I have a few questions about the caustoject, caustolance and the Biohacker.
So, first, the descriptions :
Caustoject:
Much of the design of this pistol-like weapon is based off the biological systems of the disintegration lash class of small arms, though a caustoject’s more traditional appearance is in stark contrast to its techno-organic inspiration. Caustojects create an injectable field that transforms ordinary matter into an acidic compound, disintegrating their targets from the inside. Syringes can be loaded into these weapons, allowing other materials to be quickly injected instead of an acidic discharge (in which case only the injection effect occurs—no acid damage is dealt).
Caustolance:
Drawing upon the same design and inspirations as the caustoject, this larger weapon is designed to resemble an assault rifle rather than a pistol. As with its smaller cousin, a caustolance uses its battery to generate an acidic field to inject directly into its targets, but it can also handle and discharge other substances that are poured into a special tank that is attached to the weapon’s barrel.
Medication Mastery:
You can quickly turn the compounds and catalysts in your custom microlab into medicinals. You can create an analgesic, an antitoxin, or a sedative with an item level no higher than your biohacker level. If you are an instinctive biohacker, you can also make excitants and stimulants. If you are a studious biohacker, you can also make antiemetics and coagulants. These medicinals are highly unstable and cannot be stored for later use or used by anyone else. You can add one of these medicinals to any attack you make with an injection weapon as part of the action to make the attack or attacks, but you can’t add a biohack of any kind to the same attack. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your key ability score, and you regain all expended uses of this ability (up to your maximum) when you take a 10-minute rest to recover Stamina Points.
Here's my questions :
1. Do the caustolance do damage when injecting something? The text seems to indicate that it works as the caustoject, but I'm not sure about that.
2. Can I inject a poison and a biohack at the same time with an injection weapon? The text of the Biohack class feature says "any attack" so I supose it works? (I ask this question because I think it's relevant to the next question)
3. Do the caustolance and caustoject do damage when injecting a biohack without injecting something else? Personally, I would say yes if the answer of #2 is yes since it would means that the biohack doesn't count as something using the injection property of the weapon, thus not disabling the damage.
4. Same as #2, but with medicinals made with the Medication Mastery theorem.
5. Same as #3, but with medicinals made with the Medication Mastery theorem.
6. Can I use the Medication Mastery theorem with an attack that use a medicinal not made with the theorem? The idea is to use two medicinals at the same time.
7. Why Spark Of Ingenuity can't be used with biohack given by Fields of Study?
8. Can I load multiple substances in the caustoject in advance?
9. Same as #8, but with the others injections weapons in general.
10. Do the conserving weapon fusion prevent the waste of a biohack when missing a range attack?
11. The glove needler is a small arms that has a range of "reach ft". Do I make range attack rolls with it? Does it provoke attacks of opportunity?
12. What happens if I try to use a biohack with a blast attack as the one given by the blasting weapon fusion?
13. Same as #12, but with poisons, drugs, medicinals, serums, etc.
14. Can I stack the effect of a basic inhibitor and the effect of a unique inhibitor given by a field of study? Personally, I would say yes since it is only stated that the basic inhibitor can't stack with itself and that the minor inhibitor can't stack with the basic inhibitor, but I want to be sure...
15. Is there any way to make the poisons less expensive?
16. Can I use poisons with explosive ammo?
I think it's all the questions I have so far.
Thank in advance for your replies.
1. I’d say the intent was for the Caustolance to function the same as the caustoject, but since it didn’t make it into the text, ask your GM.
2. I’d say no, I don’t believe you can inject multiple things with a single attack.
3. Seems to me that biohacks are being injected, by using the injection special property, so much like my answer for #2, I don’t think you can inject multiple different things at once.
4. Part of medication mastery, which you helpfully posted above, says “You can add one of these medicinals to any attack you make with an injection weapon as part of the action to make the attack or attacks, but you can’t add a biohack of any kind to the same attack.”
5. Same as above.
6. I don’t believe so, no.
7. Because it doesn’t say it can.
8. I don’t believe so.
9. I don’t believe so.
10. I think this has come up before. You’ll want to ask your GM. I don’t think it uses up the biohack, because of the words “as though the weapon had never been fired”
11. Read the weapon special properties. Specifically “Punch Gun.”
12. No idea. Based on Starfinder’s usual rules, the biohack would effect one target in the cone, likely the closest target to you.
