Do Cantrips in Spontaneous Spellcaster Repertoire exist in Spell Slots?


Rules Discussion

Liberty's Edge

The question involved here relates to the note stating that Cantrips do not use Spell Slots although the Class Table for both Sorcerer and Bard includes a column for this where daily Spell Slots are listed.

There is mainly a consideration regarding how one character adds additional Cantrips since the Cantrip Expansion Feat notes that the cantrips are added to your repertoire but it makes no mention of gaining additional Cantrip "Spell Slots" to actually cast them.

From my perspective, it seems that there are two different interpretations to be had here.
1) Any Cantrip you Learn or which is added to your Repertoire will automatically increase the number of Cantrip "Spell Slots" that the PC has. 5 Cantrips changes to 7.
2) Cantrips added to a Spontaneous Spellcasters Rep are added to a "hidden" table for your Character to select from when the Level Up as described in the section outlining how you swap out spells. 5 Cantrips stays 5.

My tilt here is mainly aimed at understanding how Magical Shorthand should work for a Spontaneous Caster since it overrides the normal rules for Leaning a Spell as I see it, and if interpretation #1 wins out that seems to suggest that any and all Cantrips Learned via Magical Shorthand ALSO expand your number of Cantrip "Spell Slots" whereas option #2 would mean that Cantrip Expansion as a Feat does not actually increase your Cantrip versatility but instead gives you additional Spells which you can switch out when you next Level Up.

This has been discussed somewhat around here already but in tinkering with a Character Idea I discovered that these rules seem to be in a really weird place where I find myself uncertain how Cantrip "Slots" should be handled. I was trying to make a Character who has access to as many Cantrips as possible and via Magical Shorthand, by my reading, it seems that for the paltry cost of 2gp and some downtime. Another "catch" in this is that Magical Shorthand accounts for Spell Level but fails to note how it interacts with a Cantrip, does it automatically default to the highest Level Spell you CAN cast since these are automatically Heightened?

Thoughts?


They do not, as far as I can tell, and I believe most things that talk about "using a spell slot" also have explicit reminders that cantrips don't count. I think the game treats Cantrips as something separate from Spells.


Magical Shorthand still uses the "Learn a Spell" activity, it just makes it faster, potentially cheaper, and softens the failure. The cost and DC for a Cantrip are listed in the Learn a Spell activity.

The Learn a Spell activity also specifically addresses Repertoire casters.

Quote:
If you have a spellbook, Learning a Spell lets you add the spell to your spellbook; if you prepare spells from a list, it’s added to your list; if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells.

A Repertoire caster can cast any Cantrip in their Repertoire at any time. Cantrip Expansion adds Cantrips to their Repertoire. Learn a Spell does not.

Liberty's Edge

Aratorin wrote:

Magical Shorthand still uses the "Learn a Spell" activity, it just makes it faster, potentially cheaper, and softens the failure. The cost and DC for a Cantrip are listed in the Learn a Spell activity.

The Learn a Spell activity also specifically addresses Repertoire casters.

Quote:
If you have a spellbook, Learning a Spell lets you add the spell to your spellbook; if you prepare spells from a list, it’s added to your list; if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells.
A Repertoire caster can cast any Cantrip in their Repertoire at any time. Cantrip Expansion adds Cantrips to their Repertoire. Learn a Spell does not.

So in light of this, then that means that Cantrip Expansion doesn't actually increase the number of Cantrips a Spontaneous Caster can have ready to cast at-will (Since it specified that ... if a feat or another ability adds a spell to your spell repertoire, it wouldn't give you another spell slot, and vise versa.), it just adds the two additional Cantrips to the "Can add/swap" pool you can modify when you level up. Yeah? No? Does this boil down to "Do Cantrips have Spell Slots" or ... I dunno.

There seems to be this pretty nebulous space where Spontaneous Casters can have a "Learned Spell" but that spell doesn't exist in the "Spell Reperoitore" that is codified fairly well for 1st - 10th level spells, but seems to fall on its face when addressing Cantrips.

I may be confusing myself and overcomplicating all of this but something feels "off" about all of these Cantrip exceptions and considerations as it relates to Spell Slots and the Repertoire.


No. Cantrip Expansion states:

Quote:
You better understand the basic power of your bloodline. Add two additional cantrips from your spell list to your repertoire.

It works the same way for Sorcerers as it does for every other Caster. You get 2 additional Cantrips that you can cast.

Learn a Spell adds the spells to your Spell List, from which you can choose spells to add to your Repertoire when you level, or when an ability tells you.

If you used Learn a Spell to add 2 Cantrips to your Spell List that were not previously on your Spell List, you could then take Cantrip Expansion to add those spells to your Repertoire, and cast them.

