Most (all?) checks in the downtime system have results based on the total for the check, not a set DC.
I don't see any DCs associated with earning money either via the profession skill or the skilled work downtime activity. In both cases you make a check and earn an amount of money based on your check.
Profession => gain gp equal to 1/2 your check per 7 days
Down time activity => gain gold equal 1/10 your check per day
the perform skill is a bit different. You have to decide what kind of performance you're going to do. Each performance earns gp at a certain rate. Unless you are in a prosperous city the most you can even attempt is the dc 10 which is basically begging on the street.
That being said looking at the chart I can understand why the player would think they would choose the DC afterwards as the different DC levels are described in terms of how well you did with your performance. Also, the other two methods don't use DCs at all.
So, yes they do have to choose the DC upfront. Basically you can think of it as how complicated of a performance do they wish to attempt. If they pull it off the audience is more impressed. If they fail not only do they not earn any money but
Retries are allowed, but they don’t negate previous failures, and an audience that has been unimpressed in the past is likely to be prejudiced against future performances. (Increase the DC by 2 for each previous failure.)
you can't play "mary had a little lamb" and then decide after the fact that actually you played "flight of the bumblebee", because you rolled well enough to pull it off. Additionally, no matter how well you play "mary had a little lamb" audiences are only going to be so impressed.
It's a risk vs reward. If you can regularly beat a dc 20 on average you're going to be doing slightly worse than just using the normal downtime rules for skilled work. However, beating a 30 regularly generates almost 4 times as much money as a similar skilled work check would.
Analysis of the different methods
DC 10 perform = 5.5 cp (avg) per day or 0.39 gp per week
10 profession check = 5 gp (avg) per week
10 downtime check = 1 gp (avg) per day or 7 gp per week
DC 15 perform = 0.6 gp (avg) per day or 3.9 gp per week
15 profession check = 7.5 gp (avg) per week
15 downtime check = 1.5gp (avg) per day or 10.5 gp per week
DC 20 perform = 1.6 gp (avg) per day or 11.5 gp per week
20 profession check = 10 gp (avg) per week
20 downtime check = 2 gp (avg) per day or 14 gp per week
DC 25 perform = 3.5 gp (avg) per day or 24.5 gp per week
25 profession check = 12.5 gp (avg) per week
25 downtime check = 2.5 gp (avg) per day or 17.5 gp per week
DC 30 perform = 10.5 gp (avg) per day or 73.5 gp per week
30 profession check = 15 gp (avg) per week
30 downtime check = 3 gp (avg) per day or 21 gp per week
I'm looking at the downtime rules from ult camp, this is a representative quote from the skilled labor section concerning using a skill to earn gp:
"If you chose gp, divide the result of your check by 10 to determine how many gp you earn that day. For example, if your check result is a 16, dividing it by 10 earns you 1 gp and 6 sp that day (round to the nearest silver)."
This type of reference to the result of a check, rather than a DC shows up alot in these rules.
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Okay, what specifically is the player rolling for what purpose?
Edit: realized my brevity could come across as curt or rude, not the intention. I'm seeking better clarity so than I might be able to provide more useful input.
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Okay, think I'm on track now, in the OP I read "down time" so fixated on the downtime systems in ult campaign. If we are talking about basic uaes of perform skill as laid out in the CRB then I agree that DC is set by what the player declares they are attempting before they roll.
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Kailas, its not about money. I am running a game using downtime with a home rule where people earn experience based on the skill dc. It seems to be good so far, except I always thought DC was set before the roll. Another player has the same interpretation as java, it seems.
Your home rule, you rule it.
For a question about home rules Advice or General Discussion are better than the rule section of the forum.
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No what?
No, it is your home rule but you don't think you can rule on it
or
No, you don't want to use the Advice and General discussion forums?
I don't see how we can answer how something work based on the official rules when it is not part of the official rules.
Personally, for fairness, I would say that everyone should use the same mechanic, so if they have to choose a target DC before the roll if they use Craft (armorsmith) the should choose a DC before trying a Perform (string) check.
But that is my opinion, not RAW.
You are the GM, you have implemented the home rule, you get to decide how it works.
Agreed.
There are instances of using skills without a set DC, as quoted above. Those instances seem more similar to the one the OP described than more typical DC-based skill usage. So that might be the impression your player is operating under.
But ultimately, it's your rule. It works how you want. And it's your game, so all rules work how you want.
Also, I would suggest not asking people to "try a little harder to understand" what you're saying; if your willing audience is having difficulty understanding in order to help YOU answer a question YOU asked, it's up to YOU to clarify.
If your emotions from other discussions you're having are spilling over into this one, that's displacement and is in no way anyone else's responsibility to deal with or "be mindful" of. If you're struggling to deal with the frustrations of miscommunication, it may be best to resolve your other, more aggravating, discussion or walk away from it and clear your head before you continue with this one.
I think the best thing you could do is post the text relating to this houserule.
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ok.... let me try to answer your question then.
am I right or am I wrong? is profession a situation in which the dc scales with your roll? or is there some other answer entirely?
Kailas, its not about money. I am running a game using downtime with a home rule where people earn experience based on the skill dc. It seems to be good so far, except I always thought DC was set before the roll. Another player has the same interpretation as java, it seems.
The only time a profession check normally has a set DC is when your character is attempting to answer questions related to the profession (basically acting as a sort of knowledge check)
You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher.
Then looking at the definition of Difficulty Class
Whenever a creature attempts to perform an action whose success is not guaranteed, he must make some sort of check (usually a skill check). The result of that check must meet or exceed the Difficulty Class of the action that the creature is attempting to perform in order for the action to be successful. Climbing a slippery wall, dropping prone to avoid dragon breath, and gaining a suspicious guard’s trust all have their own DCs that are determined by the GM. The higher the DC, the more difficult the challenge.
So, the order of operation of all DCs regardless of the skill involved.
1. Player declares action
2. DM sets DC based on action
3. Player makes a check (either by rolling, or taking 10 or taking 20) and then applying any modifiers relevant to the action/situation.
4. If the total check equals or exceeds the set DC then the action is a success otherwise it is a failure.
the profession skill, nor the perform skill gives any indication that the above sequence is disrupted in any way.
What the profession skill does state is that when attempting to use the skill to earn money. The result is not compared against a DC of any sort. Instead the check has math applied to it to determine how much you get, there is no way to "fail" in this scenario.
You are allowing players to use the profession skill to earn xp. This is not a normal application of the skill but if Difficulty Classes are involved you would follow the above procedure meaning its possible for characters to fail the check. If a failed check still yields xp then I can understand why the player would be confused. Perhaps they are under the impression that this profession check works the same way that Monster Lore checks work.
You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.
Check: In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
In this case there is a minimum DC to beat, failing to make that much of a check means that your character is unable to recognize the creature. However, a very high check not only allows the character to identify the creature but they gain extra knowledge as well. While a person might state.
"I beat a dc 35 with my check."
and while getting a 35 on your check yields more information than getting a 30. It doesn't change that the DC for the monster was a 20. The DC doesn't suddenly change to 35 just because the player got a very high roll. Even though the player actually gets additional benefits for making such a high check.
Because some DMs are not so precise with their language though, they might incorrectly state.
"Since you got a DC 35, you learn that..."
Such loose usage of language could give a player the impression that once they roll, their result gets compared to a list of DCs and that they get whatever the highest DC is on that list they beat. Having this mindset is only re-enforced seeing a DC list similar to the one found for the perform skill.
TLDR: There is no such thing as a scaling DC, there is however such a thing as scaling results and some players might think this is the same thing.