13. Same as 12.
14. Seems like yes.
15. Not that I know of.
16. As long as the weapon you use to deliver the poison has a class of explosive ammo for it, seems like yes.
Hum...
4. I just realized this is confusing. I was asking if it is possible to use a medicals made with the Medication Mastery theorem and a poison at the same time.
5. See #4.
8. and 9.
I was asking these because the description of the darts seems to indicate that it's the darts that hold the substances. It would be weird to be unable to preload multiple darts loaded with poison/serum/etc. The description of Injection Expert seems to go the same way, but the description of the injection property seems to say otherwise. Also, the caustoject's description says it use syringes to inject the target, but the caustolance's description says it use a special tank. This is so confusing. Here's some descriptions related to these questions :
Darts:
These light metal shafts each have a pointed tip and a reservoir to hold toxins or other appropriate substances that are typically liquid or viscous. While most combatants rely on darts to deliver toxins to enemies, particularly desperate or overworked field medics sometimes employ darts to conveniently deliver antitoxins, healing serums, and other beneficial drugs across a crowded battlefield. In these cases, medics often practice to improve their aim to ensure that this strategy is effective when employed.
Injection Expert:
You are proficient with weapons with the injection weapon special property, as long as the weapon has not gained that weapon special property through a weapon fusion, spell, class feature, or similar ability or effect. At 2nd level, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with these weapons. At 9th level, that bonus increases to +2, and at 18th level it increases to +3.
When you hit an ally with such a weapon, you can avoid dealing damage to that ally, while still affecting the ally with the biohack booster or inhibitor, drug, medicinal compound, poison, serum, or other substance that was loaded into the injection weapon. When you fire a weapon with the injection special property and you have multiple types of ammunition loaded into the weapon, you choose which type of ammunition you fire when you attempt the attack.
Injection:
This weapon or its ammunition can be filled with a drug, an injury poison, or a medicinal compound. On a successful attack with the weapon (either the first attack if it’s a melee weapon or an attack with the relevant piece of ammunition if it’s a ranged weapon), the weapon automatically injects the target with the substance. Refilling the weapon with a new substance acts as reloading it and is a move action. Each different injectable material must be bought separately and can be used in any weapon with the injection special property. See page 231 for rules and prices for drugs, medicinals, and poisons.
Thank you for your answer.
To Paizo : Please fix all the confusion around the injections weapons and the Biohacker...
Here's my questions :
1.
Yeah I believe they do damage just fine. While it mentions the small arm version. It does not cite the rest-and in fact it would take less space to cite it. and its a more advanced version of it, with
"more space. It reads to me that it injects and damages just fine
"but it can also handle and discharge other substances that are poured into a special tank that is attached to the weapon’s barrel." This line alone tells me that it should work fine. Unlike the small arms it works better.
2.
With teh causto weapons? I'm not sure. (the long arm I assume yes).
With normal injection weapons? Yeah, Biohack can be added to any attack. Even if its filled with poison or medicinals. With one exception Medicine Mastery. that calls it out as not working.
3: Yeah this is fine. The biohack is free to add to any injection weapon. Both Casuto weapons are injections. Always. So you add it as you like. Its a special trick of Biohacking to add to anything with the property. even if its filled (medicine mastery exception)
6. Pretty sure no,
10. Kind of up to Gm it isn' clear.
11. Needler glove is a melee attack. A Needle Punch Gun is a range attack. two weapons.
14.Pretty sure they both work as biohacks. And biohacks state only one at a time work (Baring the class skill)
16. Explosion just changes the damage type. So no reason I know of it wouldn't
Also, the caustoject's description says it use syringes to inject the target, but the caustolance's description says it use a special tank. This is so confusing. .
This one isn't to confusing.
Caustojets fire their acid via the fields generated by the proprety--using the fiels to create injectable acid. But. you can also load it with an injection dart to fire a different substance. i.e. pretty sure you have to load the dart first.as it doesn't state it has a ammo amount for darts
Caustolances can do the same as above. However, it can also store stuff in the tank. In which case, it would add that stuff to the organic material that it uses to make the acid (apparently retaining the proprety). So the stuff in the tank gets added to the injection field (acid shot). But you can still load it with a dart if you so wish (Because it works the same as the small arms-with the exceeption of what it states differently. I.e. the tank full of stuff that can be injected with the normal field/shots. )
14.Pretty sure they both work as biohacks. And biohacks state only one at a time work (Baring the class skill)
Let me disagree with this.
