Longstrider and Fly


Rules Discussion

101 to 150 of 159 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Horizon Hunters

Aratorin wrote:
Goldryno wrote:

It is a single instance in one spell which is fine but (in my opinion) shouldn't be the basis for every other spell.

While option 2 simply requires you observed that your speed is already being affected by a status bonus and apply the rules as normal. You could just as easily put +10 status bonus to speed in the notes as a temporary buff and just track your speeds as normal in the speed space.

Bypassing fundamental design principles? I would say on the other side you could be seen as throwing out design principles. I really don't see that as the simpler option but as you said earlier to each their own.

But that's the problem. Your Fly speed wouldn't have a status bonus, because Longstrider does not give a bonus to your Fly speed in any situation.

If you decide to base your Fly speed off of your total Land speed, including the bonus from Longstrider, then your base Fly speed simply is whatever that total adds up to. It doesn't have a status bonus, because Longstrider explicitly doesn't modify Fly speeds. This is why using the modified Land speed as the base is inherently abusable. It bypasses the stacking limits by laundering them through another spell.

This kind of thinking is how 3.5 ended up with PunPun.

This is exactly what I'm talking about as far as a rigid ruling. Yes if you are taking things as literal as possible you can have a logically sound argument for it being abusable. Which if you follow the logic wormhole down deep enough could lead you to just preventing the rules from interacting all together.

The alternative is taking an approach that allows the rules to interact and just simply not allowing status bonus that ultimately affects speed to stack with another status bonus.

But let's say we wanted to go really strict and logical RAW. That would only allow Longstrider to apply to your flight speed and that new flight speed could then be modified by more spells. Since a status bonus to land speed is unquestionably in effect you'd have to rely on another status bonus that specifies to either ALL Speeds or just Fly speeds to further stack effects. With the exception of triple time the spells that would work this way would seem to be few.

I mentioned before I could see my opinion shifting if it became problematic. The closer I look at how interpretation #3 would pan out the less worried I am about it breaking the game. Once again a matter of opinion but if my players want to throw together a bunch of resources for a special speed situation then I'd be tempted to say go for it! Maybe it's just my play group but I think the odds of this happening frequently are either low and if it did happen could make for a potential heroic/epic moment of the team working together when the time is right.

Just to be clear not advocating for ruling #3 but I suppose when it comes down to it I'd still take it over #1.


Goldryno wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
Goldryno wrote:

It is a single instance in one spell which is fine but (in my opinion) shouldn't be the basis for every other spell.

While option 2 simply requires you observed that your speed is already being affected by a status bonus and apply the rules as normal. You could just as easily put +10 status bonus to speed in the notes as a temporary buff and just track your speeds as normal in the speed space.

Bypassing fundamental design principles? I would say on the other side you could be seen as throwing out design principles. I really don't see that as the simpler option but as you said earlier to each their own.

But that's the problem. Your Fly speed wouldn't have a status bonus, because Longstrider does not give a bonus to your Fly speed in any situation.

If you decide to base your Fly speed off of your total Land speed, including the bonus from Longstrider, then your base Fly speed simply is whatever that total adds up to. It doesn't have a status bonus, because Longstrider explicitly doesn't modify Fly speeds. This is why using the modified Land speed as the base is inherently abusable. It bypasses the stacking limits by laundering them through another spell.

This kind of thinking is how 3.5 ended up with PunPun.

This is exactly what I'm talking about as far as a rigid ruling. Yes if you are taking things as literal as possible you can have a logically sound argument for it being abusable. Which if you follow the logic wormhole down deep enough could lead you to just preventing the rules from interacting all together.

The alternative is taking an approach that allows the rules to interact and just simply not allowing status bonus that ultimately affects speed to stack with another status bonus.

But let's say we wanted to go really strict and logical RAW. That would only allow Longstrider to apply to your flight speed and that new flight speed could then be modified by more spells. Since a status bonus to land speed is unquestionably in...

Again, to each their own. If it won't negatively effect your play experience, then by all means. It isn't my intention to tell people how to rule it, only to make an argument as to how such a ruling could be abused, or lead to an imbalanced play experience.

I have experienced campaigns ruined by arguments between GM's and players who took advantage of a rule that broke the campaign for one reason or another, so I tend to take a harsh tack against loop holes or situations where a player is getting an advantage that they clearly should not be. It is for this reason that I see applying Longstrider, a bonus to your walking speed, to any speed based on that speed as abusive: It's a bonus to land speed specifically.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So for those against Status bonuses to speed being factored into fly speed, what about a Monk's Wind Jump? Does the Monk not gain their Monk speed while flying under their Monk ability?
Your Monk players will need to know because I doubt that Dwarf is thinking he'll be flying at 20'.

