Longstrider and Fly


Rules Discussion

1 to 50 of 159 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

Hi Gents,

last noon in session we discussed about this:

I'm an elf (base speed 30ft.) with Longstraider (now speed 40ft.)

If I cast Fly, my fly speed is 30ft., as the original base speed, or 40ft., enhanced by Longstrider?

Cheers.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Fly wrote:
The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.
You lengthen your stride beyond what should be possible. You gain a +10-foot status bonus to your Speed.

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't work together.


I think, Nefreet, that the rules haven't clarified whether a status bonus (or most any typed bonus for that matter) counts as part of your personal speed stat (or just augments it as a separate component), especially if the bonus is temporary. BTW, I agree with you, it's just I haven't found a foundation for choosing which speed to use for Fly: base or boosted.

Given PF2's design basis against multiplicative buffs, one might think you use one's unbuffed land speed.
Yet that seems odd to me because I think the point of Fly spells (and other abilities that give you a new movement type) is to give you that movement type w/o increasing your speed...which might be currently boosted, meaning that's a fine measure of what the spell gives you.
Since you have land speed X (irregardless of source), it balances fine with you flying X.
As mentioned, I think the latter makes more sense.

And then what happens if your land speed changes while you have Fly active? I'd rule your Fly speed changes, yet an argument could be made that you keep the speed gained at the time of casting because that's when the spell "checked" and what the spell gave you.

ETA: Why you up so early, Nefreet? Get some rest. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I tend to not allow bonuses to effect stats that are being derived. I don't remember what exact thread I posted about this in, but it had something to do with the Barbarian's Raging Athlete feat.

Basically my argument boiled down to this: If a Barbarian was wearing boots of speed, and they used the feat raging athlete to gain a Swim Speed, would that Swim speed benefit from the Boots of Speed once, or twice?

Boots of Speed provide a +5 item bonus to your land, swim and climb speeds. But if your Swim and Climb speeds are derived from your land speed, their "base" state would be your land speed +5, which would then be modified another 5 feet by boots of speed.

This is why generally I only allow my players to derive stats from an unmodified version of a stat.

Or would you allow the Fly speed of a character who is under the effects of Longstrider to benefit from a Status bonus to their Fly speed?


beowulf99 wrote:

I tend to not allow bonuses to effect stats that are being derived. I don't remember what exact thread I posted about this in, but it had something to do with the Barbarian's Raging Athlete feat.

Basically my argument boiled down to this: If a Barbarian was wearing boots of speed, and they used the feat raging athlete to gain a Swim Speed, would that Swim speed benefit from the Boots of Speed once, or twice?

Boots of Speed provide a +5 item bonus to your land, swim and climb speeds. But if your Swim and Climb speeds are derived from your land speed, their "base" state would be your land speed +5, which would then be modified another 5 feet by boots of speed.

This is why generally I only allow my players to derive stats from an unmodified version of a stat.

Or would you allow the Fly speed of a character who is under the effects of Longstrider to benefit from a Status bonus to their Fly speed?

Beowulf99,

Those items are good examples. I'd forgotten about how they throw a wrench in the system!
Though are they saying +5 land & +5 swim because those have to be listed separately or because they're being thorough and a +5 land speed would give you a +5 swim speed (typically)?
Or maybe we're supposed to recognize the double-dipping and limit it to once per calculation (not that they've advised this, yet neither have they given us a formula by which to calculate).


CRB PG. 606 "Boots of Speed" wrote:

These sleek red boots make your legs feel like

they’re bursting with energy. You gain a +5-foot
item bonus to your land Speed and to any
climb or swim Speeds you have.

The other problem is that Longstrider doesn't say anything about boosting your fly speed, so I don't think you could consider it a bonus to that fly speed at all. So all it takes is a Bard Triple Timing, and suddenly you have an even more absurdly boosted fly speed of 50.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
CRB, Pg 463 wrote:
Since Speed by itself refers to your land Speed, rules text concerning these special movement types specifies the movement types to which it applies.

The other type of special movement types include Fly.

Based upon this, I would say that Longstrider only applies to land Speed, not Fly Speed.

Edit: This still bothers me.. maybe we need to FAQ this question? Oh wait, we can't for some strange reason....


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Question is not if Longstrider enhances the fly speed, and it doesn't, but if the fly speed recevied fromt the Fly spell is:

30ft. - as the base land speed, even if I have already casted Longstrider
40ft. - as the enhanced land speed I have at the moment I cast Fly thanks to Longstrider


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You only have one "Speed". No rule discusses having to keep track of a "base" speed.

Therefore it is crystal clear Longstrider applies to Fly and that anyone saying otherwise is houseruling it.


beowulf99 wrote:
Boots of Speed provide a +5 item bonus to your land, swim and climb speeds. But if your Swim and Climb speeds are derived from your land speed, their "base" state would be your land speed +5, which would then be modified another 5 feet by boots of speed.

That's unsound logic.

Why would a specific magic item be the basis of a general ruling.

Occam's razor tells us that when asked to choose between:
1) Boots of Speed just happened to be sloppily written, just a wee bit
and
2) The devs intended Boots of Speed to provide the yardstick for the entire rule on speeds

...we should choose #1

Ergo, if you have a Speed of 25, wear Boots of Speed and get Feet to Fins cast on you,

Your Land speed would be 5+5=10
Your Swim speed would be 25+5=30

This is not difficult.

That said, ruling that Speed bonuses don't stack across speed types (which effectively is what you're saying) is a fine houserule.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Earlier, I wrote:
Fly wrote:
The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.
You lengthen your stride beyond what should be possible. You gain a +10-foot status bonus to your Speed.
I don't see any reason why they wouldn't work together.

I feel the text of these spells bears repeating, and I think some responses are overthinking their interaction.

