Unarmored Options

[RJGrady]

What official, unofficial, and third party options exist for letting some characters run around in clothes, some of the time?

[Garretmander]

Little to none. Armor includes enviromental protections as well as AC.

A spellcaster with life bubble can hang back and accept getting hit if they have the right strategy.

No one on the front lines can. Like at all.

[Ixal]

Starfinder, at least the published adventures, assume that you are walking around in (heavy) armor 24/7 no matter where you are.

And because of this assumption SF does not spend any thought on civilian clothing, except that some light armor look like it.

[RJGrady]

I'm trying to picture a spy scenario, but everyone is walking around in concealed armor. That's... weird.

[Ixal]

RJGrady wrote:

I'm trying to picture a spy scenario, but everyone is walking around in concealed armor. That's... weird.

Most armor is not even concealed.

In Starfinder PCs are walking around the city in heavy, spiky armor shouldering a rocket launcher.

[Pantshandshake]

I see Ixal hit the hyperbole juice extra hard this morning.

In Starfinder, SOME PCs are walking around in heavy armor, all the time. It might be spiky, if they want. It might not be. I'd hazard a guess that MOST PCs are walking around in light armor, which may or may not be more or less acceptable, depending on who you ask.

If you're looking to be un-armored for the sake of sneaking into a place, I'd say you're as stealthy with some light armors as you would be with clothes.

If you're looking to blend in with people who aren't wearing armor, well, there are armors that specifically don't look like armor, and there's disguise magic.

There's also the fact that, unless you're sneaking into like, Space Arbys or the Space DMV, most of the npcs are likely also wearing light armor. Because in Starfinder, its not out of place to be wearing armor all the time, since armor is basically clothes.

[BigNorseWolf]

Second skin goes on under clothes. You can have second skin skivies under your clothes with no one spotting it.

[HammerJack]

Basically, what there is to support walking around in clothes is the existence of clothes.

Just don't do it while adventuring.

May character in Signal of Screams spent a bunch if time wearing no armor in the 1st book, because he was on vacation. When things got ugly, armor went on when there was a chance.

[Dracomicron]

Like, there's literally a line of armor called "Stationwear," suggesting that you just wear it like clothes on space stations because, well, you never know when there's going to be catastrophic decompression in your tin can floating in a vacuum.

There's also a suit called Clearweave that is basically invisible so you can wear clothes under it. People will just see the clothes.

Starfinder armor is basically integrated with clothing to a high degree because it's a spacefaring society and armor is the primary means of protecting oneself from all of the varied horrible deaths that a spacefaring society can rustle up.

[BigNorseWolf]

OH. Duh. The Environmental field collars They're made for critters but nothing says you can't wear one.

[HammerJack]

If you're the type to willingly graft undead horror into your own body, a Black Heart necrograft also means you have environmental protection effects on hand in case of emergency.

[johnlocke90]

The game relies on you wearing armor because its the only way to significantly scale your AC.

If you wanted to go unarmored, you would need to homebrew a feat or class feature that gave you something like +1 KAC/EAC every level.

[Ixal]

johnlocke90 wrote:

The game relies on you wearing armor because its the only way to significantly scale your AC.

If you wanted to go unarmored, you would need to homebrew a feat or class feature that gave you something like +1 KAC/EAC every level.

Or you accept that you will always get hit and use your money to get damage reduction items. But that only gets you so far.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

It's always been the GM's job to either clearly communicate what kind of adventure the players should expect and offer appropriate resources for the challenges ahead if they blindside players with new situations. Unless there is a strong narrative purpose for having the players be grossly unprepared for a situation doing otherwise is not good GMing.

That said, if I knew I was joining a infiltration campaign and low-visibility party, I would be sure to specialize in the more concealable light armors and weapons. I distinctly would not play a power armor/heavy weapons specialist with a taste for explosions. The breakdown weapon property is a thing and can be added to weapons through a manufacturer. Disguise self is on all three spell lists, meaning there are numerous feats that can be used to gain it as a spell-like ability. I'm sure there are class features and equipment that aid in hiding or disguising your gear.

I would like a fully unarmored character option too, but in this game it seems like that ability will need to require more investment than it did in Pathfinder or DnD.