ETA: Abundant Step uses the same language. Without the Status bonus, that's hardly abundant.


Castilliano wrote:

So for those against Status bonuses to speed being factored into fly speed, what about a Monk's Wind Jump? Does the Monk not gain their Monk speed while flying under their Monk ability?

Your Monk players will need to know because I doubt that Dwarf is thinking he'll be flying at 20'.

ETA: Abundant Step uses the same language. Without the Status bonus, that's hardly abundant.

Abundant Step is an interesting case. I would say that for me personally, I would allow bonuses to your Speed to effect it, as it's not a new "speed" but a one off teleportation.

For Wind Jump I could see going either way. It's unfortunate that the monk's Incredible Movement bonus is counted as a Status bonus instead of a "permanent" bonus like fleet, but it is what it is. I stated earlier that in this particular case, I would be willing to allow the monk to count their Incredible Movement in the flight, as it feels like it should be counted.

But that would be an exception I would be open to.

Horizon Hunters

Under your interpretation would you also make an exception for a Barbarian with Fast Movement and Dragon Rage Wings? Or are they out of luck as far as finding synergy with those two feats?

(Apologies if you have answered earlier in this thread)


Goldryno wrote:

Under your interpretation would you also make an exception for a Barbarian with Fast Movement and Dragon Rage Wings? Or are they out of luck as far as finding synergy with those two feats?

(Apologies if you have answered earlier in this thread)

No problem, I hadn't considered that angle either. Well, personally I could be persuaded to allow that case as well, though it would depend on several factors: Whether the player is already benefiting from a bonus to fly speeds, ie- Triple Time or has access to such an effect and whether I feel that allowing that speed would hinder the campaign in a real way, and whether I feel that the player is trying to get an unfair advantage over other players. Dragon Rage Wings is limited by the length of your Rage, so you wouldn't be able to use it for the same length of time that you could use Fly so I would be more willing to give leeway with those riders.

But again, that would be an exception I would decide upon on a case by case basis. If for instance I decided that that and the Monk example of Incredible Movement + Wind Jump wasn't allowed either, then that same logic would apply to this case.

One of the key differences to me is the source of those benefits. Since they are coming from either a feat or a class feature, I would tend to be more lenient. I would never allow Longstrider or similar abilities to effect either fly speed however, in the case of a Monk who doesn't have Incredible movement at the time, due to wearing some form of armor for some reason.

The problem I see is mostly how it makes effects like Longstrider, an easily accessible low level spell, much stronger than I believe they are intended to be.


Aratorin wrote:


Then let me make you aware. For the second time.

CRB 274 wrote:

Speed Penalty

While wearing a suit of armor, you take the penalty listed in this entry to your Speed, as well as to any other movement types you have, such as a climb Speed or swim Speed, to a minimum Speed of 5 feet. If you meet the armor’s Strength threshold (see below), you reduce the penalty by 5 feet.

If you read that as a Speed reduction greater than -10, and you clearly are, I will simply disregard your outlandish and unsupported notion.

There simply is zero value in even entertaining the notion that this rule means -20 anywhere. A penalty is only applied once, full stop.


beowulf99 wrote:
Funny enough, for your ruling number 1, there is actually a single instance in the CRB that requires you to track a "base" speed, though it does say "normal" rather than "base". Feet to Fins. It's actually where I got the nomenclature from.

Again, as a comment: don't use this for a RAW discussion. That is, the RAW cannot and should be inferred from specific examples.

In other words, if your argument requires the GM to read the entirety of the rules (including seemingly unrelated chapters) instead of just the entry (or entries) relevant to the matter of hand, your argument likely is weak.

For the purposes of establishing a RAW, that is. Again, using it as argument why that RAW is unsatisfactory and/or why houserules are necessary, is something else, and entirely fine.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Status bonuses don't stack. You take only the highest one. That's somewhere in the CRB, I don't have a page reference. So your #3 is not going to work. #1 in effect says "make a house rule". That leaves #2. The question here is whether a Status Bonus to Speed affects the Fly Speed. Also, whether changes to the Land Speed while the creature has a (non-natural) Fly Speed affect the Fly Speed. It seems to me that the simplest interpretation is that when you gain a Fly Speed that is based on your Land Speed, the Fly Speed is equal to your Land Speed at the moment you gain the Fly Speed. A later change to your Land Speed does not affect your Fly Speed (unless some rule specifically says it does). Other interpretations are certainly possible, but Occam's Razor suggests going with this one.