Fly is based off of your Speed. Longstrider increases your Speed. Therefore, someone under the effect of Longstrider flies faster.

If there seems to be an unclear interaction with one or more abilities or items, such as Raging Leaper and Boots of Speed, it's probably that interaction that needs to be FAQ'd, and not the underlying rules.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zapp wrote:

You only have one "Speed". No rule discusses having to keep track of a "base" speed.

Therefore it is crystal clear Longstrider applies to Fly and that anyone saying otherwise is houseruling it.

Except for where the CRB specifically says that "Speed" is land Speed...

CRB 463 wrote:

Speed

Most characters and monsters have a speed statistic—
also called land Speed—which indicates how quickly
they can move across the ground. When you use the
Stride action, you move a number of feet equal to your
Speed. Numerous other abilities also allow you to move,
from Crawling to Leaping, and most of them are based
on your Speed in some way. Whenever a rule mentions
your Speed without specifying a type, it’s referring to
your land Speed.

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Everything I'm seeing in the rules seems to indicate that any bonus to your Speed (Otherwise known as Land Speed) would also apply to Fly since the spell specifically indicates that you gain a Fly Speed equal to your (Land) Speed. For it to function any other way Fly would need a carveout stating that Bonuses to your (Land) Speed don't apply to the Fly spell effects.

Example
(Land) Speed = 30 ft + 10 ft Status Bonus from Longstrider = (Land) Speed 40 ft > Apply Fly spell which grants you a Fly Speed equal to your (Land) Speed = 40 ft

Looks solid to me.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Castilliano wrote:
Why you up so early, Nefreet? Get some rest. :)

My County is currently under lockdown, and I'm off work for at least three weeks, so I have ample amounts of rest available =(


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zapp wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Boots of Speed provide a +5 item bonus to your land, swim and climb speeds. But if your Swim and Climb speeds are derived from your land speed, their "base" state would be your land speed +5, which would then be modified another 5 feet by boots of speed.

That's unsound logic.

Why would a specific magic item be the basis of a general ruling.

Occam's razor tells us that when asked to choose between:
1) Boots of Speed just happened to be sloppily written, just a wee bit
and
2) The devs intended Boots of Speed to provide the yardstick for the entire rule on speeds

...we should choose #1

Ergo, if you have a Speed of 25, wear Boots of Speed and get Feet to Fins cast on you,

Your Land speed would be 5+5=10
Your Swim speed would be 25+5=30

This is not difficult.

That said, ruling that Speed bonuses don't stack across speed types (which effectively is what you're saying) is a fine houserule.

The question really is whether a bonus specifically to Land Speed, which is what Longstrider is, should apply to a speed derived from your land speed. I say no, with confidence.

You ask why a specific magic item would be the basis for a general ruling. Well, because that same ruling would have bearing on any other effect which improved multiple speeds in an edition of the game where "Speed" is your Landspeed and there are several ways of using that as a base for other types of "Speeds" available as early as level 4.

Take Triple Time for example. The same logic posited by the OP would dictate that under the effects of both Fly and Triple Time a character would have a total Fly speed of 10 higher than their land speed, which equates to an overall bonus of 20. 10 from Triple Time applying to the Fly speed itself and 10 more from Triple time increasing the stat that the Fly speed is derived from, "Speed".

There is no specific rule in the CRB that specifies how to deal with stats derived from other stats. Instead we are left to determine how such interactions work on a case by case and table by table basis. I think I provided a fairly reasonable justification for why you shouldn't include bonuses in derived stats; it opens the door to stacking bonuses of the same type in the worst, in my opinion, case or allows players to apply a bonus normally not meant for those speeds in another case like in the case of Longstrider and Fly.

I will say that Feet to Fins is interesting, as it is the only effect I am aware of that ever refers to "Normal Speed" or any "Normal" statistic, which would make my ruling a bit sticky. But applying Occam's Razor would dictate that Feet to Fins is worded the way it is to prevent you from reducing your Land Speed to 5, then deriving your swim speed from it in it's reduced state with no bearing on other instances of altering your Speed.

Nefreet wrote:
My County is currently under lockdown, and I'm off work for at least three weeks, so I have ample amounts of rest available =(

Same here. I am currently waiting on my Covid test results. Stupid casino work and stupid inopportune cold symptoms.


Aratorin wrote:
Zapp wrote:

You only have one "Speed". No rule discusses having to keep track of a "base" speed.

Therefore it is crystal clear Longstrider applies to Fly and that anyone saying otherwise is houseruling it.

Except for where the CRB specifically says that "Speed" is land Speed...

Allow me to repeat myself from above:

Zapp wrote:

That's unsound logic.

Why would a specific magic item be the basis of a general ruling.

Occam's razor tells us that when asked to choose between:
1) Boots of Speed just happened to be sloppily written, just a wee bit
and
2) The devs intended Boots of Speed to provide the yardstick for the entire rule on speeds

...we should choose #1


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

I feel the text of these spells bears repeating, and I think some responses are overthinking their interaction.

Fly is based off of your Speed. Longstrider increases your Speed. Therefore, someone under the effect of Longstrider flies faster.

If there seems to be an unclear interaction with one or more abilities or items, such as Raging Leaper and Boots of Speed, it's probably that interaction that needs to be FAQ'd, and not the underlying rules.

Themetricsystem wrote:
Everything I'm seeing in the rules seems to indicate that any bonus to your Speed (Otherwise known as Land Speed) would also apply to Fly since the spell specifically indicates that you gain a Fly Speed equal to your (Land) Speed. For it to function any other way Fly would need a carveout stating that Bonuses to your (Land) Speed don't apply to the Fly spell effects.

Absolutely.

However, we can and should extend our understanding to those instinctively feeling it to be wrong for a land speed spell increase to make you fly faster.