Biohacks:
[...]Biohacks come in two varieties: boosters and inhibitors. At 1st level, you know the basic boosters and inhibitors listed below, the minor boosters and inhibitors that follow, and the unique booster and inhibitor granted by your primary field of study. As you increase in level, you can also devise theorems to learn special biohacks, in addition to gaining biohacks from a secondary and a tertiary field of study. Additionally, most fields of study eventually provide you with breakthroughs: special biohacks described in their entries.
This description seems to indicate that the basic/minor inhibitors and the unique inhibitors are two types of inhibitors.
And the basic inhibitor's description says :
Basic inhibitor:
A creature can be affected by only one of your basic inhibitors at a time, though it could be under the effects of multiple basic inhibitors originating from multiple biohackers. If you affect a creature with a different basic inhibitor while a previous inhibitor is still in effect, the effects of the previous inhibitor end.
Also, I find no limitation about the boosters.
You might wonder why I asked the question if I know the answer.
Well, it's because I think that the biohacker and some of the injections weapons aren't well written and it's hard to understand what is the RAI and even sometimes it's hard to understand the RAW. I always wonder if I have missed something.
Also, I find it odd that Paizo moved from the ez to understand/remember "counteragents don't stack, restoratives do" to the "basic/minor inhibitors don't stack, but uniques inhibitors do and boosters do". I also wonder if it was the intention to make the studious biohacker's Spark Of Ingenuity incompatible with the uniques inhibitors.
Zwordsman wrote:
Charlesfire wrote:
Also, the caustoject's description says it use syringes to inject the target, but the caustolance's description says it use a special tank. This is so confusing. .
This one isn't to confusing.
Caustojets fire their acid via the fields generated by the proprety--using the fiels to create injectable acid. But. you can also load it with an injection dart to fire a different substance. i.e. pretty sure you have to load the dart first.as it doesn't state it has a ammo amount for darts
Caustolances can do the same as above. However, it can also store stuff in the tank. In which case, it would add that stuff to the organic material that it uses to make the acid (apparently retaining the proprety). So the stuff in the tank gets added to the injection field (acid shot). But you can still load it with a dart if you so wish (Because it works the same as the small arms-with the exceeption of what it states differently. I.e. the tank full of stuff that can be injected with the normal field/shots. )
I like this interpretation. I will take that as the RAW interpretation. But I still think the RAI should be "deals no damage when injecting something". I will probably move away from them with my biohacker tho. It annoys me to not be sure about the RAI and I can live without the causto[lance|jets].
Huh I could see that. I can't find the line that used to be in Biohacks about 1 iteration at a time. So I've probably been remembering that frorm the playtest.
So i guess you can technically Minor-Basic-FoS inhibitor one person over 3 attacks. Meaning With the right fields, you could make a lot of penalties with a basic -2ac. -1 to hit and Sickened condition over the course of a few rounds. (or attacks if you're feeling confident-though the second attack with a minor is almost cost free)
Interestingly that does make picking up that Double Tap feat a little more appealing I guess though. (because you can use it with Minor hacks fairly easily-without interfering with the Basic inhib). ARguablly as its one attack you could apply biohack just fine. But I've seen a few folks declare thhe ammo has to e "exactly the same" meaning the payloads.
Also makes an amusing thought for powering up one person multiple times.
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The causto series doesnt' seem very confusing to me, Since they use very specifcally different wording and clauses. The small arms I think aren't worth much to me--given that loading the dart would require loading the weapon action. The long arm is considerably nicer allowing loadding up the acid injection field itself-combined with a biohacker's ability to not do damage when applying to an ally in the right circumstances.
There are other examples of there being pretty clear difference in small arm vs long arm style of a similiar weapon line. (the Line series of weapons being one that I remember off hand).
