A champion is forced to fight after a failed diplomacy roll. Grounds for anathema?


Rules Discussion


As the title. (And no, this is not a bait thread.)

I'm a Paladin of Shelyn (one of the more "lax" Champion Tenet deities, I know), and the current campaign I'm running treats the entities I interact with as works of art (because they are considered part of an active story, and to someone like Shelyn, tales and theatrics are considered works of art), and this issue has come up several times so far simply because of bad rolls.

In several of these situations, I've had to attempt to utilize Diplomacy in an attempt to avoid encounters as well as further our goal without resorting to violence. In more situations than I care to admit, such attempts have failed and have come to fights to the death. (Since the entities I deal with are more like works of art, AKA objects, they don't have dying rules like us normal people do and are basically destroyed, and one of the entities I destroyed is actually what creates them in the first place, meaning they can't be replaced anymore.)

While I'm not surprised a situation like this has come to pass due to the basic rules of mathematics and probability, the frequency and circumstances presented to our group began to question whether my character could continue being a Champion of that deity, or of a Champion period, since instead of being able to properly diffuse the situation and saving "lives," these very "lives" have ended prematurely due to my inability to convince others of resorting to non-violence, and are now no longer capable of returning. Sure, in some cases this isn't possible, but quite clearly the GM has stated that several encounters can be resolved without combat, and of the ones I've failed thus far, they have all been avoidable.

This extreme set of circumstances has brought myself into question what Champions of other deities who don't have such "lax" tenets do in more realistic situations where they should preserve life before it becomes lost to the throes of anger and vengeance. If you were a Champion attempting to Diplomacy someone to not kill someone, and you were forced to kill them because of your inability to successfully persuade them not to kill someone, should you fall? I imagine such concepts would not be easy for a Champion to bear, but would they either choose to no longer pursue it due to the pain and hardship it creates, or would their deity view them as no longer capable of delivering the message they wish to convey?

In short, would a character's mistakes, even if they are attempting the right thing to do, but ultimately fail, and are resorted to something else that their deity might not approve of, still count as grounds for anathema? I would personally say no, since the intent of your actions is more important than the result of your intended actions, but I know that if these circumstances repeat consistently that Deities (AKA GMs) would intervene one way or another, or give said player a push to either retrain their entire class, or even retire altogether. I haven't technically gotten to that point yet, but if I had a more strict GM or Deity that I would probably have fallen simply due to incompetence.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I would say that if the entities are part of a greater meta story worthy of being called art, any interaction with them would be considered the same. Thus your failures and the inner struggles it causes are transformative in that regard.

Sovereign Court

3 people marked this as a favorite.

The CRB has a "technical" answer for you:

CRB p. 106 wrote:

You follow a code of conduct, beginning with tenets shared by all champions of an alignment (such as good), and continuing with tenets of your cause. Deities often add additional strictures (for instance, Torag’s champions can’t show mercy to enemies of their people, making it almost impossible for them to follow the redeemer cause).

Tenets are listed in order of importance, starting with the most important. If a situation places two tenets in conflict, you aren’t in a no-win situation; instead, follow the more important tenet. For instance, as a paladin, if an evil king asked you if you’re hiding refugees so he could execute them, you could lie to him, since the tenet against lying is less important than preventing harm to innocents. Trying to subvert your code by creating a situation that forces a higher tenet to override a lower tenet (for example, promising not to respect authorities and then, to keep your word, disrespecting authorities) is a violation of the champion code.

So let's list these tenets in their descending order of importance.

Tenets of Good wrote:

• You must never perform acts anathema to your deity or willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.

• You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it. This tenet doesn’t force you to take action against possible harm to innocents at an indefinite time in the future, or to sacrifice your life to protect them.
Paladin Tenets wrote:

• You must act with honor, never taking advantage of others, lying, or cheating.

• You must respect the lawful authority of legitimate leadership wherever you go, and follow its laws.
Tenets of Shelyn wrote:

Destroy art or allow it to be destroyed, unless saving a life or pursuing greater art.

• Refuse to accept surrender.

If you failed to diplomatically defuse the situation and the artistic thing is going to hurt people, you aren't just allowed to stop it, you have a duty to.

Anathemas require you to make efforts in good faith, they don't require you to always succeed at challenging skill checks. Rolling low on a d20 is not a violation.

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as a favorite.

The order priority doesn't work, because 'performing an act anathema to your deity' is part of the first tenet, above the second tenet, which is the one about allowing harm to innocents.

That said, the anathema itself includes 'unless saving a life' so you're 100% always fine to destroy art to save lives. Which this situation is. So you're good to go.

Sovereign Court

Yeah you have a point, I overlooked that first line. But the Shelyn anathema isn't stupid so that's okay.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
In short, would a character's mistakes, even if they are attempting the right thing to do, but ultimately fail, and are resorted to something else that their deity might not approve of, still count as grounds for anathema? I would personally say no, since the intent of your actions is more important than the result of your intended actions, but I know that if these circumstances repeat consistently that Deities (AKA GMs) would intervene one way or another, or give said player a push to either retrain their entire class, or even retire altogether. I haven't technically gotten to that point yet, but if I had a more strict GM or Deity that I would probably have fallen simply due to incompetence.

1) are you making good faith efforts to follow your deity's will?

2) are you, having failed in those efforts, working to improve yourself so as to reduce your failures? In game terms, are you increasing your Diplomacy proficiency and your Charisma score at the levels they are permitted, are you looking for item bonuses that might help?

If the answer to both of those is yes, then the only way a deity should judge your character unworthy is if they have literally impossibly-high standards. Within the mechanics of the game, there is nothing more you can do. If that's not enough, then that might be justification for your character to tell the god to go stuff themself. I don't, however, expect that to be true for any reasonably-written god in Golarion or elsewhere.

On the other hand, if the deity thinks your character is doing fine but the character themself is questioning their path... well, that's just good drama. There's no right or wrong answer to how that struggle plays out, just good stories.

Liberty's Edge

I wrote this bit about Gorum but really it fits any deity :

Gorum is the god of glory through conflict and battle.

Like any god, Gorum does not expect you to excel or even succeed at this. But he definitely expects you to do your best reaching for this.

So if you're doing your best to follow your deity's teachings, all is right.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shelyn's Tenets wrote:
I will never destroy a work of art, nor allow one to come to harm unless greater art arises from its loss. I will only sacrifice art if doing so allows me to save a life, for untold beauty can arise from an awakened soul.


These beings are capable of destruction. You would not have to defeat them if they posed no threat.

They are components of something greater. Per your words Shelyn sees them as art precisely because they are "considered part of an active story".

Thus destruction is in their nature, which you express by their demise. As a painter knowingly expends their finely made materials to create imagery, through their loss this story grows, destroying art to pursue greater art.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Even ignoring the specific circumstances here. Codes of Conduct and anathema are about a character holding themselves to a certain standard and striving to behave in a certain way.

"Roll a d20 to see if you fall" is pretty much completely against the spirit and design of that and probably rarely a good direction as a result.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / A champion is forced to fight after a failed diplomacy roll. Grounds for anathema? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.