I believe the more friendly approach is to just say

* yes, it can come across as unintuitive
* feel free to houserule it if you don't like it
* but again, Paizo clearly did not feel it worthwhile to create exceptions to your one land speed, so that Fly is improved by Longstrider is not only RAW but RAI as well
* again, that doesn't mean Paizo's opinion weighs more than yours - so go ahead and houserule it

The real story here is:

One of the benefits of relegating this issue to a houserule is that as such it is really easy to explain to your group. "You can't fly faster just because you run faster" or somesuch. Intuitive, easy, done.

But if it were to be made an official rule, you would need official text. And then you would have to formally separate your "base" speeds from any bonuses to that speed.

And that quickly becomes not-worth-it levels of complex.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
beowulf99 wrote:
Take Triple Time for example.

No, let's not.

You really haven't understood me if you keep bringing up specific examples.

No general rule is defined by specific examples.

That's just not how it works.

I wish you luck in your gaming, but please don't point to specific items and try to argue that changes the general rule. It is *illogical*, *illogical* and *illogical*.

Instead accept you're using a houserule that I personally feel is entirely justifiable and intuitive (but honestly not one I'll be using myself).

PLEASE accept that your level of granularity would have been a mess to codify as a formal rule. Only a small mess, sure, but still, something Paizo clearly did not bother with.

beowulf99 wrote:


Take Triple Time for example. The same logic posited by the OP would dictate that under the effects of both Fly and Triple Time a character would have a total Fly speed of 10 higher than their land speed, which equates to an overall bonus of 20. 10 from Triple Time applying to the Fly speed itself and 10 more from Triple time increasing the stat that the Fly speed is derived from, "Speed".

So don't use the OP's logic.

This isn't hard. This isn't a computer program where the GM is expected to blindly follow instruction after instruction - that would have made the already-bloated rulebook insufferable. When faced with a choice between two interpretations, one clearly abusive or absurd (in this case recursive), perhaps don't choose that interpretation?

Triple Time increases each speed by +10. Note how no speed is increased by +20.

There really is nothing else to be said.


Gosh, I think I agree with Zapp on something...

Huh.

But I would just never apply a bonus recursively because that makes no sense.

Fly + Longstrider = (Land Speed + 10 status bonus) ft. fly speed.
Fly + Triple Time = (Land Speed + 10 status bonus) ft. fly speed or (Land Speed) + 10 status bonus ft. fly speed.

Stated another way, Status bonuses don't stack.

The expression
(Land Speed + 10 status bonus) + 10 status bonus
requires one of those status bonuses to drop out.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Zapp wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Take Triple Time for example.

No, let's not.

You really haven't understood me if you keep bringing up specific examples.

No general rule is defined by specific examples.

That's just not how it works.

I wish you luck in your gaming, but please don't point to specific items and try to argue that changes the general rule. It is *illogical*, *illogical* and *illogical*.

Instead accept you're using a houserule that I personally feel is entirely justifiable and intuitive (but honestly not one I'll be using myself).

PLEASE accept that your level of granularity would have been a mess to codify as a formal rule. Only a small mess, sure, but still, something Paizo clearly did not bother with.

beowulf99 wrote:


Take Triple Time for example. The same logic posited by the OP would dictate that under the effects of both Fly and Triple Time a character would have a total Fly speed of 10 higher than their land speed, which equates to an overall bonus of 20. 10 from Triple Time applying to the Fly speed itself and 10 more from Triple time increasing the stat that the Fly speed is derived from, "Speed".

So don't use the OP's logic.

This isn't hard. This isn't a computer program where the GM is expected to blindly follow instruction after instruction - that would have made the already-bloated rulebook insufferable. When faced with a choice between two interpretations, one clearly abusive or absurd (in this case recursive), perhaps don't choose that interpretation?

Triple Time increases each speed by +10. Note how no speed is increased by +20.

There really is nothing else to be said.

I wasn't going to address your point directly. Frankly, speaking with you is difficult as you come off as rude. But I will try to have a reasonable discussion here in lieu of letting the thread devolve further.

You say that my bringing up examples of the rules in action is illogical when trying to demonstrate ways in which the rules have odd interactions. That is funny, since Paizo very much did decide to address just that issue.

CRB PG. 444 Game Conventions, "Ambiguous Rules" wrote:

Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one

version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems
to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t
work as intended, work with your group to find a good
solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

This clearly falls within the bounds of ambiguous rules. On the face of it, you have a situation where depending on the interpretation taken by the GM at the table a player could begin to stack bonuses that in no way should be stacked.

I simply wanted to demonstrate that it is not in the interest of a good game to allow that sort of loophole, and posited how I approach this exact situation.

When Paizo is silent on a segment of the rules, it is by default up to the GM and the gaming group to decide how to proceed.

Should this sort of advice be posted in the Advice forum? No, as it has to do with the mechanics of the rules and their interaction directly.

I never stated that a GM should be, "...expected to blindly follow instruction after instruction," when adjudicating the rules. Quite the opposite in fact. I simply tried to explain the reasons behind my own home ruling on this subject in such a way that another GM could use it to come to their own conclusion. If I was advocating blind "video game" logic, I would have said something to the tune of, "Yeah those two bonuses definitely interact that way. Your Speed is increased, then you get another bonus on top to your new speed. Sweet dood."

But that isn't what I said, is it? Instead I laid out the issue and what problems it can cause.

As to specific items and abilities being used as examples to support a ruling, how do you figure that this is somehow "illogical"? The rules are silent on the matter. The only thing we have to base any kind of ruling on is the interactions between abilities and items. What is illogical is refusing to look at specific scenarios and instead pretending that there is a hard written rule, or even an implied method for dealing with this issue somewhere in the CRB. There is not as far as I am aware.

Feel free to reply Zapp. We can tilt again if you want. But this Windmill has dragon's teeth.


