So I want to play a Red Mantis assassin, took the background for it, made a level 1 goblin rogue then realised that at level 2 i would not be able to take the archetype dedication feat for red mantis assassin because it requires I be trained in saw tooth Sabres which as a rogue I'm not.
Option 1 So very annoying, would have to wait till my general feat at third to pick this up then take it at level 4 instead.
Option 2 which I need clarity on, would this work and is this allowed? I take a level of fighter at 2nd giving me the trained I need in sawtooth sabres and then use the fighter class feat to take the archetype at level 2. Am I allowed to take the feat if I meet the prerequisite from leveling, do I gain trained then take the feat or do I need to have the trained in sawtooth sabre before the level I take the archetype feat?
As Malk brought up, that isn't how multiclassing works, instead each class has a dedication feat, just like your Red Mantis Assassin archetype, taking it gives you specific benefits as outlined in the dedication feat, and the feats the dedication feat is a requirement for.
In other words, yeah, its hard to take at level 2 and you'll have to use your general feat twice, not just once- rogues are only trained in "All Simple Weapons" and not "All Martial Weapons" as written, you'll need to take the feat once to get trained in "All Martial Weapons" and then again to receive training in "One Advanced Weapon"
So Red Mantis Assassin would come online for you at level... 8, because your second General Feat is at 7, and the following class feat is at 8.
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Taking Fighter Dedication at level 2 would get you Trained in all Martial Weapons, which means you could take Weapon Proficiency at level 3 to become trained in Sawtooth Saber and allow you to qualify for Red Mantis Dedication at Level 4.
Unfortunately, there is a major 'but' coming here:
Archetype, Dedication, Multiclass
Source Core Rulebook pg. 226
Archetype Fighter
Prerequisites Strength 14, Dexterity 14
You become trained in simple weapons and martial weapons. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics; if you are already trained in both of these skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You become trained in fighter class DC.Special You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the fighter archetype.
So, you'd need to take Fighter Archetype feats at levels 4 and 6, meaning the earliest you could become a Red Mantis would actually be level 8 (which,as noted by an earlier poster, is also when you could gain access by taking Weapon Proficiency at levels 3 (to get all Martial Weapons) and 7 (to get the saber)).
From what I can see, the 'fastest' builds to actually take Red Mantis Dedication would be:
- A Fighter can take it at level 2
- A Human taking a class proficient in all martial weapons could also take it at level 2 (Taking the General Training feat at level 1 to gain saber proficiency)
- A Human taking a class proficient in all simple weapons could take it at level 4 (Taking the General Training feat at level 1 to gain Martial proficiency, and then Weapon Proficiency again at level 3 for the saber itself)
- A non-Human taking a class proficient in all martial weapons could take it at level 4 (Taking Weapon Proficiency at level 3 for the saber itself)
- A Halfling taking a class proficient with all simple weapons could take it at level 6 (Taking Weapon Proficiency(Martial) at level 3 and then Cultural Adaptability (Human) / General Training / Weapon Proficiency(Sawtooth Saber) at level 5)
EDIT: Added a couple of options.
Thank you for the concise answers, I was unaware you couldn't just multiclass like previous editions and that too was a dedication feat. I will have to rebuild my character to get it at level 2.
wow...that really sucks, the red mantis assassin archetype which doesnt give that much in terms of assassination only coming online in midgame for many player assassins
I have the rough feeling something about this should be erratad
Not that it makes a huge difference, but a Human of any class that is trained in all Martial Weapons can also take it at 2 by taking Unconventional Weaponry in Sawtooth Sabres at 1, as they are common in another culture, that being Mediogalti Island.
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder lore, so I could be wrong, but every image and bit of lore I can find for Red Mantis Assassins shows them as Humans or Half-Elves, so it is possible that these tight restrictions are intentional.
I personally would like to play one, but I don't think any of the dedications in the World Guide are worth it until they have been expanded upon, as the ones in the Character Guide have been.
With the exception of Living Monolith, but that's just because a Half Dwarf-Orc, or a Dworc if you will, Monk Living Monolith is virtually unkillable. :)
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Let's also not forget the obvious: a cleric/champion of Achaekek can take it at level 2 because favored weapon.
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder lore, so I could be wrong, but every image and bit of lore I can find for Red Mantis Assassins shows them as Humans or Half-Elves, so it is possible that these tight restrictions are intentional.
