artofregicide]

I mean, you do identify dragons with knowledge arcana, so there are some supernatural things going on there.

But magical flight is a specific term in Pathfinder, and represents not a lack of real world realism but the ability to fly without any sort of propulsion mechanism.

Long story short, I agree with the others.

[Rysky]

Fantasy, not magic.

Linnorms are dragons whose flight is magical because they don't have wings.

[ErichAD]

The easiest solution, if you need one.

Pathfinder feet are much smaller than real world feat, models are really made to scale. So, since a dragon is about 3 inches long, it generates more than enough lift with its wings. Giants also have no problem standing being only a couple inches tall. This also explains why fall damage is pretty universal across sizes and fairly minimal.

Or you could do something very odd like stretching the dragon's wing across its body to it's tail like a mexican free tailed bat, but with shorter wing span like a spectral bat. Then treat their apparent mass as loose hanging skin that would be stretched to wings in flight. Pancake dragons are going to feel out of place in a fantasy rather than sci-fi setting.

You could also assume that the plane's physics are magical and not the dragon's flight. Then antimagic field doesn't change anything, but plane altering magic would, which is probably fine.

[avr]

It may be magical, but making a dispel magic spell or an antimagic spell into a death zone for monsters is not a great idea IMO. If you didn't want that, what are you after?

[Cavall]

Bees arent magic and we havent explained how that works very well either.

[Ryan Freire]

A lot of assumption on the physics and gravity of 3.0 being identical to earth goes into commentary like that.

Maybe high G for golarion IS earth gravity, and low G is just lower than normal thus dragons fly and giants work.

[MrCharisma]

ErichAD wrote:

Pathfinder feet are much smaller than real world feat, models are really made to scale. So, since a dragon is about 3 inches long, it generates more than enough lift with its wings. Giants also have no problem standing being only a couple inches tall. This also explains why fall damage is pretty universal across sizes and fairly minimal.

Haha, this is cannon for all my games from now on ^_^

[glass]

Cavall wrote:

Bees arent magic and we havent explained how that works very well either.

They figured our how bumblebees fly 15 years ago.

EDIT: Even prior to that, while it was popular to say that "bumblebee flight was impossible", that was obviously not true, since they do fly. And therefore it is obviously possible by definition.

_
glass.

[Ryan Freire]

MrCharisma wrote:

ErichAD wrote:

Pathfinder feet are much smaller than real world feat, models are really made to scale. So, since a dragon is about 3 inches long, it generates more than enough lift with its wings. Giants also have no problem standing being only a couple inches tall. This also explains why fall damage is pretty universal across sizes and fairly minimal.

Haha, this is cannon for all my games from now on ^_^

Agreed, most elegant solution.

[GotAFarmYet?]

How do you know if the bones are hollow or not, made of a material that is strong but light.
Dragons have breathe weapons, so they may generate enough gas for it and like a balloon lift. As far as we know they might Fart like a jet engine

Our GM had a rule about that "Because that is how fantasy is, deal with it"

[Joey Cote]

Dragons are filled with gas and thus are lighter then they look. Its the combination of multiple lighter then air gases that produces their breath weapon effects. I think because of this dragons should get automatic levels in alchemist.

No, dragon flight isn't magical from the perspective of dispel/antimagic effecting it.

[marcryser]

All creatures size Huge and larger are actually being affected by the gravitational pull of the moon. It makes all of them slightly 'springy.' Add in wings and each is capable of flight.
Of course, you now need a table to chart the course of the moon, because fully 25% of the time those same creatures are crushed against the surface of the planet because both the moon AND the planet are pulling on them.
On planets with no moon, Dragons can't fly.
On planets with two moons, Dragons gain 30' fly speed and improve by one maneuverability category. Unless the moons are in opposite positions, in which case the dragon can always fly but doesn't gain speed and maneuverability.
Three moons allows a Dragon to hover without using their wings at all because they can ALWAYS find one of the L5 positions in which to conserve energy and loiter. Especially large and fierce dragons make their lairs in these spots.
Four moons is just silly.

[LordKailas]

marcryser wrote:

Four moons is just silly.

That explains why Galileo thought Jupiter was silly.

[GotAFarmYet?]

Nah, lets go with fake science

All creatures that fly do so because they can control the EM field with their wings. So they can align with it and float from the ground and maneuver as well as navigate.

Then of coarse there is the invisible pixie theory:
The rarely seen motley blue faerie sits on the head of the animal and places a magic cheese in front of the animal. This magic allows t he creature to fly as long as it wants the cheese. Anti-magic will effect the cheese but the creatures will is not effected so they still can fly.

See a nice clear solution...

[Dasrak]

Something that is impossible in the real-world isn't necessarily magical in the Pathfinder world. Many (Ex) abilities are quite impossible by realistic standards, but are still non-magical in game terms. Don't overthink it, this is quite literally a fantasy.

[zza ni]

i find that:
talking = free action that can be taken out of turn
tend to break physics a lot more often then dragon's wings.

yep my barbarian who never opened a book is a wiZzard! just watch me do MAGICZ!

[Cevah]

I once recalled it explained as both. Magic for lift, mundane for control. So if you de-wing the dragon, it can still fly, but with little control. Without magic, it can't fly, but can fall gracefully without damage.

.cevah