If you're saying

"preventing Longstrider from making you Fly faster is an excellent houserule that I heartily suggest everyone adopt"

then I have no issue, Beowulf99.

I will give you that, on a close rereading of your posts you never actually claim your interpretation to be the RAW.

If you feel your posts were met with resistance, however, the cause is you not being sufficiently clear you're only arguing for what gives at your own table.


Zapp wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
Zapp wrote:

You only have one "Speed". No rule discusses having to keep track of a "base" speed.

Therefore it is crystal clear Longstrider applies to Fly and that anyone saying otherwise is houseruling it.

Except for where the CRB specifically says that "Speed" is land Speed...

Allow me to repeat myself from above:

Zapp wrote:

That's unsound logic.

Why would a specific magic item be the basis of a general ruling.

Occam's razor tells us that when asked to choose between:
1) Boots of Speed just happened to be sloppily written, just a wee bit
and
2) The devs intended Boots of Speed to provide the yardstick for the entire rule on speeds

...we should choose #1

So you're saying that we should ignore the specific rules as written? To be clear. You stated:

Quote:

You only have one "Speed". No rule discusses having to keep track of a "base" speed.

Therefore it is crystal clear Longstrider applies to Fly and that anyone saying otherwise is houseruling it.

The CRB specifically and unequivocally says you are wrong.


Aratorin wrote:

The CRB specifically and unequivocally says you are wrong.

The CRB can and should interpreted only one way:

Longstrider boosts your Fly speed.


Zapp wrote:
Aratorin wrote:

The CRB specifically and unequivocally says you are wrong.

The CRB can and should interpreted only one way:

Longstrider boosts your Fly speed.

If that's how you want to house rule it, that's fine. But the rules do not back that up. Don't expect it to work that way in organized play.

Grand Lodge

I wonder why they designed Fly like this.

Shouldn't the magic make everyone fly the same speed?
What purpose does linking it to normal speed have?
Why does a flying dwarf fly slower than a flying elf?

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Gary Bush wrote:
CRB, Pg 463 wrote:
Since Speed by itself refers to your land Speed, rules text concerning these special movement types specifies the movement types to which it applies.

The other type of special movement types include Fly.

Based upon this, I would say that Longstrider only applies to land Speed, not Fly Speed.

Edit: This still bothers me.. maybe we need to FAQ this question? Oh wait, we can't for some strange reason....

Ok having slept on it and letting the question buzy around my brain, I have changed my mind. As I stated in my earlier post, I was bothered by my reading of the rules.

I think the Longstrider increase to Speed would be picked up by a Fly spell. This is a change from your first take of the question.

What troubles me is timing. What if Fly was cast first, then Longstrider? Would Fly get a bump? I would say no because when the Fly spell was cast the Fly Speed is set by the current Speed of the target.

On other discussions about the stacking of status bonuses, it is clear that they do not stack.

And on a final note, everyone please keep it friendly? We all love the same game.

Liberty's Edge

Aratorin wrote:
Zapp wrote:
Longstrider boosts your Fly speed.
If that's how you want to house rule it, that's fine. But the rules do not back that up. Don't expect it to work that way in organized play.

This is so very important for those of us who play organized play. And I am now of the opinion that Longstride would boost Fly Speed.

This is why we need to get this question to the attention of the designers so they can give us the proper ruling, likely in a FAQ.


Aratorin wrote:
Zapp wrote:


The CRB can and should interpreted only one way:

Longstrider boosts your Fly speed.

If that's how you want to house rule it, that's fine. But the rules do not back that up. Don't expect it to work that way in organized play.

When I earlier said

"You only have one "Speed". No rule discusses having to keep track of a "base" speed."

I followed that exact rule you quoted.

I wasn't talking about land, swim, fly speeds when I mentioned "Speed". Just as the rule said, assume land speed.

No, I meant that of your (land) speed, there's not two components you need to track separately. There's not a "base" part and a "bonus" part.

There's just Speed.

So anything that increases your (land) speed, increases your fly speed from Fly.

Any other interpretation fails Occam's Razor and relies on anecdotal evidence (="look at this item here...").

Is it clearly stated? No. Would it work as a computer program? No.

But that does not mean you're using sound logic to argue the RAW is telling us otherwise.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Gary Bush wrote:
What troubles me is timing. What if Fly was cast first, then Longstrider? Would Fly get a bump? I would say no because when the Fly spell was cast the Fly Speed is set by the current Speed of the target.

I don't see a reason why it should be static:

You have a Speed of 30 feet, and cast Fly. Your Fly Speed is 30 feet. You increase your Speed by X feet. Your Fly Speed increases by X feet. Someone casts a cold spell on you, reducing your Speed by Y feet. Your Fly Speed reduces by Y feet.

Seems easy and intuitive to me.

Sczarni

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I want to "like" Zapp's posts, but I dislike using language such as "logical", "illogical" and "RAW". Those words don't help to further any discussion. You never see them used in professional settings or debates.

We're all reading the same text and interpreting it in our own ways. Don't hide behind a word to make your argument. Support your argument with evidence and reasoning instead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aratorin wrote:
Zapp wrote:

You only have one "Speed". No rule discusses having to keep track of a "base" speed.

Therefore it is crystal clear Longstrider applies to Fly and that anyone saying otherwise is houseruling it.

Except for where the CRB specifically says that "Speed" is land Speed...

CRB 463 wrote:

Speed

Most characters and monsters have a speed statistic—
also called land Speed—which indicates how quickly
they can move across the ground. When you use the
Stride action, you move a number of feet equal to your
Speed. Numerous other abilities also allow you to move,
from Crawling to Leaping, and most of them are based
on your Speed in some way. Whenever a rule mentions
your Speed without specifying a type, it’s referring to
your land Speed.