Again, keep in mind that the situation is not necessarily as simple as choosing between three choices.

Meaning that just because two of your choices fall away does not necessarily mean the third and remaining one represents the whole truth.


Aratorin wrote:

If you decide to base your Fly speed off of your total Land speed, including the bonus from Longstrider, then your base Fly speed simply is whatever that total adds up to. It doesn't have a status bonus, because Longstrider explicitly doesn't modify Fly speeds. This is why using the modified Land speed as the base is inherently abusable. It bypasses the stacking limits by laundering them through another spell.

This kind of thinking is how 3.5 ended up with PunPun.

"This is why using the modified Land speed as the base is inherently abusable." this makes for a valid argument for a houserule, but is not necessarily a valid argument why it can't be RAW. Who says Paizo thinks using Longstrider to Fly faster is abusive? You do, that's who, but that's a personal opinion, not fact. So houserule it if you don't like it.

What isn't true however is the claim "It bypasses the stacking limits by laundering them through another spell" since nobody has argued that you can stack bonuses or penalties.

Oh, except you. You have argued that (with your double application of the -10 penalty for armor).

Which brings us back to reductio ad absurdum. Please don't argue the rules must be a certain way because of cornercases you yourself have applied.

The proper logic would instead be to go: ...but if we don't let bonuses and penalties stack, even if "laundered", then the simple interpretation of the rules (Longstrider making you Fly faster) appears much less abusive and indeed more straight-forward.


Goldryno wrote:

This is exactly what I'm talking about as far as a rigid ruling. Yes if you are taking things as literal as possible you can have a logically sound argument for it being abusable. Which if you follow the logic wormhole down deep enough could lead you to just preventing the rules from interacting all together.

The alternative is taking an approach that allows the rules to interact and just simply not allowing status bonus that ultimately affects speed to stack with another status bonus.

Exactly. Thank you.


Castilliano wrote:

So for those against Status bonuses to speed being factored into fly speed, what about a Monk's Wind Jump? Does the Monk not gain their Monk speed while flying under their Monk ability?

Your Monk players will need to know because I doubt that Dwarf is thinking he'll be flying at 20'.

ETA: Abundant Step uses the same language. Without the Status bonus, that's hardly abundant.

Since I'm not against Status bonuses to speed being factored in, I'm not going to answer.

I am going to offer a comment, though:

I understand the urge to use Abundant Step as argument why the rules must mean to factor in Status bonuses to speed, so for consistency, I'll simply warn against using specific examples to argue RAW.

(Meaning that if I'm arguing against an example that makes a certain interpretation of RAW less likely, I need to argue against an example that makes it more likely too)

Meaning that the argument "references to speed don't distinguish only certain parts" (which is at the core of this entire thread) needs to stand on its own merit (the rules, as opposed to specific examples, never discuss using only parts of speed), rather than being justified by examples.

Otherwise, the door is opened for other people to choose their own examples to argue the opposite. (Arguments for their interpretation being RAW, that is, not arguments why their interpretation makes a good houserule)

Best regards


beowulf99 wrote:
The problem I see is mostly how it makes effects like Longstrider, an easily accessible low level spell, much stronger than I believe they are intended to be.

I believe you need to open yourself to the possibility that it is like you said: you think Longstrider is much stronger than what you think Paizo intended.

Note: I'm not necessarily arguing Longstrider is fine. I completely understand if this feels wrong in your bones.

Only that we need to interpret rules as intentional, not accidental, if we're going to have a sane RAW discussion.

I see no actual indication Paizo have missed the fact Longstrider makes you Fly Faster under the current rules. Until this is errataed (and I'm not holding my breath), we need to assume their intention matches what they actually wrote.

Liberty's Edge

Squiggit wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
A party member casts some type of polymorph spell on me, changing to a creature type that is no subject to charm person. So now I am no longer charmed?

Yes, actually.

From the rules on targeting:

Quote:
If a creature starts out as a valid target but ceases to be one during a spell’s duration, the spell typically ends, but the GM might decide otherwise in certain situations.

Hmm.. Ok. Thanks! This answers my specific example.

I don't see it applying to the specific case that someone casts Fly on themselves and then casts Longstrider on themselves and then getting a increase to the Fly speed. To me, when the Fly spell is cast, that is when the parameters of the spell are checked and established. I don't see Longstrider being cast after as impacting the Fly Speed.

But I may have missed something. There are a lot of new rules and old rules that sound like something I learned in 1e but work differently in 2e.


Gary Bush wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
A party member casts some type of polymorph spell on me, changing to a creature type that is no subject to charm person. So now I am no longer charmed?

Yes, actually.