[Ixal]

Pantshandshake wrote:

I see Ixal hit the hyperbole juice extra hard this morning.

In Starfinder, SOME PCs are walking around in heavy armor, all the time. It might be spiky, if they want. It might not be. I'd hazard a guess that MOST PCs are walking around in light armor, which may or may not be more or less acceptable, depending on who you ask.

If you're looking to be un-armored for the sake of sneaking into a place, I'd say you're as stealthy with some light armors as you would be with clothes.

If you're looking to blend in with people who aren't wearing armor, well, there are armors that specifically don't look like armor, and there's disguise magic.

There's also the fact that, unless you're sneaking into like, Space Arbys or the Space DMV, most of the npcs are likely also wearing light armor. Because in Starfinder, its not out of place to be wearing armor all the time, since armor is basically clothes.

Those who are wearing heavy armor while adventuring are expected to wear them in their downtime, too. At least when you follow the encounters in Signal of Screems adventure and throw heavily armed and armored enemies at the PCs while in the middle of the city.

And lets not forget that most light armor still looks like armor and can't be mistaken for civilian clothing.

We will see if 3fold consipracy paints a different picture, but I doubt it. In SF its apparently considered normal to walk around in armor (light, heavy or even power) and carry long arms or even heavy weapons with you everywhere.

[Garretmander]

I'm pretty sure most civilians that have been published are wearing light armor as civilian clothing. It's just an assumption of the setting.

[Pantshandshake]

Ixal wrote:

Those who are wearing heavy armor while adventuring are expected to wear them in their downtime, too. At least when you follow the encounters in Signal of Screems adventure and throw heavily armed and armored enemies at the PCs while in the middle of the city.

And lets not forget that most light armor still looks like armor and can't be mistaken for civilian clothing.

We will see if 3fold consipracy paints a different picture, but I doubt it. In SF its apparently considered normal to walk around in armor (light, heavy or even power) and carry long arms or even heavy weapons with you everywhere.

Well, yes, but there are more classes that, extra feats not withstanding, don't have heavy armor proficiency. Averages being averages and all, I'd expect to see 2 or 3 beings wearing light armor for every 1 wearing heavy armor, and maybe a scattering of power armor (I expect that probably a third of power armor users walk around in light armor, and only use the PA when on-mission, given some PA has a very restrictive power usage.)

On a personal level, my character wears PA, and most of his downtime is spent in his spaceship, so yes, he's in his PA just about all the time.

I'm aware most armors look like armors. Which is why I said "If you're looking to blend in with people who aren't wearing armor, well, there are armors that specifically don't look like armor, and there's disguise magic." it's also why I followed that up with a callout to the fact that the setting expects a LOT of armor wearing, so the people you're trying to blend in with are mostly also going to be wearing armor.

[Dabber Raccoon]

d20 Modern has a stat called "Defense Bonus", which advances differently for different classes. This Defense Bonus added to Dex bonus and Armor bonus when figuring defense. Perhaps this could work for Starfinder instead of constantly buying armor?

[Ixal]

Pantshandshake wrote:

Ixal wrote:

Those who are wearing heavy armor while adventuring are expected to wear them in their downtime, too. At least when you follow the encounters in Signal of Screems adventure and throw heavily armed and armored enemies at the PCs while in the middle of the city.

And lets not forget that most light armor still looks like armor and can't be mistaken for civilian clothing.

We will see if 3fold consipracy paints a different picture, but I doubt it. In SF its apparently considered normal to walk around in armor (light, heavy or even power) and carry long arms or even heavy weapons with you everywhere.

Well, yes, but there are more classes that, extra feats not withstanding, don't have heavy armor proficiency. Averages being averages and all, I'd expect to see 2 or 3 beings wearing light armor for every 1 wearing heavy armor, and maybe a scattering of power armor (I expect that probably a third of power armor users walk around in light armor, and only use the PA when on-mission, given some PA has a very restrictive power usage.)

On a personal level, my character wears PA, and most of his downtime is spent in his spaceship, so yes, he's in his PA just about all the time.