Correct as far as it goes. Longstrider would not increase your fly speed if you had one from your ancestry. But the Fly spell is based off of your speed which is explicitly increased by Longstrider. Or are you trying to say that feats that increase your speed, such as Fleet, do not apply when under the effects of the Fly spell?

Horizon Hunters

I would agree with Zapp that Longstrider would affect your Fly speed from the Fly spell. Mostly because that's the simplest ruling (to me) and it seems overly restrictive to not allow the expenditure of a spell slot to increase your land speed to not convey its benefit to a spell that takes your land speed into account.

Without an errata entry or something similar I think it would be a rare circumstance where a GM would take on a restrictive interpretation especially when weird circumstances like the use of Triple Time spell increasing two different speed can be easily resolved by simply realizing that Fly calculation is an "or" statement and that Status bonuses shouldn't stack.

Basically I see it as LongStrider adding 10 to your speed (assumed landspeed) which is used in the Fly Spell calculation. Triple Time adds 10 to your land speed and to your fly speed but since when comboing it with the Fly spell we are looking at it either being

A. Your land Speed +10 (so same benefit as casting Fly after Longstrider) Or....
B. Your newly gained Fly Speed of 20 + 10 (whichever of the two between A and B are greater)

Getting the same Status Bonus again from Triple Time would be double-dipping. I am sure there are those that disagree but this seems to be the most reasonable interpretation where each component is doing "something" but nothing is doing too much.


Zapp wrote:
Aratorin wrote:

The CRB specifically and unequivocally says you are wrong.

The CRB can and should interpreted only one way:

Longstrider boosts your Fly speed.

And again, I feel that this falls well into too good to be true territory.

Zapp wrote:
"You only have one "Speed". No rule discusses having to keep track of a "base" speed."

Well, except for the spell Feet to Fins. This is funny because it sets a precedent in the rules that we can use to modify or re-balance other effects in our games. And again, with how ambiguous this particular case is, it should be examined and ruled on by the GM at any table.

I personally do not allow a spell that specifically increases your Land Speed to increase any other speed, even if those other speeds are based on your land speed. This "feels" like an unintended effect to me, and depending on how you apply it could allow further unintended interactions, like the stacking of bonuses.

The argument goes like this: Longstrider increases the players "speed". Fly grants them their fly speed. The player then benefits from some other status bonus to their fly speed, doesn't matter which one specifically. On what grounds do you restrict the other effect from modifying the Fly speed?

There are 3 options that I can see.

1. Longstrider should not be allowed to modify derived stats. It only mentions modifying "Land speed" and thus should have no effect on climb, swim, fly, or other speeds.

2. Longstrider does effect derived stats, and counts as a status bonus to those stats. This would prevent "double" stacking status bonuses, but could allow a party without access to things like Triple Time or other effects which boost other speeds to access a status bonus to non-land speed. You decide whether this is imbalanced.

3. Longstrider does effect derived stats, but does not count as a status bonus to those speeds. This is the most troublesome interpretation, as it allows the stacking of bonuses that should not be stacked. Longstrider provides a Status bonus to land speed only, Fly then derives your Fly speed from that speed. Under this interpretation you would then be eligible to apply another Status bonus to your Fly speed, as your Fly speed hasn't directly been targeted by a status bonus yet. This also allows "double dipping" from single effects like Boots of Speed in the case of swim and climb or Triple Time for any speed.

Unfortunately as much as say that the most "RAW" appropriate interpretation is 2, it really is 3. And that is well into "too good to be true" territory. My preferred option is 1. It is the simplest to resolve in practice, and makes the most sense to me.

As to feats and class features that increase speed, those would definitely effect derived speeds. They typically don't provide a bonus at all, they increases your speed permanently, and can't be "turned off" unless you retrain your feet.

Basically, don't apply any effect that you have to write in "next to" the Speed entry on your character sheet to derived stats. Couldn't be simpler in practice.


The simplest fact is that there is no way to resolve the ruleset programmatically. That is, they would lead to a "compute error" since they are not clear and unambiguous enough.

But some of you are arguing that this fact should lead us to invent new rules to cope. This is a fallacy.

The unequivocal solution is to simply acknowledge that every word isn't exactly where it needs to be, and interpret the rules as straight-forwardly as possibly. Do not involve "real world logic" or what feels intuitive - that is the realm of houserulings.

Anything else is more complicated, assumes extra rules and just isn't supported by the RAW.

So.

There is only one (land) speed. Anything affecting it affects it fully not in part. Still, assume no recursiveness or other edge cases are intentional. They're simply the result of using natural (=sloppy) language. This set of bluntly narrow guidelines serves us well in not making up rules that aren't there.

Since Fly takes its fly speed from your (land) speed, Longstrider makes you fly faster.

Feet to Fins sets your Swim speed to your (land) speed, so Longstrider makes you swim faster. The word "normal" is likely not meant to introduce a special case just for this one spell, especially since it's an reasonable usage of natural English. Your land speed is 5 ft (and isn't improved by Longstrider; remember "no recursiveness"?).

Boots of Speed increase your "land", climb and swim speeds by 5. Since claiming that recursive application should make us invent new rules is the more complicated solution, let's instead just apply the speed increases last. Arguing "but we just said Longstrider shouldn't apply to your Land speed, why apply Boots" creates a more complicated ruleset than simply slapping on the bonuses last, so that is the likely RAI. (there's no "the bonuses apply only to speeds that doesn't modify other speeds" clause, which would quickly lead to absurdly complex rules)

Thus a character with 25 ft Speed that wears the boots and gets all three spells cast on her ends up with the following speeds:

Land speed 5 + Boots 5 = 10
Swim speed 25 + Longstrider 10 + Boots 5 = 40
Climb speed 25 + Boots 5 = 30

The point here is to avoid any ruling that makes things more complex.