From the rules on targeting:

Quote:
If a creature starts out as a valid target but ceases to be one during a spell’s duration, the spell typically ends, but the GM might decide otherwise in certain situations.

Hmm.. Ok. Thanks! This answers my specific example.

I don't see it applying to the specific case that someone casts Fly on themselves and then casts Longstrider on themselves and then getting a increase to the Fly speed. To me, when the Fly spell is cast, that is when the parameters of the spell are checked and established. I don't see Longstrider being cast after as impacting the Fly Speed.

But I may have missed something. There are a lot of new rules and old rules that sound like something I learned in 1e but work differently in 2e.

Then if they cast Longstrider first, Fly does get the boost?

So two identical people with identical spells on them might have a different net effect?
(I too would've liked a check time for the spell, except I don't like this ramification.)


Zapp wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
The problem I see is mostly how it makes effects like Longstrider, an easily accessible low level spell, much stronger than I believe they are intended to be.

I believe you need to open yourself to the possibility that it is like you said: you think Longstrider is much stronger than what you think Paizo intended.

Note: I'm not necessarily arguing Longstrider is fine. I completely understand if this feels wrong in your bones.

Only that we need to interpret rules as intentional, not accidental, if we're going to have a sane RAW discussion.

I see no actual indication Paizo have missed the fact Longstrider makes you Fly Faster under the current rules. Until this is errataed (and I'm not holding my breath), we need to assume their intention matches what they actually wrote.

Yeah. That is what I have been saying since my first post in this thread. I've never said that I interpret the RAW to be my "method", only that I perceive a problematic or imbalanced interaction between the two, with my method for dealing with it as a house rule.

Sczarni

Castilliano wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
A party member casts some type of polymorph spell on me, changing to a creature type that is no subject to charm person. So now I am no longer charmed?

Yes, actually.

From the rules on targeting:

Quote:
If a creature starts out as a valid target but ceases to be one during a spell’s duration, the spell typically ends, but the GM might decide otherwise in certain situations.

Hmm.. Ok. Thanks! This answers my specific example.

I don't see it applying to the specific case that someone casts Fly on themselves and then casts Longstrider on themselves and then getting a increase to the Fly speed. To me, when the Fly spell is cast, that is when the parameters of the spell are checked and established. I don't see Longstrider being cast after as impacting the Fly Speed.

But I may have missed something. There are a lot of new rules and old rules that sound like something I learned in 1e but work differently in 2e.

Then if they cast Longstrider first, Fly does get the boost?

So two identical people with identical spells on them might have a different net effect?
(I too would've liked a check time for the spell, except I don't like this ramification.)

And the answer to that question is indeterminable, as far as I can tell.

I would personally rule them the same, but I can't pull out the Core Rulebook and show that with any assurity.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fly at CRB 339 wrote:
The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.

Fly asks "what's your Speed?" and then gives you that or 20, whichever is higher.

Longstrider at CRB 348 wrote:
You lengthen your stride beyond what should be possible. You gain a +10-foot status bonus to your Speed.

Longstrider gives a +10 status bonus to Speed.

That seems very clear-cut to me. I'm not sure how this went on for three pages.


Puna'chong wrote:
Fly at CRB 339 wrote:
The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.

Fly asks "what's your Speed?" and then gives you that or 20, whichever is higher.

Longstrider at CRB 348 wrote:
You lengthen your stride beyond what should be possible. You gain a +10-foot status bonus to your Speed.

Longstrider gives a +10 status bonus to Speed.

That seems very clear-cut to me. I'm not sure how this went on for three pages.

Eh, mostly a question of balance and RAI over RAW. You know, the usual culprits for ever expanding threads.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
beowulf99 wrote:
Eh, mostly a question of balance and RAI over RAW. You know, the usual culprits for ever expanding threads.

That and there are a number of effects that modify multiple types of speed and it doesn't feel intended that they're meant to double dip with these kids of spells.

I think that's what makes this topic kind of interesting, because I think the RAI feels wrong either way: It doesn't make sense to double dip on speed boosts/penalties and certain effects become a lot stronger if you can stack land speed modifiers and then translate them into fly speed modifiers.

But on the other hand, I think as written it's fairly straight forward and the idea that you're supposed to track modified and unmodified speed separately doesn't feel consistent with the rest of the game either.


Here's a little nugget I came across:

CRB p217 wrote:
Your familiar’s save modifiers and AC are equal to yours before applying circumstance or status bonuses or penalties.

So, there is precedent for derived stats that do not take the bonuses of the originating stat.

Does it mean anything? Probably not. Will it stir up the pot? One can only hope.


