What does "immobilized" mean? What is the trigger for someone to be classified as immobile? Is it just not being able to move from their current space, or is it not being able to carry out any action, effectively helpless?
Does someone entangled in a net tied to a immovable rod count as being immobilised?
Does being pinned count as immobilised?
There's a few instances where the word is used but in most cases its not clear what it actually means. Halt Undead is an exception because it clearly tells you that they are immobilised as per Hold Person, and this is because Undead are normally immune to the paralyze condition. Snake Sepia Sigil is another where immobilised is referred to but again it explains that they are in stasis. Tatzlwyrm Rake uses it in the fluff text when talking about grappling.
The only reference I can find as a rule is from the 3.5 Rules Compendium (which I know is not the same as PF), which defines it as so:
Immobilized: An immobilized creature can’t move out of the space it was in when it became immobilized. It otherwise functions normally unless it’s flying. Immobilized flying creatures that have the ability to hover can maintain their initial altitude. All other flying creatures subjected to this condition descend at a rate of 20 feet per round until they reach the ground, taking no falling damage.
Immobilized isn't an official condition in PF, so it's more of a descriptor than anything. There are some spells/abilities that say they immobilize a target but for mechanical purposes, they're pinned, helpless, or entangled, w/e, and it should say that in the spell/ability's description.
It means nothing in pathfinder. You would need to show the specific case where it's used to be able to determine the effects of what happens with the relevant ability/feat/spell.
For instance, it has no bearing on what Tatzlwyrm Rake does since it's in the fluff text.
willuwontu wrote: It means nothing in pathfinder. You would need to show the specific case where it's used to be able to determine the effects of what happens with the relevant ability/feat/spell. So what does it mean in context of Uncanny Dodge? When does one count as being immobilised so they lose their uncanny dodge? If its simply that they are unable to take any form of action, they would have used the wording "Helpless" instead, which is a condition gained by anyone tied up, paralysed, or otherwise unable to act (i.e. Dex = 0)
This affects other rules as well:
Shooting into melee specifically calls out about attacking immobilised characters.
Performing combat maneveurs against immobilised characters automatically succeed.
They are referred to under the Aiming a Spell section, where it states: Quote: Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. That indicates that being immobile is not the same as being helpless. It also implies that anyone grappling counts as immobile, which means that anyone grappling cannot benefit from Uncanny Dodge.
Wolfiej wrote: willuwontu wrote: It means nothing in pathfinder. You would need to show the specific case where it's used to be able to determine the effects of what happens with the relevant ability/feat/spell. So what does it mean in context of Uncanny Dodge? When does one count as being immobilised so they lose their uncanny dodge? If its simply that they are unable to take any form of action, they would have used the wording "Helpless" instead, which is a condition gained by anyone tied up, paralysed, or otherwise unable to act (i.e. Dex = 0)
This affects other rules as well:
Shooting into melee specifically calls out about attacking immobilised characters.
Performing combat maneveurs against immobilised characters automatically succeed.
They are referred to under the Aiming a Spell section, where it states: Quote: Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. That indicates that being immobile is not the same as being helpless. It also implies that anyone grappling counts as immobile, which means that anyone grappling cannot benefit from Uncanny Dodge. Immobilized isn't actually defined. And I don't think this ever got FAQ'ed properly either. I looked but couldn't find anything definitive. This FAQ doesn't answer your question outright, but it does talk about immobilize and how it works with reflex saves. In this FAQ, it says when you're immobilized, your Dexterity is essentially 0, so a -5 penalty when making a Reflex save.
Since Immobilized isn't actually defined and there's no other FAQ or Errata to go off of, I'd say w/e you're at 0 dex = immobilized, so that can be paralyzed, helpless, dying, bound, or otherwise completely incapable of moving.
Hope this helps.
Meh, I didn't link that FAQ right. Click this FAQ instead
Ryze Kuja wrote: Meh, I didn't link that FAQ right. Click this FAQ instead Thanks for finding that! It's annoying that its not more clear on what being immobilised actually is.
