Longstrider and Fly

[theservantsllcleanitup]

Gary Bush wrote:

How do you read the term "spell effect"?

Effects are defined starting on page 453

The section does not seem to have any indication of whether an effect "keeps track" of anything or if its parameters are set and unchanging once it is created. But there is precedent for a spell effect that can in fact end based on requirements changing. It was referenced earlier in the thread.

[Zapp]

Castilliano wrote:

Thanks for your opinion, even if stated as advice.

I'd rather have examples. And so far, the examples point me toward accepting that Fly Speed should be based on (land) Speed, even if Status or temporary bonuses are involved, yet not when said bonuses expire.
Simple enough, doesn't contradict a rule, and easy to communicate with my players.

I'm sure your mother, were she to read the rulebook, could tell you Pathfinder 2 is not an example-defined ruleset. It is exception-based, which is not the same thing.

But whatever. You do you.

[Zapp]

Gary Bush wrote:

Remember, Speed (with a capital 'S') is defined in the rules.

Remember, there is no strict reading of the RAW that remains unambiguous when analyzed.

In other words, human interpretation is needed. The rules simply aren't stringent enough.

I predict your ruling, that Fly keeps its own set of variables, will end up being untenable as it leads to further need for complex exceptions. So I recommend against it.

[Zapp]

Asgetrion wrote:

While I agree that spells such as fly should have granted a fixed value for whatever Speed they grant, and it would have made everything work smoother in regard to how different buffs and debuffs affect your Speeds, I don't think any of us disagree how these things work by RAW. Tether cannot reduce the speed of flying creatures because the failed save only affects land Speed. Also, unless you're about to take a swing at them in melee, you try to stay beyond the range of spellcasters, rendering that spell less effective anyway.

Having said that, I suspect the designers had different ideas on how they would work (RAI) when they wrote those aforementioned spells. IMO it's quite obvious, based on the descriptions and the names of these spells, that tether, fleet and longstrider were all supposed on affect only your land Speed. Or, at least, they didn't consider flying when they wrote those spells.

I also get the point about "dynamic" speed; I agree that it'd make sense that spells can affect your current flying Speed. I just haven't seen any that could, per RAW, for the reasons outlined in many other posts. Whether this was intentional or an oversight due to many changes to Speed during and after the playtest process, I cannot say. It may also be that the design team thought their definition of Speed in the Core Rulebook is so strongly worded that it cannot be misintepreted, but this works only as long as those who design spells keep in mind that they must mention all forms of Speed affected by each spell.

Thank you for your well-reasoned post.

However, there's one additional step of logic you need to take:

Arguing why this leads to a sustainable ruleset (or rulings of said set).

Just proclaiming why a certain interpretation "must" be the right one, without taking the time to analyze the impact of said interpretation isn't going to be helpful.

After all, about the only thing we can all agree on is that the rules are NOT clear-cut. Human interpretation IS needed.

So you (or I) need to argue that our preferred interpretation is going to stabilize the situation as opposed to leading down a rabiit hole of further and further rulings, with an ever-more complex set of exceptions.

Cheers

[Sapient]

Gary Bush wrote:

With the Fly Speed being set at the time that the spell is cast...

While I originally thought the situation was ambiguous, I've become convinced that Fly Speed is not fixed, nor set at the time Fly is cast. I will try to explain my reasoning. First, I'll (re)post some of the rules text.

Fly wrote:

Duration 5 minutes

The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.

Cast a Spell wrote:

You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire. Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a variable number of actions depending on the spell, as listed in each spell’s stat block. As soon as the spellcasting actions are complete, the spell effect occurs.

Effect Duration wrote:

Most effects are discrete, creating an instantaneous effect when you let the GM know what actions you are going to use. Firing a bow, moving to a new space, or taking something out of your pack all resolve instantly. Other effects instead last for a certain duration. Once the duration has elapsed, the effect ends.

Spell Durations wrote:

The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts. Spells that last for more than an instant have a Duration entry.

The Fly spell has a duration and an effect. Because it has a duration, the effect is not instantaneous, but rather is applied at all times until the duration has been exceeded.

This means that for every turn on every round for a duration of five minutes, a character who is being affected by the Fly spell has

"a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater."

This is the effect, as written in the spell description. The effect is not "a fly Speed equal to its Speed as it was at the time of casting or 20 feet, whichever is greater."

On round 1, the character has "a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater."

On round 15, the character has "a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater."

On round 28, the character has "a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater."

At any moment, the character's fly speed is equal to its Speed. Therefore, anything that affects the Speed of the creature during the Duration of the Fly spell also affects the Fly speed granted by the Fly spell.

Gaining:

I have also considered the meaning of the word "gaining", and can discuss my thinking, but wanted to be concise for this post.

[Nefreet]

I like that a lot. Thank you.

[Gary Bush]

theservantsllcleanitup wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

How do you read the term "spell effect"?

Effects are defined starting on page 453

The section does not seem to have any indication of whether an effect "keeps track" of anything or if its parameters are set and unchanging once it is created. But there is precedent for a spell effect that can in fact end based on requirements changing. It was referenced earlier in the thread.

Thank you!

[MongrelHorde]

Sapient wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

With the Fly Speed being set at the time that the spell is cast...

While I originally thought the situation was ambiguous, I've become convinced that Fly Speed is not fixed, nor set at the time Fly is cast. I will try to explain my reasoning. First, I'll (re)post some of the rules text.

Fly wrote:

Duration 5 minutes

The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.

Cast a Spell wrote:

You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire. Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a variable number of actions depending on the spell, as listed in each spell’s stat block. As soon as the spellcasting actions are complete, the spell effect occurs.

Effect Duration wrote:

Most effects are discrete, creating an instantaneous effect when you let the GM know what actions you are going to use. Firing a bow, moving to a new space, or taking something out of your pack all resolve instantly. Other effects instead last for a certain duration. Once the duration has elapsed, the effect ends.

Spell Durations wrote:

The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts. Spells that last for more than an instant have a Duration entry.

The Fly spell has a duration and an effect. Because it has a duration, the effect is not instantaneous, but rather is applied at all times until the duration has been exceeded.

This means that for every turn on every round for a duration of five minutes, a character who is being affected by the Fly spell has

"a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater."

This is the effect, as written in the spell description. The effect is...

This is the most persuasive argument yet.

[Gary Bush]

Zapp wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

Remember, Speed (with a capital 'S') is defined in the rules.

Remember, there is no strict reading of the RAW that remains unambiguous when analyzed.

In other words, human interpretation is needed. The rules simply aren't stringent enough.

I predict your ruling, that Fly keeps its own set of variables, will end up being untenable as it leads to further need for complex exceptions. So I recommend against it.

I am not sure if you realize it or not but your comments have become very nasty and pointed. I don't think you intend that but experience has shown me (at least) that the more nasty and pointed a comment is, the less likely people will support the poster of the nasty and pointed comments.

You have valid points. There is no reason to become personal. We are allowed to have different views and we all need to respect each other even if we have a different view.

I don't really care which way this falls. I just want someone in authority to give us direction.