Gary Bush wrote:

I don't see it applying to the specific case that someone casts Fly on themselves and then casts Longstrider on themselves and then getting a increase to the Fly speed. To me, when the Fly spell is cast, that is when the parameters of the spell are checked and established. I don't see Longstrider being cast after as impacting the Fly Speed.

But I may have missed something. There are a lot of new rules and old rules that sound like something I learned in 1e but work differently in 2e.

I think the important takeaway here is that you haven't actually missed any rule text.

The fallacy is going "if the rules say Longstrider applies to Fly I have obviously missed that, and I will change my ruling".

The thing that can be hard to swallow is that logic asks you to accept the ruling "Longstrider makes you fly faster" without having any rules passage to point to.

This is because of "assume omissions are intentional not accidental".

It's about where the burden of proof lies. It's only human to go "I believe my ruling is intuitive and correct, and I want evidence to the contrary before I change my mind".

But in this case, the burden of proof lies with those arguing "Longstrider does not change the Fly speed".

The rules will not and should not have to call out specific instances of where the rules apply. Only where there are exceptions.

Since there is no exception being made for the Longstrider-Fly Combo, we should and must assume the general rule applies.

Ergo, that Fly keys off your Speed, that Longstrider increases that speed, and thus that Longstrider makes you fly faster.


Castilliano wrote:

Then if they cast Longstrider first, Fly does get the boost?

So two identical people with identical spells on them might have a different net effect?

I can only heartily recommend you to not go there. Introducing timings is bad for the game, as it opens up a Pandora's Box of absurd ruleslawyering.

Again this is a case of "what the rules never say...":

The rules never say Fly keeps its own "copy" of your Speed, so you don't HAVE to rule Fly is unaffected by subsequent applications of speed change.

In other words, I recommend that you rule that casting Longstrider on a friend that's already Flying increases her Flying speed just as if you cast Longstrider first.

Use The First Rule if you must to justify this, but do it any way you can. Because the alternative is NOT where you want the game to go.

Remember the game NEVER says you have to go there. The game NEVER says that casting Fly before casting Longstrider means you don't fly as fast.


beowulf99 wrote:
Yeah. That is what I have been saying since my first post in this thread. I've never said that I interpret the RAW to be my "method", only that I perceive a problematic or imbalanced interaction between the two, with my method for dealing with it as a house rule.

Yes, sure, okay - but you DO realize the potential for misunderstanding?

I for one have drawn your attention to the fact you can not come across as not very clear on what you believe the RAW *should be* on one hand and what you believe the RAW *is* on the other.

I fully accept you feel you have been sufficiently clear. I just want you to interpret my continued postings regarding you to mean that you could perhaps have been even more clear :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:


And the answer to that question is indeterminable, as far as I can tell.

I would personally rule them the same, but I can't pull out the Core Rulebook and show that with any assurity.

Nefreet is right.

Y'all need to make a judgement call.

The only thing we can do is point out that making one decision leads to a simple straightforward (but perhaps not always intuitive) game and that the other leads to a horrifically convoluted (and definitely sometimes counter-intuitive) one ;)

Dark Archive

I'm not sure why this is still under debate; as Alatorin pointed out on the first page of this thread, Speed as a mechanical term is clearly defined in the core rulebook (page 463). It's also clear that longstrider boosts your flying speed, since it is adds to your (land) Speed and fly says the target gains "a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater". However, you need to cast longstrider before fly, otherwise it will have no effect on your flying speed. That's how it works per RAW.


After reading most of the thread I agree with Zap, Longstrider boosts the Fly spell.

I think whether the Speed of Fly is Static of Dynamic is ambiguous. In my game I'd rule it's dynamic, in that if you cast Longstrider after you cast fly you still get the speed boost to your fly speed..

Liberty's Edge

Asgetrion wrote:
I'm not sure why this is still under debate; as Alatorin pointed out on the first page of this thread, Speed as a mechanical term is clearly defined in the core rulebook (page 463). It's also clear that longstrider boosts your flying speed, since it is adds to your (land) Speed and fly says the target gains "a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater". However, you need to cast longstrider before fly, otherwise it will have no effect on your flying speed. That's how it works per RAW.

I agree, but as you know, there are others that do not.

It would be helpful, I think, if those who agree that Longstrider increases Fly Speed would give an opinion if they feel that is true if Fly was cast first.

I know a few have.

Dark Archive

MongrelHorde wrote:

After reading most of the thread I agree with Zap, Longstrider boosts the Fly spell.

I think whether the Speed of Fly is Static of Dynamic is ambiguous. In my game I'd rule it's dynamic, in that if you cast Longstrider after you cast fly you still get the speed boost to your fly speed..

