Madfrawgs |
Hi all,
Previously I played DnD a few times here and there, but am realizing Pathfinder is a bit of a different animal, and I'm struggling with character creation due to my limited understanding of the mechanics of the game and ALL THE CHOICES/COMBOS. I'm confident I can make up a backstory for just about any build... I just need help with physical character creation. :(
So, I humbly beg you, oh all knowing and kind internet goers... can you help me make a "buffing" character who is functional, starting from level 1 though, I donno, at least 8?
My GM is having us use https://www.d20pfsrd.com/ as a reference, and is not at all opposed to the 3rd party content. Though it is set in the classic medieval times, so no modern weaponry.
With a strategy of disabling/killing the enemy dealing the damage rather than trying to out heal its damage, my goals for the character are:
•buffing the melee/tank players
•disabling the enemy
•being the face of the party because "soft skills such as perception, diplomacy, linguistics, profession, crafting, knowledge, etc" will be important" for the game
•at least one healing/stabilizing spell/option
I don't know if that's asking too much for one character in this game?
Any thoughts, combos, ideas are welcome. I've been staring at options for too long and am just overwhelmed at this point haha. So if you have a build you love or think would be a fun idea, I'm all ears!!
Thank you in advance.
Rennaivx |
Make a bard! (It's my answer to most questions!) Their Inspire Courage performance is a solid buff to any weapon users, they have lots of spells that can shut down enemies, being a Charisma-based character makes social skills a cinch, and they have access to the cure line of spells. Even a Core rulebook character could handle all these things, but extra options such as archetypes can help to expand them.
For what you're specifically looking at, I would consider using the archivist archetype, as it will buff some of your options for debuffing, skills, and buffs (including adding an AC boost to your performance that Inspire Courage doesn't have). The archivist bard I made as a GMPC for my Rise of the Runelords campaign was a group favorite for all the utility she brought.
CopperWyrm |
That is not at all too much to ask from a single character.
Also, if you're new to Pathfinder and trying to navigate all the options, this chart is very useful.
So, let's look at this chart together. Usually, buffing/debuffing/control characters are full casters, because everything they do needs spells to work.
In addition, you want the character to have skills. Full casters generally don't have tons of skills, but we can help with this by having your casting stat be Intelligence.
We probably also want to be prepared casters, rather than spontaneous. This allows us to have a large bag of tricks that we can draw from, rather than being limited by only having a couple of spells known.
This leaves us with Wizard, Witch or Arcanist.
Witch has the benefit of being capable of healing.
Arcanist has the benefit of being most like 5e DnD in terms of how it's spellcasting works.
Wizard has the benefit of being a Wizard. I would suggest the Enhancement subschool of Transmutation magic. Seriously. They are good at this. Also, you can take a feat that allows you to use healing magic items, even if Wizards typically can't use them. Magic items are much more important in Pathfinder than in 5e DnD.
EDIT: The fest is called Alchemical Affinity.
VoodistMonk |
My favorite healer is the Soulthief Vitalist... you literally heal your party by dealing damage to your enemies. The more damage you deal, the more your party heals.
A Cleric isn't a bad choice here, either.
A Cleric is a full Divine caster.
Has a decent set of class skills.
Has a use for Charisma, to help with the soft skills.
Can buff and heal.
Has two good saves.
And is 3/4 BAB.
But I definitely agree that you should build a Bard.
Madfrawgs |
OK! I think I like the idea of a bard who is mostly supportive of her teammates, but has a few debuffing tricks up her sleeve that are simple but effective... And the charisma casting means I essentially get my "face of the party" goals for "free."
I've never built a bard before though... or a pathfinder character.
Are there some archetypes that I should avoid because they probably do more harm than good? Which ones are the best, in your opinions? Which races are good? Which to avoid?
VoodistMonk |
I've only played a Vanilla Bard and an Arcane Duelist Bard.
The Arcane Duelist is much more combat focused, but can still buff with the best of them. I'm having a lot of fun with a Longspear and the Banner of Ancient Kings.
As far as races go...
Humans get the bonus feat, which is quite helpful to a Bard, although not completely necessary. You can pick up Low-Light Vision via Heart of the Fey, which is an alternative racial feature that replaces Skilled.
Half-Orcs have alternative racial features like Sacred Tattoos and Shaman's Apprentice... which gives a +1 Luck bonus on saving throws and the Endurance feat, respectively. They also have Darkvision. That +1 Luck bonus can be boosted to a constant +2 to all saves with the Fate's Favored trait, too!
Rennaivx |
As I said before, the archivist bard is a pretty good archetype for the performance it uses in place of Inspire Courage. It does require some investment in Knowledge skills, but with Bardic Knowledge and a reasonable Intelligence that's not hard to pull off. The Arcane Healer, Solacer, or Songhealer could all buff your healing ability, since you said you were interested in that. Besides that, if you see another archetype you like the idea of, just check to make sure it doesn't interfere with spellcasting or Inspire Courage and you're probably ok.
Fortunately, races with Charisma bonuses abound, so there's lots of options that'll buff that aspect (and it sounds like you'll want to focus on Charisma). Aasimar in particular have lots of subtypes with Charisma bonuses, as well as buffs to Diplomacy. (Peri-blooded aasimar, with +2 Int and +2 Cha, has probably the ideal stat buffs, if you aren't intending to mix it up in melee much.) As Voodist said, human is also pretty much always a good choice, with the flexible bonus and extra feat. (Speaking of feats, Extra Performance and Expanded Arcana are solid possibilities.)
Scott Wilhelm |
Bard is the obvious choice. It was created to do exactly what you want.
If you dip a level in Ranger with the Freebooter Archetype, you can give (yourself and) all your allies a +1 Attack and Damage on any 1 opponent as a Move Action for an indefinite duration.