The only issue I have with that is that it doesn't quite tie up cleanly with the rules. Particularly if a character is stunned, that surely must be an immobilised state as well, but that doesn't set the dex to 0, merely denies the dex modifier. The same with pinned, which actually has a precedent in the CRB with the Iron Bands of Binding (CRB p521) which says that they are immobile (as if pinned):
Quote: A single Large or smaller creature can be captured thus and held immobile (as if pinned) until the command word is spoken to bring the bands into spherical form again. The only thing that the conditions that I referenced from Aiming a Spell (cowering, grappling, helpless, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned), have in common is that they all set the movement to 0. So are these the conditions that are effectively immobilising characters? They do all make sense. I.e. if you're grappled, you are being held in place so how can you dodge? It also makes sense in terms of the dictionary definition of the word, which is:
Quote: to something or someone from being able to move or operate However, I can see that this potentially has wider rules complications because it means if we allow grappled to mean immobilised in this context, any other character performing a combat maneveur automatically succeeds (page 199 of CRB).
Quote: If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). However, the next line then implies that being stunned does not quite line up with being immobilised:
Quote: If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it. It's super confusing. I'm so glad in 2E they made it an official condition.
Those last two quotes seem to say that immobilized does not refer to simply being stuck in your square, but bring completely unable to move bodily. It's an in-world descriptor, not a game term. If your jacket catches on branch, you might be stuck for a moment, but you aren't immobile. If you are bound hand-and-foot with zip ties or paralyzed by a drug/injury, then you're immobile.
Quixote wrote: If your jacket catches on branch, you might be stuck for a moment, but you aren't immobile. If you are bound hand-and-foot with zip ties or paralyzed by a drug/injury, then you're immobile. Then why bother calling it immobilized when they can just say “helpless” which is an actual condition. Also monks AC bonus specifically calls out “helpless” OR “immobilized”.
I always understood Immobilized as "unable to leave your square", or having Movement reduced to 0.
I like that branch example. You're not helpless or stunned, you're immobilized until you are no longer stuck on a branch (which seems as simple as taking move action to untangle)
Lady Asharah wrote: I always understood Immobilized as "unable to leave your square", or having Movement reduced to 0.
I like that branch example. You're not helpless or stunned, you're immobilized until you are no longer stuck on a branch (which seems as simple as taking move action to untangle)
So this leads to an interesting point. If we say that immobilised is caused when your movement is reduced to 0, this has potential consequences. Some examples are:
When a monk grapples (or is grappled) then the are immobilised, and lose their AC bonus.
When someone is grappled, and someone then attacks them with another combat maneveur, such as disarm or trip, it automatically succeeds.
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I searched through the entire Core Rulebook PDF and these are my findings (sorry for repeating a lot of stuff):
Dex 0 turns you immobilized. (Ability scores: The abilities: Dexterity)
Immobilized is different from flat-footed. (Uncanny dodge, no matter the class or prestige class)
Immobilized is different from helpless or slowed down. (Monk AC bonus)
Being unconscious turns you immobilized. (Shooting or Throwing into a Melee)
Together, immobile and helpless cover bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned and stunned. (Aiming a Spell)
Halt Undead immobilizes undead, effectively paralyzing them. (Halt Undead, Hold Person)
Iron Bands of Binding turn you immobilized, as if pinned. (Wondrous Items)
Paralysis turns you immobilized. (Special abilities: Paralysis)
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Hence paralyzed and pinned are obvious cases of immobilized. Cowering, grappling and stunned targets are not helpless, so according to the Aiming a Spell text they are "just" immobilized.
So "stuck in your square" / "unable to leave your square" seems to cut it. You could add "on your own", because someone else could move a petrified person - or you could drop from the sky.
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SheepishEidolon wrote: I searched through the entire Core Rulebook PDF and these are my findings (sorry for repeating a lot of stuff): No problem. I’m glad someone double checked what I’ve looked at and confirming what I’ve seen.
Quote: So "stuck in your square" / "unable to leave your square" seems to cut it. You could add "on your own", because someone else could move a petrified person - or you could drop from the sky. Sounds good.
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