I'm aware most armors look like armors. Which is why I said "If you're looking to blend in with people who aren't wearing armor, well, there are armors that specifically don't look like armor, and there's disguise magic." it's also why I followed that up with a callout to the fact that the setting expects a LOT of armor wearing, so the people you're trying to blend in with are mostly also going to be wearing armor.

And that is the problem. Why would people, civilians who can't even fight and don't expect that they have to, wear armor all the time? Armor which not only costs a fortune but is also restrictive (maximum Dex and speed penalty).

And please don't come with "There is always the chance that a portal to the Abyss opens and demons attack". In the real world there is always a chance to get blown up or shot by a terrorist and yet people do not walk around in body armor.

No, civilians would not wear armor and so should the PCs unless they want to stick out and have the authorities stop and question them what they intend to do walking around heavily armed and armored.
But that is not the case. One of the many, many weaknesses of the world building in Starfinder.

[Pantshandshake]

Ixal wrote:

And that is the problem. Why would people, civilians who can't even fight and don't expect that they have to, wear armor all the time? Armor which not only costs a fortune but is also restrictive (maximum Dex and speed penalty).
And please don't come with "There is always the chance that a portal to the Abyss opens and demons attack". In the real world there is always a chance to get blown up or shot by a terrorist and yet people do not walk around in body armor.
No, civilians would not wear armor and so should the PCs unless they want to stick out and have the authorities stop and question them what they intend to do walking around heavily armed and armored.
But that is not the case. One of the many, many weaknesses of the world building in Starfinder.

There's a lot of variables here. I'll spoiler for length.

First and second:

Spoiler:

It would really depend on where we are. If we're in a location that is either on a planet with a hostile atmosphere or in something surrounded by space, I expect most everyone to wear armor most of the time. That's just good sense. Second, a Stationwear Flight Suit costs 95 credits. Hardly a fortune. It also has 0 speed penalties and 0 armor check penalty, as well as a very high max dex bonus, which tells me its probably as restrictive as a pair of fitted jeans.

Third:

Spoiler:

I mean, there is always the chance of demon attack, but I rank the likelihood as pretty low for that specific threat. There are probably no threats more on people's minds than the Swarm, but that threat seems likely and ominous enough to justify plenty of people wearing armor all the time, probably as a symptom of PTSD more than anything else. I mean, look at Earth's cold war era. We would teach children to duck and cover from the ever present threat of nuclear war breaking out. Do you think if Earth had a proven threat to all the life on it like the Swarm, that there wouldn't be a series of basic safety precautions taught like a catechism? And, yes, there's always a threat of terrorism or what have you on earth. Generally, those can be measured as a non-zero chance. No terrorists are coming into my office. But if moved to, say, Israel? You better believe people living there have a much, MUCH higher risk of being involved in a sudden explosion. If we had a device you could buy with a week's salary that would drastically improve your chances of not dying from a Hamas rocket, do you think people would scoff at it because it isn't a nice shirt with a collar and some buttons?

Lastly:

Spoiler:

There's the absurd notion that PCs shouldn't or wouldn't be armed and armored the majority of the time. The PCs involved in the game anyone is playing are legit the saviors of the world. The absence of a group of more capable people to go do the things the PCs are doing in their day to day adventures tells me that whatever threats the PCs face are beyond the scope or capabilities of the vast majority of security/police/armed forces to deal with. On top of that, most of the time the PCs are doing things at the specific behest of Space Cops in some form, if not an actual government. While that shouldn't be carte blanche for whatever the PCs want to do, if the governor hires a group of mercenaries to deal with something that his mundane security force can't, why would said regular security force hassle them? Did they not get the memo? Yes, a party of armed and armored people where they shouldn't be, or have no real reason to be, should get some scrutiny from the law. But if I'm hired to be a Space Cop stand-in, or am actually a branch of Space Cop, the expectation that Carl Winslow is going to ask me for my papers is absolutely ridiculous.

[Pantshandshake]

Now, all of that isn't to say that Ixal's ideas about PCs always being armed and armored don't have merit for both some of the settings in general Starfinder, or some specific games that look to change the nature of Starfinder itself. You probably don't wear your Flight Suit powered armor to go see a visiting dignitary. You probably don't need your fully automatic laser cannon at the grocery store.