Nightarch (revolver) and the Caustolance (in a sniper style-scopes and quiet stuff etc) are something I enjoy. I still want an actual "injection sniper rifle that does damage" though. Preferably bolt action physical style... just for rule of cool? also.. tranq rifle looking style
Also with a few injection shuriken with Healing in them. Since I could use it with an auto hit in range.
Huh I could see that. I can't find the line that used to be in Biohacks about 1 iteration at a time. So I've probably been remembering that frorm the playtest.
So i guess you can technically Minor-Basic-FoS inhibitor one person over 3 attacks. Meaning With the right fields, you could make a lot of penalties with a basic -2ac. -1 to hit and Sickened condition over the course of a few rounds. (or attacks if you're feeling confident-though the second attack with a minor is almost cost free)
Nope.
Basic Inhibitor wrote:
A creature can be affected by only one of your basic inhibitors at a time, though it could be under the effects of multiple basic inhibitors originating from multiple biohackers.
Minor Biohacks wrote:
Minor biohacks are otherwise used as and function as basic booster and basic inhibitor biohacks, and they count as such biohacks for the purposes of interactions with other abilities (such as spark of ingenuity).
Fields of Study wrote:
Each field’s booster, inhibitor, and breakthrough ability follow the rules for basic biohacks unless specified otherwise.
Basic biohacks set the basic rules for all forms of biohacks, and minor biohacks and field of study biohacks only change those rules where they specifically say so. (E.g. effects available, sometimes duration as with the Genetics booster, and most definitely uses available with minor biohacks.) None of them explicitly state they allow you to change the basic biohacker rule of only one inhibitor at at time, so you can't do that.
Huh I could see that. I can't find the line that used to be in Biohacks about 1 iteration at a time. So I've probably been remembering that frorm the playtest.
So i guess you can technically Minor-Basic-FoS inhibitor one person over 3 attacks. Meaning With the right fields, you could make a lot of penalties with a basic -2ac. -1 to hit and Sickened condition over the course of a few rounds. (or attacks if you're feeling confident-though the second attack with a minor is almost cost free)
Nope.
Basic Inhibitor wrote:
A creature can be affected by only one of your basic inhibitors at a time, though it could be under the effects of multiple basic inhibitors originating from multiple biohackers.
Minor Biohacks wrote:
Minor biohacks are otherwise used as and function as basic booster and basic inhibitor biohacks, and they count as such biohacks for the purposes of interactions with other abilities (such as spark of ingenuity).
Fields of Study wrote:
Each field’s booster, inhibitor, and breakthrough ability follow the rules for basic biohacks unless specified otherwise.
Basic biohacks set the basic rules for all forms of biohacks, and minor biohacks and field of study biohacks only change those rules where they specifically say so. (E.g. effects available, sometimes duration as with the Genetics booster, and most definitely uses available with minor biohacks.) None of them explicitly state they allow you to change the basic biohacker rule of only one inhibitor at at time, so you can't do that.
I why Paizo has changed the wording from :
Counteragent:
A counteragent hinders a creature’s defenses. The effects of a counteragent last for a number of rounds equal to half your key ability score modifier (minimum 1 round) unless stated otherwise. A creature can be under the effect of only one of your counteragents at a time, though it could be under the effect of multiple counteragents originating from multiple biohackers. If you affect a creature with a different one of your counteragents, the effects of the previous counteragent end (although see the spark of ingenuity class feature on page 4 for one exception). When you use a counteragent injection, it can have one of the following effects.
(do not make distinction between minor/basic/unique inhibitor and just say "inhibitors don't stack")
to :
"basic inhibitor don't stack, minor inhibitor count as basic inhibitor, unique inhibitors follow the rules for basic inhibitor"?
The first wording was simpler and took less lines.
Also if the uniques inhibitors follow the rules of the basic inhibitor, then it should means they works with Spark Of Ingenuity. Yet that feature specifically says that the minor inhibitor works with it, but it shouldn't need to specify it since minor inhibitor "count as basic inhibitor". And Spark Of Ingenuity doesn't talk about unique inhibitors. Why that ability talks about the minor inhibitor but not about uniques inhibitors? Why is it so poorly worded?
1. Do the caustolance do damage when injecting something? The text seems to indicate that it works as the caustoject, but I'm not sure about that.