Alchemist is a possibility. There is a Discovery you take called Infusion that lets all your allies take all your Extracts. One Extract I particularly like is Alchemal Allocation which lets you use any potion without actually consuming it. And since most spells of most classes up to level 3 can be made into Potions, that means Alchemists effectively have humongous spell books.
Holy Tactician Paladins can give their allies Teamwork Feats through the Tactician Class Ability, and they are especially good at that.
Madfrawgs |
After much thought and discussion with my group, I think I have settled on a Skald, but need a race now. I'll take my first level in the archetype Spell Warrior and pick up Weapon Song, then play the rest of the game as a vanilla skald, for Spell Kenning at 5.
Which would be some of the better non-core race choices for a melee based Skald?
My GM has graciously allowed Bard favored class bonuses to transfer over, since skald only has the core races. I'd like something a little more flavorful than the usual, but could be convinced otherwise... I'm thinking Suli might be an ok option since it's a +2STR +2CHA -2INT, which shouldn't affect any spells I would want to cast from Spell Kenning later. Plus then I would get energy resistances, always nice! I wouldn't get a favored class bonus, but I think that's a fair trade off, considering what all I get for it.
born_of_fire |
Someone should tell OP before he does too much planning that picking an archetype for a class progresses the archetype for that class at all levels. There is no cherry-picking levels to get the class abilities you want from the base class and an archetyped version of that same class. If you play a spell warrior skald, you do not get spell kenning.
Madfrawgs |
Someone should tell OP before he does too much planning that picking an archetype for a class progresses the archetype for that class at all levels. There is no cherry-picking levels to get the class abilities you want from the base class and an archetyped version of that same class. If you play a spell warrior skald, you do not get spell kenning.
Yea, I did realize that. I found a discussion about it on Paizo, and since I am new, assumed it was a legitimate move to make... do the rules say anywhere you can't dip into an archetype? I suppose it would put even more wrenches in places they don't fit.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sfn2?Skald-Spell-Warrior-and-Improved-Counter spell
Scott Wilhelm |
born_of_fire wrote:Someone should tell OP before he does too much planning that picking an archetype for a class progresses the archetype for that class at all levels. There is no cherry-picking levels to get the class abilities you want from the base class and an archetyped version of that same class. If you play a spell warrior skald, you do not get spell kenning.Yea, I did realize that. I found a discussion about it on Paizo, and since I am new, assumed it was a legitimate move to make... do the rules say anywhere you can't dip into an archetype? I suppose it would put even more wrenches in places they don't fit.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sfn2?Skald-Spell-Warrior-and-Improved-Counter spell
You can dip into a class with an archetype, but you can't treat multiple archetypes of the same class as if they were different classes.
You can dip a level in Monk, Master of Many Styles and get a Bonus Style Feat, but then you can't dip into a level of vanilla monk to get Improved Grapple as a Bonus Feat.
There are some archetypes that you can combine. For instance, you can be a Drunken Master of Many Styles. And here is a bit of an exception. Drunken Master doesn't gain any abilities until level 3, so if you decide to add Drunken Master on your 3rd level in Monk, that's usually fine.
Rennaivx |
As Scott says, any levels you take in a particular class will have the same archetype(s). You don't get to pick and choose which levels do and don't have it. Each ability of an archetype isn't always balanced with the specific ability it trades for; the balance comes from all the abilities that are traded out.
Scott Wilhelm |
my personal favorite Bard is a Flame Dancer...
for Race I like Azata-Blooded Aasimar...
Be a Flame Dancer.
Get yourself and Eversmoking Bottle. Now everybody on the Battlefield is Blind except for you and your allies.
Your next levels will be in Snakebite Striker and Ninja or Unchained Rogue I think. Maybe Vivisectionist. And get yourself Accomplished Sneak Attacker, of course, since, when you can't see, you automatically get your Sneak Attack Damage.
Cevah |
The Cleric (Evangelist) also gets bardic inspiration, but is a 9/9 caster rather than a 6/9 caster. They get a lot more healing than a bard. Having high CHA helps with channeling, so that is a good synergy. Their spells can help out with combat: Bless, Prayer, Blessing of Fervor, and Hunter's Blessing. They all stack, including the inspiration.
For debuffing, Prayer is the main one, as it applies to multiple enemies. But they do have a lot of single target spells like Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Shadowmind, Baphomet's Blessing, Calamitous Flailing, and Shroud Of Darkness.
/cevah
Ryan Freire |
Bard and Skald are the two best buffers.
Bard is fairly generic, and skald is good if you have a lot of melee, or animal companions.
The key to a buffing pc is this. You have before going into the dungeon, and roughly 2 rounds for most encounters for your buffs to matter.
If you throw a buff on turn 3, in a combat that ends on turn 4 or 5 youve likely wasted that buff. Thats a big reason bards and skalds (and to a lesser degree magi) tend to top charts for buffing, after a bit they can start a song and throw a buff turn 1, then be in combat turn 2 or 3 depending on if they need another buff.
The other aspect of a buffing pc people forget about is that they work best with a lot of divination and scouting. If you know theres gonna be fire damage, you can occasionally trivialize entire encounters by leading with resist energy before you even enter the dungeon.
Thats the other reason bards and skalds tend to be great buffers. They're cha based, so naturally decent at using diplomacy to gather information, and their spell lists have a lot of divination on them for a 2/3 caster
Cevah |
The other aspect of a buffing pc people forget about is that they work best with a lot of divination and scouting. If you know theres gonna be fire damage, you can occasionally trivialize entire encounters by leading with resist energy before you even enter the dungeon.
My Cleric (Evangelist) uses Guiding Vellums to do this.
/cevah