But like it or not, Starfinder's setting runs between "There's an ever-present threat to every living thing in our civilization out there" and "Out here on the frontier, there's that same ever-present threat and also a bunch of regular threats because we live in a hellhole."

I mean, there's a hive-mind out there that wants to get rid of life that isn't part of it. You don't just exist with that, you kill it or it kills everything else.

[RJGrady]

Like if the PCs go to the opera, is the ball gown one is wearing actually armor? I just, well.

[Pantshandshake]

RJGrady wrote:

Like if the PCs go to the opera, is the ball gown one is wearing actually armor? I just, well.

It could be! Or maybe it isn't and I just wanted to be pretty for one magical night!

But also, think of it like this: Does your character need or want to go to the opera? If the Envoy wants to be a socialite, its 100% ok to go alone. My character is a soldier, and also a guitarist in a speed metal band. Dick Justice doesn't do the opera.

[BigNorseWolf]

Ixal wrote:

And that is the problem. Why would people, civilians who can't even fight and don't expect that they have to, wear armor all the time? Armor which not only costs a fortune but is also restrictive (maximum Dex and speed penalty).

...why do you think they're wearing armor all the time? There are other kinds of clothing in the game

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Pantshandshake wrote:

My character is a soldier, and also a guitarist in a speed metal band. Dick Justice doesn't do the opera.

LOL! I love it. Well done.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ixal wrote:

And that is the problem. Why would people, civilians who can't even fight and don't expect that they have to, wear armor all the time? Armor which not only costs a fortune but is also restrictive (maximum Dex and speed penalty).

...why do you think they're wearing armor all the time? There are other kinds of clothing in the game

Of the 24 player characters in my campaign not one uses heavy armor or power armor.

A couple have tried it, but when spaceport authorities prevented them from getting off the ship with it on, or when wearing it and venturing into a settlement and then being hassled by local law enforcement, the decided it was better to get light armor and be less obvious about their intentions.

Nobody wears heavy armor / power armor just for S's & G's. You mean business, not necessarily the good kind.

At least that's how it works at my table.

[Ixal]

Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ixal wrote:

And that is the problem. Why would people, civilians who can't even fight and don't expect that they have to, wear armor all the time? Armor which not only costs a fortune but is also restrictive (maximum Dex and speed penalty).

...why do you think they're wearing armor all the time? There are other kinds of clothing in the game

Of the 24 player characters in my campaign not one uses heavy armor or power armor.

A couple have tried it, but when spaceport authorities prevented them from getting off the ship with it on, or when wearing it and venturing into a settlement and then being hassled by local law enforcement, the decided it was better to get light armor and be less obvious about their intentions.

Nobody wears heavy armor / power armor just for S's & G's. You mean business, not necessarily the good kind.

At least that's how it works at my table.

Good for you. I wished Paizo would see it the same way. But from several adventures where the players are in cities, etc. it is clear that the expectation is that no matter where they are the PCs are fully armed or armored based on the enemies which are thrown at them and the lack of response from authorities.

Not only would make that the world of Starfinder more believable, it would also give light armor and sidearms some advantages instead of them clearly being the weaker option compared to long arms, etc.

But Paizo sadly decided not to spend much effort on world building, at least when it comes to stories other than dungeon crawling.

[BigNorseWolf]

The campaigns default assumption is no one minds the pc in powered armor----->Something happens-----> therefore everyone is walking around in armor all the time----> therefore starfinder worldbuilding isn't thought out....

[BigNorseWolf]

Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ixal wrote:

And that is the problem. Why would people, civilians who can't even fight and don't expect that they have to, wear armor all the time? Armor which not only costs a fortune but is also restrictive (maximum Dex and speed penalty).

...why do you think they're wearing armor all the time? There are other kinds of clothing in the game

Of the 24 player characters in my campaign not one uses heavy armor or power armor.

A couple have tried it, but when spaceport authorities prevented them from getting off the ship with it on, or when wearing it and venturing into a settlement and then being hassled by local law enforcement, the decided it was better to get light armor and be less obvious about their intentions.

Nobody wears heavy armor / power armor just for S's & G's. You mean business, not necessarily the good kind.

At least that's how it works at my table.