It's not ambiguous; the spell says the target gains a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater. That happens when you cast the spell, and after it is in effect, only effects that specify they grant bonuses to fly Speed apply. That's how it works.

Having said that, I would not punish a player if their PC cast these in wrong order as a mistake; in such a case I'd let them get the bonus to fly Speed. I also always encourage my players to use spells in creative ways, and prefer saying "Yes" (or "Yes, and/but...") rather than slavishly sticking to the rules.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Asgetrion wrote:
I'm not sure why this is still under debate

Just barging into a thread declaring there's no need to even discuss isn't becoming. Proclaiming your interpretation as the One True RAW is even less diplomatic.

Read the thread. It will explain to you why this is still under debate.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gary Bush wrote:
It would be helpful, I think, if those who agree that Longstrider increases Fly Speed would give an opinion if they feel that is true if Fly was cast first.

Because the other interpretation introduces timing issues to a game that never says any should exist.

The game becomes MASSIVELY more complex if you rule the order of spells matter. It might not be immediately apparent this is the case, so just trust me on this one: don't do it.

You don't HAVE to interpret the game to mean the order of buffs matter, so there is no good reason to do so.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Zapp wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
I'm not sure why this is still under debate

Just barging into a thread declaring there's no need to even discuss isn't becoming. Proclaiming your interpretation as the One True RAW is even less diplomatic.

Read the thread. It will explain to you why this is still under debate.

The hypocrisy of this statement is tangible.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

...and lo the discussion did grind to an unceremonious halt as many afore had wrestled with embattled opponents, dug ever so deeply into their own trench, oft firing a salvo of argumentation across the battlefield with naught to show for it beyond the tapping of keys across the board.

In these endeavoring times of self-isolation, the taste of trepidation on ere tongue, civility, broken - disheveled and mendacious lie discarded, unwanted to the gutter. Loosed have been the throwers of flame upon, temerarious and obdurate, blind to all but their cause.

The time for thoughtful discussion has long since passed and those which remain indebted to their arguments show neither pity for one another... nor themselves, for they injure in kind not only their fellow man but their own humanity with insults and derision.

Top Secret - Do not touch!:
Don't worry, I'm a hypocrite too.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Sounds like someone hasn't run out of toilet paper yet ^_^

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zapp wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
I'm not sure why this is still under debate

Just barging into a thread declaring there's no need to even discuss isn't becoming. Proclaiming your interpretation as the One True RAW is even less diplomatic.

Read the thread. It will explain to you why this is still under debate.

I've read it, and I just don't understand why posters are arguing about a matter that is actually crystal-clear per RAW. It would be another matter without the phrase on page 463 about "generic" use of Speed always referring to land Speed. It tells you how each spell interacts with your land/fly/crawl/burrow/whatever Speed. If a spell says it only affects your fly Speed, you don't gain its bonus to any other Speed; likewise, if it does not specify a type, it's for land Speed only. There are some glitches and contradictory bits in the Core Rulebook, but this is not one of them.

Liberty's Edge

Zapp wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
It would be helpful, I think, if those who agree that Longstrider increases Fly Speed would give an opinion if they feel that is true if Fly was cast first.

Because the other interpretation introduces timing issues to a game that never says any should exist.

The game becomes MASSIVELY more complex if you rule the order of spells matter. It might not be immediately apparent this is the case, so just trust me on this one: don't do it.

You don't HAVE to interpret the game to mean the order of buffs matter, so there is no good reason to do so.

If you have a target, and something effects that target, than there has to be a timing component. Otherwise, how do we ever determine when something happens?

I feel that if Fly is cast first, it would not received the benefit of Speed increase from Longstrider.

CRB page 302, Cast a Spell wrote:
You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire. Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a variable number of actions depending on the spell, as listed in each spell’s stat block. As soon as the spellcasting actions are complete, the spell effect occurs.

{emphasis mine}

The term "spell effect" is not defined as far as I could find.

Case 1
Cast Longstrider. Spell affect: increase Speed. Now Cast Fly. Spell affect: look at my Speed and gain a Fly Speed of the same value.

Case 2
Cast Fly. Spell affect: look at my Speed and gain a Fly Speed of the same value. Now cast Longstrider. Spell affect: increase Speed.

I just don't see how the increase in speed from Longstrider can increase Fly Speed if it is cast after Fly.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gary Bush wrote:


I just don't see how the increase in speed from Longstrider can increase Fly Speed if it is cast after Fly.