And the point is especially to avoid arguing "because that *points finger* would be complicated, the rules must mean this *points to invented extra rules*"

That's the fallacy. Justifying creating extra rules to avoid complexity brought on by interpreting the actual rules too narrowly, too literally.

In effect, those of you guilty of this misuse Paizo's usage of natural english to justify creating new rules.

Nothing wrong with that... as your houserule. But the practice has no place in a discussion about RAW.

Zapp

PS. Regarding the Fly speed I acknowledge it is more complicated. Sure, it feels generous and nice to rule that Feet to Fins redirect references to (land) Speed to your Swim speed (making your fly speed 40), but there's no actual rules support for that. The miserly interpretation is a fly speed of 10 (Speed 5 + boots 5) or even only 5.

My own take here would be to say "don't cast Fly and Feet to Fins at the same time" and rule the latter.


beowulf99 wrote:
Well, except for the spell Feet to Fins. This is funny because it sets a precedent in the rules that we can use to modify or re-balance other effects in our games.

No. Just no.

Again, you're not particularly clear about what you advocate for your own table and what you're arguing is the RAW.

If you want to say "the RAW is too unclear for me to say either way" that's okay. It is not clear.

But the fact is that many Rules as Written are "troublesome" in that they go counter to intuition, experience from other games, or even (the classic) personal SCA experience.

In some (many) ways, the only justification for a rule is, at the end of the road "it's a game". Rules are made for simplicity, for balance, or perhaps just because the developer wasn't forced to kill his darlings.

The notion Longstrider lets you fly faster might feel unrealistic, be unituitive or "troublesome".

None of that is a valid argument in a RAW discussion, however. If it doesn't feel fun to you, change it :) - but don't try to muddle the picture for others.

Cheers


Zapp wrote:

Feet to Fins sets your Swim speed to your (land) speed, so Longstrider makes you swim faster. The word "normal" is likely not meant to introduce a special case just for this one spell, especially since it's an reasonable usage of natural English. Your land speed is 5 ft (and isn't improved by Longstrider; remember "no recursiveness"?).

You just broke your own logic. If the word "normal" is meaninglessness, and your Land Speed becomes 5, and you also can't increase it with external bonuses, like Longstrider after the fact because "no recursiveness" (that's not what recursive means by the way), then Feet to Fins gives you a Swim Speed equal to your 5ft Land Speed, which makes it the worst Level 3 Spell in history.


Aratorin wrote:
You just broke your own logic. If the word "normal" is meaninglessness, and your Land Speed becomes 5, and you also can't increase it with external bonuses, like Longstrider after the fact because "no recursiveness" (that's not what recursive means by the way), then Feet to Fins gives you a Swim Speed equal to your 5ft Land Speed, which makes it the worst Level 3 Spell in history.

Please read up on reductio ad absurdum. Thank you.


Zapp wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
You just broke your own logic. If the word "normal" is meaninglessness, and your Land Speed becomes 5, and you also can't increase it with external bonuses, like Longstrider after the fact because "no recursiveness" (that's not what recursive means by the way), then Feet to Fins gives you a Swim Speed equal to your 5ft Land Speed, which makes it the worst Level 3 Spell in history.
Please read up on reductio ad absurdum. Thank you.

You can refer to all the philosophical cliches you want, it doesn't make you right, nor does it in any way address what I actually said.


Zapp wrote:

The simplest fact is that there is no way to resolve the ruleset programmatically. That is, they would lead to a "compute error" since they are not clear and unambiguous enough.

But some of you are arguing that this fact should lead us to invent new rules to cope. This is a fallacy.

No, that is literally a guideline we are supposed to follow in the rulebook. Read Ambiguous Rules again. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

The designers literally tell you that you should actively fix troublesome rules. Saying that you should just play with the "RAW", whatever that is to you since it's not clear in ANY way what RAW would be in this situation, is well... illogical.

For clarity, I don't play in organized play at all. Don't really want to, so any of my arguments I am likely to make for "troublesome" rules are going to be house rules. I never claim to argue RAW in situations like this.

beowulf99 wrote:

I tend to not allow bonuses to effect stats that are being derived.

There is no specific rule in the CRB that specifies how to deal with stats derived from other stats. Instead we are left to determine how such interactions work on a case by case and table by table basis. I think I provided a fairly reasonable justification for why you shouldn't include bonuses in derived stats; it opens the door to stacking bonuses of the same type in the worst, in my opinion, case or allows players to apply a bonus normally not meant for those speeds in another case like in the case of Longstrider and Fly.

I personally do not allow a spell that specifically increases your Land Speed to increase any other speed, even if those other speeds are based on your land speed. This "feels" like an unintended effect to me, and depending on how you apply it could allow further unintended interactions, like the stacking of bonuses.

Note how I don't typically refer to RAW unless it was to show that there is no one "RAW" solution. This is what creates a troublesome rule that needs to be ruled upon.

On the other side, we have Zapp who is deciding to shove their head in the sand and run the rules as he sees them, while claiming that his interpretation is RAW. But when there is no RAW, what exactly supports their argument? Not a whole lot.

Zapp, I want you to, without addition or explanation, quote a series of rules from the CRB that show how you should resolve the OP's question. If you can't, or if you have to add any argument or explanation that is not a direct quote, you cannot say that there is a RAW method for resolving this issue. Anything said beyond that is in itself a house rule. Even your supposedly logical interpretations.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

For those who believe that increasing your Speed doesn't have an effect on the Fly spell, how about an effect that decreases your Speed?

If there was some spell or ability that "Reduces the target's Speed to 0", would a target under the effect of Fly then be immune?


Nefreet wrote:

For those who believe that increasing your Speed doesn't have an effect on the Fly spell, how about an effect that decreases your Speed?

If there was some spell or ability that "Reduces the target's Speed to 0", would a target under the effect of Fly then be immune?