The universe is a big place. I'd imagine there's places where almost any reception is the local norm.

I can picture the vesk seeing powered armor as the guy driving the ferrari...he's a jerk for taking up two parking spots but damned if you don't wish you were him...

[Ixal]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The campaigns default assumption is no one minds the pc in powered armor----->Something happens-----> therefore everyone is walking around in armor all the time----> therefore starfinder worldbuilding isn't thought out....

Adventures expect the PCs to be fully armed all the time -> throws "level appropriate" enemies at the PCs in the middle of peaceful cities assuming the PCs are fully armed -> Adventures make the players dungeon crawl through civilian areas like office building, making them shoot everything up with high powered and possible explosive weapons -> PCs never get into trouble with authorities, some adventures (the one with the office building dungeon crawl) even telling the DM that the police shows no interest in what the PCs do -> therefore starfinder worldbuilding isn't thought out well.

About the original topic: No, there is no support for it. At least if you leave the rest of the game untouched. Attack bonuses go up as you level, but the main way to increase your AC is wearing armor. No armor and you will get at the point that every attack, even on a full attack on you is an automatic hit.

You might be able to find a few sweet spots where the highest damage reduction you can get counteracts getting always hit, but as damage increases with better weapons the DR will not be able to keep up.

[RJGrady]

Pantshandshake wrote:

RJGrady wrote:

Like if the PCs go to the opera, is the ball gown one is wearing actually armor? I just, well.

It could be! Or maybe it isn't and I just wanted to be pretty for one magical night!

But also, think of it like this: Does your character need or want to go to the opera? If the Envoy wants to be a socialite, its 100% ok to go alone. My character is a soldier, and also a guitarist in a speed metal band. Dick Justice doesn't do the opera.

So the lack of defensive options while unarmored means you should split the party? LOL. I'm not sure this is doing in a helpful direction.

I don't object, particularly, to PCs being frequently in armor. I'm more hung up on situations where they really shouldn't be, and combat happens, and the system doesn't seem to deal with the situation that well. Like, Pathfinder 1e assumes armor, but you can boost your AC in other ways.

[Garretmander]

RJGrady wrote:

Pantshandshake wrote:

RJGrady wrote:

Like if the PCs go to the opera, is the ball gown one is wearing actually armor? I just, well.

It could be! Or maybe it isn't and I just wanted to be pretty for one magical night!

But also, think of it like this: Does your character need or want to go to the opera? If the Envoy wants to be a socialite, its 100% ok to go alone. My character is a soldier, and also a guitarist in a speed metal band. Dick Justice doesn't do the opera.

So the lack of defensive options while unarmored means you should split the party? LOL. I'm not sure this is doing in a helpful direction.

I don't object, particularly, to PCs being frequently in armor. I'm more hung up on situations where they really shouldn't be, and combat happens, and the system doesn't seem to deal with the situation that well. Like, Pathfinder 1e assumes armor, but you can boost your AC in other ways.

The system deals with it perfectly fine. Your PCs simply have no AC in that situation, so you need to adjust your encounters. Pathfinder 1e was more dependent on a plethora of magic items that were easy to conceal than armor. It didn't deal well with PCs missing those either.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Garretmander wrote:

The system deals with it perfectly fine. Your PCs simply have no AC in that situation, so you need to adjust your encounters. Pathfinder 1e was more dependent on a plethora of magic items that were easy to conceal than armor. It didn't deal well with PCs missing those either.

To add to this. If the CR of the encounter is appropriate for the players and the players aren't allowed armor than neither are the bad guys. If the players don't have guns for the encounters then neither do the bad guys.

In a situation that a GM needs to restrict items from the players (weapons and heavy armor in a city) then the bad guys are subject to the same. Not that hard.

If the bad guys have armor or weapons but the players do not, then lower the CR of the bad guys.

A GM can make balanced, challenging and fun encounters with equipment restrictions. It truly is not that hard.

[johnlocke90]

Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ixal wrote:

And that is the problem. Why would people, civilians who can't even fight and don't expect that they have to, wear armor all the time? Armor which not only costs a fortune but is also restrictive (maximum Dex and speed penalty).