Fly ("The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.") can be read as

1. The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed equal to its Speed at the time Fly is cast, or 20 feet, whichever is greater.
2. The target can soar through the air, gaining a fly Speed continually equal to its Speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.

There is a variable component that may become fixed upon casting, or may remain variable for the duration of the spell. For example, a character with a speed of 25, one minute after Fly was cast, would have

1. a fly speed of 25 feet.
2. a fly speed equal to its speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater.

I think both are fair, but I lean towards the latter.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I guess that's another ambiguity here. There are two ways you can read Fly's ability

One is that "Fly speed equal to its speed" is an effect that checks once and applies a flat modifier. If your speed is 50, you get a fly speed of 50 and that's that.

The other is that it literally sets your fly speed to "equal to its speed", so at any given moment, your fly speed is whatever your normal speed is. Under this interpretation, long strider and any other buff or penalty to your fly speed would dynamically change as well.


Consider the spell Tether:

Rules wrote:

You use magical chains, vines, or other tethers to bind your target to you. The creature can still try to Escape, and it or others can break the tethers by attacking them (the tethers have AC 15 and 10 Hit Points). You must stay within 30 feet of the target while it is tethered; moving more than 30 feet away from your target ends the spell. The target must attempt a Reflex save.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.
Success The target takes a –5-foot circumstance penalty to its Speed as long as it is within 30 feet of you.
Failure The target takes a –10-foot circumstance penalty to its Speed and cannot move more than 30 feet away from you until it Escapes or the spell ends.
Critical Failure The target is immobilized until it Escapes or the spell ends.

Would Tether affect the fly speed of a creature if it were under effect of the Fly spell had a normal success or normal failure? I think it would, indicating that fly speed from the Fly spell is dynamically linked to current speed.


My thought process is inferring timing here is likely to make things weird (to Zap's previously raised point) for more than just this one scenario. However, I think there are going to be weird cases for either ruling, but there will be less weird scenarios for ruling Fly as "dynamic" in that it's speed changes with your (land) speed.

When timing is important, Paizo has very clearly outlined the timing.

Examples:
When do you get your reaction back? At the beginning of your turn.
When does Persistent Damage apply? At the end of your turn.
When do you roll for Persistent damage to fall off? At the end of your turn after persistent damage.
When does X condition fall off? Explained in the specific condition.
When do you get the extra action from Quickened? ONLY at the beginning of your turn.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

So I should cast Fleet Step (+30 Status, 1 minute) before casting my heightened 1 hour Fly spell.
Or doesn't that seem wrong to y'all too?

Yeah, I don't think the "check at moment of casting" works.
It think as your Speed changes, so does your fly Speed based on that.
(Or ignore Status bonuses, but the corner cases there convince me otherwise.)


Gary Bush wrote:
I just don't see how the increase in speed from Longstrider can increase Fly Speed if it is cast after Fly.

If you think about it, the alternative means a very convoluted game, creating a lot of questions that simply have no answers.

Again:

You don't have to interpret the rules this way, so why would you?

The bitter truth is, and I'm repeating myself here, that Paizo did not use sufficiently precise language to deterministically resolve these interactions. Human interpretation is required.

Now, the game becomes much simpler if you don't rule that each spell holds its own instance of variables, to speak programmer. So I recommend it :)


MongrelHorde wrote:
However, I think there are going to be weird cases for either ruling, but there will be less weird scenarios for ruling Fly as "dynamic" in that it's speed changes with your (land) speed.

Something like that, yeah


Castilliano wrote:

So I should cast Fleet Step (+30 Status, 1 minute) before casting my heightened 1 hour Fly spell.

Or doesn't that seem wrong to y'all too?

Yeah, I don't think the "check at moment of casting" works.
It think as your Speed changes, so does your fly Speed based on that.
(Or ignore Status bonuses, but the corner cases there convince me otherwise.)

A good example why the idea Longstrider can't affect Fly falls apart in practice.

Thank you.

However, let me reiterate that there's far too many examples flying around at the moment. Don't base RAW rulings on circumstantial evidence.

Better to rule that the RAW is sufficiently imprecise that a ruling is needed. There is no strong indicator (in the rules language) that there should be more than a single instance of a speed, so don't invent one.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Zapp wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

So I should cast Fleet Step (+30 Status, 1 minute) before casting my heightened 1 hour Fly spell.

Or doesn't that seem wrong to y'all too?

Yeah, I don't think the "check at moment of casting" works.
It think as your Speed changes, so does your fly Speed based on that.
(Or ignore Status bonuses, but the corner cases there convince me otherwise.)

A good example why the idea Longstrider can't affect Fly falls apart in practice.

Thank you.