To me, that would depend on the ability. If it stated "Reduce your speed to 0," then no I would say it would not apply as Speed when not specified refers to Land speed. If instead it stated, "Reduce all speeds to 0" or several specific speeds, it would effect those specific speeds.

If instead it was some sort of Permanent decrease in speed, using language similar to Fleet for example, then it would decrease speeds derived from that speed.

Essentially, if you had to scratch out the "Speed" area of your character sheet and write in a new number, it applies. If instead you wrote in the new speed in the movement types and notes, it would not apply.

I can see arguments that some situations may require special rulings. The monks incredible movement and Wind Jump for instance. Incredible movement is a status bonus to speed when not wearing armor and wind jump grants you a Fly speed equal to your Speed.

I can see a reasonable argument being able to be made that this should apply to your Wind Jump speed. In this case, I would likely allow it with the rider that the new Fly speed is not eligible for further status bonuses.

I would love to see an errata fixing Speed. In my opinion the rules should have been formatted so that any bonus that states "Speed" refers to all of your Speeds. Since most abilities that grant players other speeds typically derive those speeds from Speed, this would fix a lot of these issues.

Longstrider for example would simply increase your Landspeed with no effect on "Speed" or derived speeds. Triple Time could be simplified down to state only that it applied a 10 foot status bonus to your Speed, implying that it affects all speeds. The few corner case abilities that do grant you a specific special speed wouldn't need to be changed at all.

But that is just wishing for errata, not a comment on the state of the rules as is. As is, the only reasonable solution to me is the restrictive one: Bonuses apply only to what they say they apply to and nothing more, especially stats derived from those effected abilities.


Nefreet wrote:

For those who believe that increasing your Speed doesn't have an effect on the Fly spell, how about an effect that decreases your Speed?

If there was some spell or ability that "Reduces the target's Speed to 0", would a target under the effect of Fly then be immune?

If that is all it said, then, yes. Note how the Speed penalty given by armor specifically calls out that it affects all speeds.

Quote:

Speed Penalty

While wearing a suit of armor, you take the penalty listed in this entry to your Speed, as well as to any other movement types you have, such as a climb Speed or swim Speed, to a minimum Speed of 5 feet. If you meet the armor’s Strength threshold (see below), you reduce the penalty by 5 feet."

As does Frost Vial, albeit with different language.

Quote:

FROST VIAL

ITEM 1+
ALCHEMICAL BOMB COLD CONSUMABLE SPLASH
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
Activate [one-action] Strike
The liquid reagents in this vial rapidly absorb heat when exposed to air. A frost vial deals the listed cold damage and cold splash damage. On a hit, the target takes a status penalty to its Speeds until the end of its next turn. Many types of frost vial also grant an item bonus to attack rolls.

Cheetah's Elixer on the other hand, only impacts your Land Speed.

The only example of a Penalty that only affects Land Speed that I've been able to find is Nature's Emnity. Fly would be a counter to this.

Quote:
Vegetation springs up from every surface, giving each target a -10-foot circumstance penalty to its Speed any time it’s adjacent to the plants.


Tanglefoot spell and entangle says speeds with a s. Fleetfoot spell says speed no s. I'm guessing this argument would apply to the climb speed from spider climb?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
beowulf99 wrote:
Bonuses apply only to what they say they apply to and nothing more, especially stats derived from those effected abilities.

I don't think 'bonuses apply only to what they say they apply to' is really a relevant component of the argument here.

Nobody is arguing that bonuses that only apply to land speed apply to other types of speed as well, because they don't by definition.

They're arguing that "equal to its speed" means exactly what it says: "equal to its speed" not a "equal to its speed minus some bonuses, but not all bonuses I guess maybe."

Those are distinct arguments, don't conflate them.


Squiggit wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Bonuses apply only to what they say they apply to and nothing more, especially stats derived from those effected abilities.

I don't think 'bonuses apply only to what they say they apply to' is really a relevant component of the argument here.

Nobody is arguing that bonuses that only apply to land speed apply to other types of speed as well, because they don't by definition.

They're arguing that "equal to its speed" means exactly what it says: "equal to its speed" not a "equal to its speed minus some bonuses, but not all bonuses I guess maybe."

Those are distinct arguments, don't conflate them.

Aren't they related though? I mean, if Longstrider is able to boost that Fly speed from Fly, by virtue of increasing your land speed, why even include specific speed bonuses in the first place?

And if Longstrider does effect that fly speed added by Fly, then is that new fly speed able to benefit from further bonuses?

I don't believe that is what you believe.

The question then is why not? Any astute player will point out that Longstrider isn't directly applying to that characters flight speed. Or to any other speed that happens to be derived from Land speed, in the case of many abilities that grant swim and climb speeds.

Should those derived speeds be eligible for further status bonuses, assuming you allow them to benefit from Longstrider?

I say they should be, but they should not be eligible for the bonus from Longstrider in the first place. Simply apply bonuses to speeds singularly, to each speed individually. Neatly fixes the entire issue. Then you are free to allow exceptions as you see fit, like in the case of incredible movement and wind jump.


Nefreet wrote:

For those who believe that increasing your Speed doesn't have an effect on the Fly spell, how about an effect that decreases your Speed?

If there was some spell or ability that "Reduces the target's Speed to 0", would a target under the effect of Fly then be immune?

Thank you.

Sczarni

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I was open to the idea of being wrong when I first responded in this thread, but after this discussion I'm totally with Zapp in this camp.

If a GM told me I couldn't fly faster (using Fly) under the effect of Longstrider, I'd literally pull out my Core Rulebook, show them the text of the two abilities, and ask them to support why not. I don't see the phrase "derived speeds" anywhere in the Core Rulebook, and I would need some substantial evidence to support such a restriction.