...why do you think they're wearing armor all the time? There are other kinds of clothing in the game

Of the 24 player characters in my campaign not one uses heavy armor or power armor.

A couple have tried it, but when spaceport authorities prevented them from getting off the ship with it on, or when wearing it and venturing into a settlement and then being hassled by local law enforcement, the decided it was better to get light armor and be less obvious about their intentions.

Nobody wears heavy armor / power armor just for S's & G's. You mean business, not necessarily the good kind.

At least that's how it works at my table.

I think you demonstrated the issue. If you enforce realism, hardly anyone wears heavy armor. The game balance assumes that they are both freely available and if you deviate from that, heavy armor builds suck.

I would guess your players also favor dex based builds, because when heavy armor isn't feasible then dexterity because even stronger, which also means ranged weapons are stronger and melee builds are weaker.

The game has built in assumptions in how its balanced and things start to break when you violate those assumptions.

[BigNorseWolf]

Unless you invest whole hog in armor , NPCs have enough hit to hit you every time anyway and you rely on miss chance and damage reduction for mitigation.

[Ixal]

johnlocke90 wrote:

The game has built in assumptions in how its balanced and things start to break when you violate those assumptions.

Yeah, thats the thing. With believable societies operatives rule (maybe also Vanguard, never tried them. And of course spellcaster)

If it weren't for this imbalance there would not be a problem. But as you said, the in build assumptions and balancing in SF work against believable worlds.
And if soldiers would at least have some better skills, or at least the operative and envoy have less skills so that they would not automatically dominate the skill game, I could run episodic combat or civilian adventures.
But the way the game is balanced several classes are less then suitable for believable civilian adventures.

[Garretmander]

Ixal wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

The game has built in assumptions in how its balanced and things start to break when you violate those assumptions.

Yeah, thats the thing. With believable societies operatives rule (maybe also Vanguard, never tried them. And of course spellcaster)

If it weren't for this imbalance there would not be a problem. But as you said, the in build assumptions and balancing in SF work against believable worlds.
And if soldiers would at least have some better skills, or at least the operative and envoy have less skills so that they would not automatically dominate the skill game, I could run episodic combat or civilian adventures.
But the way the game is balanced several classes are less then suitable for believable civilian adventures.

'Believable'. I get not allowing the average citizen to wander around with an artillery laser and a plasma doshko.

I'm much less convinced that disallowing an armored environmental suit is common.

In stricter starfinder civilizations, I'd imagine rough looking heavy armor gets you put on the strip search list when you arrive. I doubt it gets you directly arrested.

I'm unsure of current laws, but I'd think a ballistic vest gets you questions & suspicion these days, not a jail sentence.

[Garretmander]

Oh, nearly forgot about this one.

The junk armor spell turns a pile of tech junk into temporary armor. You need a decent caster level to make it decent armor, so sadly non-technomancers need not apply.

[johnlocke90]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Unless you invest whole hog in armor , NPCs have enough hit to hit you every time anyway and you rely on miss chance and damage reduction for mitigation.

So picking a few random CR 5 monsters, theBarathu has +12 to hit. The medium elemental is +15 and the Ikeshti Rivener is +11. Someone with level 4 Defrex Hide, Basic and +4 dex is at 19 armor. Meaning they reduce enemy damage by about 10-25% just from their armor on a regular attack. On a full attack, they are reducing damage by 30-45%.

So for an equivalent CR monster, they certainly aren't hitting you every time.

[Claxon]

RJGrady wrote:

Like if the PCs go to the opera, is the ball gown one is wearing actually armor? I just, well.

If it was my gladiator character absolutely.

Hell, Gladiator's (theme) even have this:

Part of the Outfit (12th Level) wrote:

Your name is synonymous with your gladiatorial persona and outfit. As long as your gear is in good condition, you don’t take any circumstantial penalties for wearing light armor or heavy armor in social situations (such as wearing golemforged plate to a formal event). You can use Intimidate or Profession (gladiator; Charisma) to “hide” up to two smaller weapons (such as a small arm or one-handed melee weapon with light bulk) or one larger melee weapon on your body, though you do not conceal the weapon so much as convince others to accept your carrying it without any objections. You can draw these weapons as normal; you do not need to spend a standard action as you would to draw a hidden weapon. Otherwise, this functions as the hide object task of Sleight of Hand. At the GM’s discretion, areas with especially high security may not allow you to carry weapons at all, no matter your reputation.