RAW yes it still does damage, but RAI id assume not, as someone else said, best to ask your GM
Charlesfire wrote:
2. Can I inject a poison and a biohack at the same time with an injection weapon? The text of the Biohack class feature says "any attack" so I supose it works? (I ask this question because I think it's relevant to the next question)
yes, a biohack is an EX ability that adds an extra effect on top of the attack its boosting, it is NOT ammo, and it is NOT somthing that fills the syringe or whatever, it is in addition to the attacks normal effect, you can use any ammo type with it, including drugs, poisons, and medicinals.
Note however, that the attack MUST DEAL DAMAGE in order to apply an inhibitor, so if you use a biohack with a drug for example, it will fail to apply the inhibitor as it will fail to deal damage (at least in the case of the caustoject, caustolance is down to GM, as above)
Charlesfire wrote:
3. Do the caustolance and caustoject do damage when injecting a biohack without injecting something else? Personally, I would say yes if the answer of #2 is yes since it would means that the biohack doesn't count as something using the injection property of the weapon, thus not disabling the damage.
yes, they not only still deal damage, they HAVE to in order to apply the inhibitor, otherwise theyd be completely useless to biohackers.
Charlesfire wrote:
4. Same as #2, but with medicinals made with the Medication Mastery theorem.
5. Same as #3, but with medicinals made with the Medication Mastery theorem.
Medication Mastery explicitly states it cant be added with a biohack, but it should still deal damage for the same reason that biohacks still deal damage, medication mastery applies its effect in addition to the attack, its not actually replacing the ammo, I know fluff wise youd assume it does, but rules wise it does not state that it is ammo of any kind, just that it is added to the attack (ie, is in addition to the attacks normal effect)
Charlesfire wrote:
6. Can I use the Medication Mastery theorem with an attack that use a medicinal not made with the theorem? The idea is to use two medicinals at the same time.
techinically yes, for the same reason as above, it is in addition to the attack, and if the attack is using ammo filled with a medicinal, then it is in additional to that ammo.
Charlesfire wrote:
7. Why Spark Of Ingenuity can't be used with biohack given by Fields of Study?
the wording says only 'basic' or 'minor' biohacks, and its not clear is fields of study biohack are 'basic' or not.
However, the wording also mentions about if they have different durations, and all 'basic' and 'minor' biohacks have the same durations... so this implies that the fields of study may count as basic? ask your GM :)
PS: on reading the rules for basic biohacks, it implies that basic biohacks can have different durations from the default, but none of the ones listed imediatly under it do, some fields of study biohacks do however, this I would say is again implying that fields of study are also 'basic' biohacks.
Charlesfire wrote:
8. Can I load multiple substances in the caustoject in advance?
I believe so yes, though only one substance fired per shot (not including biohacks and medication mastery)
Charlesfire wrote:
9. Same as #8, but with the others injections weapons in general.
again I would assume yes, remember that injection expert says you can even choose which substance is fired next regardless of the order in which you loaded the ammo.
('When you fire a weapon with the injection special property and you have multiple types of ammunition loaded into the weapon, you choose
which type of ammunition you fire when you attempt the attack')
Charlesfire wrote:
10. Do the conserving weapon fusion prevent the waste of a biohack when missing a range attack?
This I would say is down to your GM, since the biohack is NOT ammo, but an added effect on to the attack, I would assume it DOESN'T prevent the biohack from being wasted, your GM may dissagree however.
Charlesfire wrote:
11. The glove needler is a small arms that has a range of "reach ft". Do I make range attack rolls with it? Does it provoke attacks of opportunity?
read its description in the book ;) it explicitly states that it doesnt provoke dispite being a ranged attack at melee range.
note that you could also use a syringe stick, as they are operative weapons in addition to injection weapons, which means they get to add DEX instead of STR just like a ranged attack.
Charlesfire wrote:
12. What happens if I try to use a biohack with a blast attack as the one given by the blasting weapon fusion?
Oh wow, I didnt think of that, I think thats down to GM.
both the initial declaration of a blast attack, as well as each individual roll against each target is worded as 'an attack' and biohacks apply to 'an attack' so I could see it being ruled either as effecting eveyone hit, or only effecting the first target in the cone that gets hit (since you roll for each target one at a time form closest out)
note that the wording on biohacks also says that its the action used to make the attack that is applying the biohack (not the ammo itself, even though it goes on to a say that misses mean the biohack isnt applied)
I can see this being OP though, so id probably want to rule it as only applying to the first target hit.