However, let me reiterate that there's far too many examples flying around at the moment. Don't base RAW rulings on circumstantial evidence.

Better to rule that the RAW is sufficiently imprecise that a ruling is needed. There is no strong indicator (in the rules language) that there should be more than a single instance of a speed, so don't invent one.

All non-eyewitness evidence is circumstantial. In courts (according to my mother, a prosecutor) and in science (as per its methodology), circumstantial evidence is preferred, i.e. DNA tests, fingerprints, double-blind tests, etc.

So I think I'll keep using such evidence.

And "far too many examples"?
Sorry, more data (if accurate) is a good thing.
Now I distrust you.

Thanks for your opinion, even if stated as advice.
I'd rather have examples. And so far, the examples point me toward accepting that Fly Speed should be based on (land) Speed, even if Status or temporary bonuses are involved, yet not when said bonuses expire.
Simple enough, doesn't contradict a rule, and easy to communicate with my players.

Liberty's Edge

Zapp wrote:
You don't have to interpret the rules this way, so why would you?

I play Organized Play exclusively. As a GM, I have latitude to interpret the rules but only to a certain point.

I would like a consistent ruling so all the table I run or play on are consistent.

How do you read the term "spell effect"?

CRB page 302, Cast a Spell wrote:
You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire. Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a variable number of actions depending on the spell, as listed in each spell’s stat block. As soon as the spellcasting actions are complete, the spell effect occurs.

{emphasis mine}

Liberty's Edge

Sapient wrote:

Consider the spell Tether:

Rules wrote:

You use magical chains, vines, or other tethers to bind your target to you. The creature can still try to Escape, and it or others can break the tethers by attacking them (the tethers have AC 15 and 10 Hit Points). You must stay within 30 feet of the target while it is tethered; moving more than 30 feet away from your target ends the spell. The target must attempt a Reflex save.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.
Success The target takes a –5-foot circumstance penalty to its Speed as long as it is within 30 feet of you.
Failure The target takes a –10-foot circumstance penalty to its Speed and cannot move more than 30 feet away from you until it Escapes or the spell ends.
Critical Failure The target is immobilized until it Escapes or the spell ends.

Would Tether affect the fly speed of a creature if it were under effect of the Fly spell had a normal success or normal failure? I think it would, indicating that fly speed from the Fly spell is dynamically linked to current speed.

With the Fly Speed being set at the time that the spell is cast and using the Speed of the target at the time of casting, I would rule that there is no impact to a creature's fly speed as it does on the creature's Speed.

Remember, Speed (with a capital 'S') is defined in the rules.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zapp wrote:
Better to rule that the RAW is sufficiently imprecise that a ruling is needed. There is no strong indicator (in the rules language) that there should be more than a single instance of a speed, so don't invent one.

Agree 100%! If only we had a FAQ button to click!!!!

To the devs reading this (Mark!?!?!?), at least let us know you are looking into this and will address it!

Liberty's Edge

Castilliano wrote:

So I should cast Fleet Step (+30 Status, 1 minute) before casting my heightened 1 hour Fly spell.

Or doesn't that seem wrong to y'all too?

Yeah, I don't think the "check at moment of casting" works.
It think as your Speed changes, so does your fly Speed based on that.
(Or ignore Status bonuses, but the corner cases there convince me otherwise.)

I would say No it is not wrong and believe Fly would get the boost for an hour.

Dark Archive

While I agree that spells such as fly should have granted a fixed value for whatever Speed they grant, and it would have made everything work smoother in regard to how different buffs and debuffs affect your Speeds, I don't think any of us disagree how these things work by RAW. Tether cannot reduce the speed of flying creatures because the failed save only affects land Speed. Also, unless you're about to take a swing at them in melee, you try to stay beyond the range of spellcasters, rendering that spell less effective anyway.

Having said that, I suspect the designers had different ideas on how they would work (RAI) when they wrote those aforementioned spells. IMO it's quite obvious, based on the descriptions and the names of these spells, that tether, fleet and longstrider were all supposed on affect only your land Speed. Or, at least, they didn't consider flying when they wrote those spells.

I also get the point about "dynamic" speed; I agree that it'd make sense that spells can affect your current flying Speed. I just haven't seen any that could, per RAW, for the reasons outlined in many other posts. Whether this was intentional or an oversight due to many changes to Speed during and after the playtest process, I cannot say. It may also be that the design team thought their definition of Speed in the Core Rulebook is so strongly worded that it cannot be misintepreted, but this works only as long as those who design spells keep in mind that they must mention all forms of Speed affected by each spell.

101 to 150 of 159 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Longstrider and Fly All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.