You're so famous that people just accept that you should have your weapons and armor with little to no qualms.

Otherwise, there is armor that magically make itself look like clothing.

And space is deadly enough that wearing armor isn't unreasonable, especially considering the cheapest light armors (95 credits) aren't much more expensive than the cheapest space suits (25 credits).

Considering the extra protections that armor has vs space suit, it actually seems very reasonable to me that anyone on a space ship or space station would have a stationwear flightsuit armor.

[RJGrady]

"The system deals with it perfectly fine. Your PCs simply have no AC in that situation, so you need to adjust your encounters."

These sentences don't go together. I'm not trying to organize a gladiatorial swimwear event. I'm trying to figure out how the system doesn't abjectly fail when mid-level characters get into fights in which they and possibly their opponents can't reasonably be expected to wear armor. If the PCs simply have no AC, the system is not dealing with it perfectly fine. You can't just calculate how much damage a 6th level Soldier is going to take from fighting eight nine-year-old children, and say, okay this is balanced now, this is fine.

It looks like Fight Defensively is still an option, so there's something.

[Pantshandshake]

Well, that’s one of the problems a lot of us have with these kinds of conversations.

If you, as a GM, decide that your Starfinder universe is going to be the most realistic thing you can think of, so your PCs can’t wear armor or be armed anywhere near a city/town/etc, you’re only a quarter of the way being done changing your setting.

If nobody wears armor or goes armed near cities, its because nothing dangerous happens near cities or the local law enforcement is so effective and omnipresent that non-cops don’t need to protect themselves in any way. So there’s no more ‘bad parts of town.’ Drow and all the inhabitants of Eox are now nice people that greet you with a smile and definitely not an underhanded plot. Prices on armor and guns plummet since so few people need to buy them.

People start getting old, since they aren’t dying in battle. You have to make some sort of healthcare system that works, and also you realize that you don’t ever remember seeing Starfinder rules for character old age.

There’s a literal ton of things you have to rebuild from scratch for this vision to completely work, otherwise you run the risk of your table saying “This world you built is not believable.” Then there’s forum posts, and all of a sudden YOU’RE Paizo. You became the thing you hate. All because you didn’t factor in how expensive housing would be in an interplanetary civilization with a steadily growing geriatric population.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are playing a game we like, saying “Huh, the Starfinders need a group of heavily armed adventurers to investigate/likely clear out that office building? Well of course the local cops are fine with it, the Space Cops sent us. Duh.”

[BigNorseWolf]

RJGrady wrote:

"The system deals with it perfectly fine. Your PCs simply have no AC in that situation, so you need to adjust your encounters."

These sentences don't go together.

They do.

CRs are calculated on even ground with fully armed armored and awake pathfinders ready to go.

Any of those assumptions you change can raise (or less often lower) the effective CR of an encounter. : the sniper is in the belltower, the fog monster is in the fog, the party is attacked while sleeping, you're fighting a fire elemental in a fireworks factory....it's an acknowledged part of the game that you have to eyeball encounters you change.

And unless you're shooting a verty specific kind of video there's no reason you can't have second skin skivvies.

[Garretmander]

I don't understand how 'you just get hit when attacked if you don't have armor' and 'the system can't handle it! all is lost and I must now dust off my traveler books if I want to play sci fi' are the same thoughts.

You get hit. Big whoop. Even spending every last credit on armor, you are going to get hit in this system. That's how the system is built. Good armor just means you get hit less often. The system has this whole thing with stamina that is your primary resource for not taking injuries.

You're at a party. Maybe you're hiding a second skin under your tux, maybe you're wearing a revealing dress and have decided not to. That's not the point. Something happens, and now you're fighting the guy who threw the event and his cronies. I don't know the reason, but it's happened. You take some damage, you kill the baddies, then rest up for ten minutes and fight your way out of the mansion... or whatever the scenario is.

Behind the scenes, the GM has done one or more things.

A) Reduced enemy AC to reflect that they aren't wearing armor either.