Eh...yes and no. Yes, a lot of the art likely depicts the Red Mantis as being primarily of that ancestry (haven't thoroughly checked through the art because there isn't a lot of it and a chunk of the time the Red Mantis are masked anyways), the church of Achaekek (and by extent the Red Mantis Assassins) is actually quite nondiscriminatory—one of Achaekek’s anathemas is actually “become fixated on petty matters such as others’ gender or ancestry,” and a good example of that is in the Adventurer’s Guide: yeah, the big kahuna of the Red Mantis (Blood Mistress Jakalyn) is human, but the mayor of Ilizagorti is a doppleganger monk Red Mantis Assassin, and the spiritual leader of the Red Mantis (High Priest Saviya) is actually a full-blooded elf.
Anyway, random spouting of Red Mantis stuff done. (Sorry, I really like the Red Mantis.)
From what I can see, the 'fastest' builds to actually take Red Mantis Dedication would be:
- A Fighter can take it at level 2
- A Human taking a class proficient in all martial weapons could also take it at level 2 (Taking the General Training feat at level 1 to gain saber proficiency)
- A Human taking a class proficient in all simple weapons could take it at level 4 (Taking the General Training feat at level 1 to gain Martial proficiency, and then Weapon Proficiency again at level 3 for the saber itself)
I understand that a Human Rogue can choose Versatile Heritage for a General Feat to take Weapon Proficiency and then get General Training as an Ancestry Feat to get Weapon Proficiency again.
Doing this seems the easiest way to get Red Mantis Assassin at Level 2 as a Rogue.
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From what I can see, the 'fastest' builds to actually take Red Mantis Dedication would be:
- A Fighter can take it at level 2
- A Human taking a class proficient in all martial weapons could also take it at level 2 (Taking the General Training feat at level 1 to gain saber proficiency)
- A Human taking a class proficient in all simple weapons could take it at level 4 (Taking the General Training feat at level 1 to gain Martial proficiency, and then Weapon Proficiency again at level 3 for the saber itself)
I understand that a Human Rogue can choose Versatile Heritage for a General Feat to take Weapon Proficiency and then get General Training as an Ancestry Feat to get Weapon Proficiency again.
Doing this seems the easiest way to get Red Mantis Assassin at Level 2 as a Rogue.
Oh, you are correct: I missed that option.
Let's also not forget the obvious: a cleric/champion of Achaekek can take it at level 2 because favored weapon.
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder lore, so I could be wrong, but every image and bit of lore I can find for Red Mantis Assassins shows them as Humans or Half-Elves, so it is possible that these tight restrictions are intentional.Eh...yes and no. Yes, a lot of the art likely depicts the Red Mantis as being primarily of that ancestry (haven't thoroughly checked through the art because there isn't a lot of it and a chunk of the time the Red Mantis are masked anyways), the church of Achaekek (and by extent the Red Mantis Assassins) is actually quite nondiscriminatory—one of Achaekek’s anathemas is actually “become fixated on petty matters such as others’ gender or ancestry,” and a good example of that is in the Adventurer’s Guide: yeah, the big kahuna of the Red Mantis (Blood Mistress Jakalyn) is human, but the mayor of Ilizagorti is a doppleganger monk Red Mantis Assassin, and the spiritual leader of the Red Mantis (High Priest Saviya) is actually a full-blooded elf.
Anyway, random spouting of Red Mantis stuff done. (Sorry, I really like the Red Mantis.)
Well that's good to know. Still, my concept for a blood red Leaf Leshy Flurry Ranger Mantis Assassin will have to wait until they flesh out the dedication some. The current benefits simply aren't worth the amount of investment required with the current iteration.
Let's also not forget the obvious: a cleric/champion of Achaekek can take it at level 2 because favored weapon.
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder lore, so I could be wrong, but every image and bit of lore I can find for Red Mantis Assassins shows them as Humans or Half-Elves, so it is possible that these tight restrictions are intentional.Eh...yes and no. Yes, a lot of the art likely depicts the Red Mantis as being primarily of that ancestry (haven't thoroughly checked through the art because there isn't a lot of it and a chunk of the time the Red Mantis are masked anyways), the church of Achaekek (and by extent the Red Mantis Assassins) is actually quite nondiscriminatory—one of Achaekek’s anathemas is actually “become fixated on petty matters such as others’ gender or ancestry,” and a good example of that is in the Adventurer’s Guide: yeah, the big kahuna of the Red Mantis (Blood Mistress Jakalyn) is human, but the mayor of Ilizagorti is a doppleganger monk Red Mantis Assassin, and the spiritual leader of the Red Mantis (High Priest Saviya) is actually a full-blooded elf.
Anyway, random spouting of Red Mantis stuff done. (Sorry, I really like the Red Mantis.)
Champions only get access to the weapon, they are not granted proficiency with said weapon. Which is an oversight IMO. Makes no sense to get access to a weapon with which you aren't (but should be) proficient with.