Combining multiple effects is a thing. There are multitudes of examples of different combinations stacking. Unless someone can concretely show that this is prevented, the text of the two abilities wins out. As a "permissive rules" game system, that's how Pathfinder works.


Nefreet wrote:

I was open to the idea of being wrong when I first responded in this thread, but after this discussion I'm totally with Zapp in this camp.

If a GM told me I couldn't fly faster (using Fly) under the effect of Longstrider, I'd literally pull out my Core Rulebook, show them the text of the two abilities, and ask them to support why not. I don't see the phrase "derived speeds" anywhere in the Core Rulebook, and I would need some substantial evidence to support such a restriction.

Combining multiple effects is a thing. There are multitudes of examples of different combinations stacking. Unless someone can concretely show that this is prevented, the text of the two abilities wins out. As a "permissive rules" game system, that's how Pathfinder works.

Ok, but that works both ways then. So then if your Land Speed is 25, and you are wearing Full Plate with 16 Strength, your Fly speed is 5.

Your starting Fly Speed is 15, as it is derived from your current Land Speed of 15, and is then reduced by 10, as Full Plate specifically reduces Fly Speed by 10.

If you don't rule it that way, you are being hypocritical and using a different interpretation for each instance, just to get yourself the best result each time.


Aratorin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I was open to the idea of being wrong when I first responded in this thread, but after this discussion I'm totally with Zapp in this camp.

If a GM told me I couldn't fly faster (using Fly) under the effect of Longstrider, I'd literally pull out my Core Rulebook, show them the text of the two abilities, and ask them to support why not. I don't see the phrase "derived speeds" anywhere in the Core Rulebook, and I would need some substantial evidence to support such a restriction.

Combining multiple effects is a thing. There are multitudes of examples of different combinations stacking. Unless someone can concretely show that this is prevented, the text of the two abilities wins out. As a "permissive rules" game system, that's how Pathfinder works.

Ok, but that works both ways then. So then if your Land Speed is 25, and you are wearing Full Plate with 16 Strength, your Fly speed is 5.

Your starting Fly Speed is 15, as it is derived from your current Land Speed of 15, and is then reduced by 10, as Full Plate specifically reduces Fly Speed by 10.

If you don't rule it that way, you are being hypocritical and using a different interpretation for each instance, just to get yourself the best result each time.

Quite incendiary there, perhaps due to straw.

There are many positions here, and you might be conflating Nefreet's beyond what he's stated.
1. There are those that want alternate speeds derived from land speed (or just speed as it's usually written) to reference that speed before any bonuses or penalties. (Not Nefreet)
2. There are those wanting calculation after bonuses or penalties, once.
3. There might be those wanting it after bonus or penalties, then once again after whatever other bonuses and penalties. (like in your example) I haven't reread the thread to check, but I don't recall anyone advocating double-counting like that.

Nefreet hasn't stated he's in position 3, only 2. (Though neither do I think he's addressed his views on double-counting.)

With position 2, plate mail would only slow you down once, not twice.
A boost to all speeds would only boost fly speed once, not twice.
And so on. It's pretty straightforward to me. Fly effects give you 3D motion, yet unlike other RPGs, fly keeps you as fast as you would be without. Easy peasy.
That also matches PF2's sensibilities about avoiding multiplicative effects or stacking (or bypassing one's penalties via Flight which I most certainly exploited in PF1!) Personally, position 2 makes the most sense to me.

That said, it does bother me a bit that turning boosts/penalties on or off can alter your fly speed. But that's a conceptual issue, not a mechanics nor balance issue.


Castilliano wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I was open to the idea of being wrong when I first responded in this thread, but after this discussion I'm totally with Zapp in this camp.

If a GM told me I couldn't fly faster (using Fly) under the effect of Longstrider, I'd literally pull out my Core Rulebook, show them the text of the two abilities, and ask them to support why not. I don't see the phrase "derived speeds" anywhere in the Core Rulebook, and I would need some substantial evidence to support such a restriction.

Combining multiple effects is a thing. There are multitudes of examples of different combinations stacking. Unless someone can concretely show that this is prevented, the text of the two abilities wins out. As a "permissive rules" game system, that's how Pathfinder works.

Ok, but that works both ways then. So then if your Land Speed is 25, and you are wearing Full Plate with 16 Strength, your Fly speed is 5.

Your starting Fly Speed is 15, as it is derived from your current Land Speed of 15, and is then reduced by 10, as Full Plate specifically reduces Fly Speed by 10.

If you don't rule it that way, you are being hypocritical and using a different interpretation for each instance, just to get yourself the best result each time.

Quite incendiary there, perhaps due to straw.

There are many positions here, and you might be conflating Nefreet's beyond what he's stated.
1. There are those that want alternate speeds derived from land speed (or just speed as it's usually written) to reference that speed before any bonuses or penalties. (Not Nefreet)
2. There are those wanting calculation after bonuses or penalties, once.
3. There might be those wanting it after bonus or penalties, then once again after whatever other bonuses and penalties. (like in your example) I haven't reread the thread to check, but I don't recall anyone advocating double-counting like that.

Nefreet hasn't stated he's in position 3, only 2. (Though neither do I think he's...

What I'm saying is that position 2 isn't a valid position, as it makes boosts to Land Speed and boosts to all Speeds the same thing, which they clearly aren't.

There's nothing incendiary about it. I didn't attack anyone. I merely laid out the necessary results of that point of view. 1 and 3 are both perfectly valid views. 2 is cherry picking to gain an advantage.

Longstrider boosts your land speed only. That isn't debatable, the rules flatly state it. So, either Fly goes off of your base land speed, or it goes off of your current land speed. Either way, whatever Fly speed Fly gives you is your base Fly Speed, not a modified fly speed, and is therefore fully modifiable by whatever boosts and penalties affect fly speeds.

1 to 50 of 159 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Longstrider and Fly All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.