B) Reduced the CR of the combatants to accomodate the fact that this situation is more deadly than if the PCs had their gear.

C) Increased the experience reward to reflect the deadlier situation.

D) Allowed the players to smuggle their armor in a statue or something, and after the first low challenge fight, allowed them to quickly don it for the rest of the encounters.

etc...

That's the system handling you not being in armor in a situation.

A PC that never buys armor is a different story. They're gonna need life bubble and be allergic to melee range. I've heard of characters still in their second skin by level 6ish who are still alive, so an unarmored character who plays smart might be too.

[johnlocke90]

Pantshandshake wrote:

If nobody wears armor or goes armed near cities, its because nothing dangerous happens near cities or the local law enforcement is so effective and omnipresent that non-cops don’t need to protect themselves in any way. So there’s no more ‘bad parts of town.’ Drow and all the inhabitants of Eox are now nice people that greet you with a smile and definitely not an underhanded plot. Prices on armor and guns plummet since so few people need to buy them.

That doesn't follow. In dangerous real world cities, people don't walk around in body armor carrying assault rifles. Cities like Tijuana or Caracas tend to have fairly strict(if poorly enforced) weapons laws, in fact. At most, regular people wear street clothes and carry a concealed pistol.

[BigNorseWolf]

Garretmander wrote:

I don't understand how 'you just get hit when attacked if you don't have armor' and 'the system can't handle it! all is lost and I must now dust off my traveler books if I want to play sci fi' are the same thoughts.

I've leveled a melee operative to 6 twice in second skin. (The mystic got to 9ish the envoy is currently 7) You'll live, even if you do need to tag out and let someone else take a few hits every once in a while.

[Claxon]

RJGrady wrote:

"The system deals with it perfectly fine. Your PCs simply have no AC in that situation, so you need to adjust your encounters."

These sentences don't go together. I'm not trying to organize a gladiatorial swimwear event. I'm trying to figure out how the system doesn't abjectly fail when mid-level characters get into fights in which they and possibly their opponents can't reasonably be expected to wear armor. If the PCs simply have no AC, the system is not dealing with it perfectly fine. You can't just calculate how much damage a 6th level Soldier is going to take from fighting eight nine-year-old children, and say, okay this is balanced now, this is fine.

It looks like Fight Defensively is still an option, so there's something.

I think the response is, in universe, everyone is basically always expected to be wearing armor and it's not considered weird or unusual assuming you go to the lengths of disguising, or magically enchanting your armor to change appearance, or purchasing armor designed to look fancy/casual.

[Pantshandshake]

johnlocke90 wrote:

That doesn't follow. In dangerous real world cities, people don't walk around in body armor carrying assault rifles. Cities like Tijuana or Caracas tend to have fairly strict(if poorly enforced) weapons laws, in fact. At most, regular people wear street clothes and carry a concealed pistol.

I find this entirely hilarious.

Lets head down to Caracas and ask some people wearing street clothes what kind of AC, stamina, or hit points they have. Maybe we can find a couple of these people together and we can take a survey about how many of their spell slots are devoted to healing vs damage, buffing vs control. Perhaps we can ask some of these people, how often they have to use resolve to Stabilize and/or Get Back In The Fight after they've been shot by a pistol 7 or 8 times (or, you know, however many pistol shots it takes to drop them to exactly 0 stamina and hit points.)

[Hawk Kriegsman]

johnlocke90 wrote:

I would guess your players also favor dex based builds, because when heavy armor isn't feasible then dexterity because even stronger, which also means ranged weapons are stronger and melee builds are weaker.

You would be 100% correct. The players max out dexterity and focus on ranged with limited melee for sure. After decades of D&D, 3.5, Pathfinder etc. My players wanted something different.

johnlocke90 wrote:

The game has built in assumptions in how its balanced and things start to break when you violate those assumptions.

I have not encountered any breakage with the way we play our game.

That's my job as GM to make sure balance stays.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

you're fighting a fire elemental in a fireworks factory

Brilliant! Consider this nicked and inserted into my game at some point in the near future. LOL!!

BigNorseWolf wrote:

And unless you're shooting a verty specific kind of video there's no reason you can't have second skin skivvies.

What kind of video??? LOL!