Charlesfire wrote:
13. Same as #12, but with poisons, drugs, medicinals, serums, etc.
I believe that the relevent ammo should apply to ALL targets hit by the blast, as the wording on blast explicitly says that ammo for blast weapons is designed to do that, and it only expends the one ammo.
Seems pretty strong, but its harder to argue against this one, note to self: get blast on inject weapons!
Charlesfire wrote:
14. Can I stack the effect of a basic inhibitor and the effect of a unique inhibitor given by a field of study? Personally, I would say yes since it is only stated that the basic inhibitor can't stack with itself and that the minor inhibitor can't stack with the basic inhibitor, but I want to be sure...
based on my answer to 7, I would assume that field of study biohacks are 'basic' biohacks and as such no biohacks can be stacked with any other biohacks.
Charlesfire wrote:
15. Is there any way to make the poisons less expensive?
not that im aware of, unless your GM houserules somthing
Charlesfire wrote:
16. Can I use poisons with explosive ammo?
Id assume no, since using a poison is using a specific type of ammo, you cant use more than one ammo at the same time :P
you can have explosive ammo and poison ammo loaded in the gun at the same time though, and due to injection expert, can pick which one is fired each time regardless of load order.
This is all based on my readings of the rules of course, but im pretty confident on these answers
(FIrst question: Poison ammo is an ammo type? I thought you could just load Poison into a dart? And Explosive ammo is still a needle just deals half fire. So couldnt' you do both? Or is there actual poison ammo now?)
I would love if the Blast infusion worked with injection weapon's properties and b iohacks. its only 1/day right? So not too insane.
Granted, you can just carry several I guess so thats a thing thats hard to judge against.
but I think it would only effect one..
Blasting fusion tells you can make one attack into a Blast and refer the property. The property states
"For each attack you make with a weapon with the blast special property, roll one attack against each target in the cone, starting with those closest to you"
So you change the one attack (As you could have multiple attacks due to bab) into a Blast type with the property. The property states for each attack with it. You roll one attack against those in the zone.
So while you are transforming one attack into a blast. That blast causes multiple attacks. So arguably a Biohack won't be applied to everyone free.
I think you could however, use your entire batch up at once. (Assuming you can use more than one biohack a round. I believe you can? I never checked.)
So you could spend one attack. to make a blast attack (as a full round). Then roll attacks vs everyone in the cone. And freely add biohacks OR medicinal mastry to the various attack rolls involved in said blast attack.
======
However-I have no clue about a normal Injection item. Such as Non-medicinal mastery pharma or poisons. Since you are transforming that one ammo into hitting alll of them. Nor are you using MORE ammo. Its still just the one technomagically changed.
I would argue that not biohacks-not medicinal mastery "Filled ammo" would be copied to all the targets. The game doesn't treat filled darts as any different than normal ammo. And normal ammo will apply to all of them. (whether its Explosive ammo or any other change. Neither blast nor the fusion specify against specialty ammo).
Its a good way to use specific piece of limited ammo though. Makes poisons fairly usable for the costs. Sedatives are a bit hilarious with it.
Basically though, it would cost a fair bit, but is a nice 1/day trick. Effectively its like buying grenades (but a tad more economical)
-------
I think the fusion is still a good idea though. If "filled" counts then you could use it to mass heal your friends. Or use it to Buff all of them at once.
Or use it to buff your friends and debuff e nemies all at once (using your whole hacking supply b asically).
Biohackers can choose their ammo loaded in the moment. And.
biohackers can elect to not do damage to their allies.
So for a full round action and a fusion. You can actually hit enemies, and not hit your allies, all within the zone. While adding biohacks/Med mastery to the various attacks within. You just have to declare before attack rolls if you're applying one or the other or neither.
It is a good 1/day trick. That eats everything probably.
12. What happens if I try to use a biohack with a blast attack as the one given by the blasting weapon fusion?
At first I thought there was a restriction against this, as I'd just seen it when building my character. But no, the restriction was to my Double-tap feat. Aside from the feat, I guess you're good.