For a Sorcerer, Learn a Spell is really only useful for adding Uncommon and Rare spells to your Spell List, as all Common spells of your Tradition are already on your Spell List.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I believe the key thing is that Casting a Cantrip does not CONSUME its 'slot', while casting an otherwise leveled spell does consume the slot, making it so that you can't cast it again.

Because Cantrip Expansion says int adds 2 cantrips to your Repertoire that means you can choose to cast them whenever you want as long as you aren't out of slots. Since cantrips don't eliminate their slot, the spontaneous caster can cast all of them as much as they want, as long as nothing else stops its, like having had a blocked shield spell recently.

Note it adds the the Repertoire, not to spells known. Spells known for a sorcerer, represents the spells available to them. (uncommon or other such spells have to be known before they can be added to their Repertoire. So Expanded Cantrip doesn't add to the spell available to swap, it adds spells able to be cast (for spontaneous casters)

Prepared casters it instead specifies that it adds 2 spells to their number of spells that can be prepared. Again, not spells known, since spells known are just spells that they could prepare.

So in this sense, I think cantrips do have slots, they just don't consume them, instead they simply occupy them.

Magical Shorthand would only affect the ability to affect Known spells, which would affect how quickly a spontaneous caster could learn a spell that wasn't common, for instance, but wouldn't affect the time to get it into the Repertoire, save for the potential learning part of it, if that is relevant.

Ascalaphus pointed out the following link to Pathfinder Society rules on how long it takes to swap a spell in your Repertoire.
http://www.organizedplayfoundation.org/encyclopedia/pfs2edplayer-basics/#do wntime-retraining

That post can be found at:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42y8m?My-sorcerer-keeps-on-retraining-spells#1 5


I imagine that sorcerers are pretty much one of the core original reasons why they might choose not to have cantrips fall into this "in spell slot" category.

Pretty much all bloodline magics have options that provide nice little bonuses that you would like ALL of the time. If cantrips counted.... then your sorcerer would constantly be shooting off lightning to get better saving throws.

And the diabolic sorcerer would have to roll two deception checks- one offering a 'perfectly reasonable deal', and the other to explain why he keeps on small fireballs around during the conversation.

More seriously, without the cheese- I was sad when I realized the elemental bloodline doesn't apply to cantrips. Since it automatically heightened, I thought I could make my fire sorcerer get a meaty little attack spell that he could throw around for free.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Cantrips don't use spell slots. If they did, then there wouldn't have been much need for the staff errata.


Ravingdork wrote:
Cantrips don't use spell slots. If they did, then there wouldn't have been much need for the staff errata.

Cantrips for Spontaneous casters don't use Spell Slots, but Cantrips for Prepared casters do:

Quote:
If you’re a prepared caster, you have a number of cantrip spell slots that you use to prepare your cantrips.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Midnightoker wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Cantrips don't use spell slots. If they did, then there wouldn't have been much need for the staff errata.

Cantrips for Spontaneous casters don't use Spell Slots, but Cantrips for Prepared casters do:

Quote:
If you’re a prepared caster, you have a number of cantrip spell slots that you use to prepare your cantrips.

Where does that sentence appear? If it hasn't already, that's going to get errata'd. There are too many rules that specifically refer to spell slots that are not intended to work with cantrips. If they did, they would become unbalanced.

Take the aforementioned staff exploit, for example. If I was a 12th-level fighter with wizard dedication, I could get 6 charges on my staff each day, if my cantrips count as spell slots. It wouldn't matter that I can't actually cast 6th-level spells.

The errata changed the wording from “highest level of spell you’re able to cast” to “highest-level spell slot you have.” If cantrips had spell slots, then this errata doesn't really fix anything.

Also, the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer and wizard class entries for cantrip all say "A cantrip is a special type of spell that doesn’t use spell slots."


Ravingdork wrote:
does that sentence appear?

Chapter 7: Spells

Cantrips
Source Core Rulebook pg. 300

"A cantrip is a special type of spell that’s weaker than other spells but can be used with greater freedom and flexibility. The title of a cantrip’s stat block says “Cantrip” instead of “Spell.” Casting a cantrip doesn’t use up your spell slots; you can cast a cantrip at will, any number of times per day. If you’re a prepared caster, you have a number of cantrip spell slots that you use to prepare your cantrips. You can’t prepare a cantrip in any other slot.

A cantrip is always automatically heightened to half your level, rounded up. For a typical spellcaster, this means its level is equal to the highest level of spell slot you have."


Ravingdork wrote:

Take the aforementioned staff exploit, for example. If I was a 12th-level fighter with wizard dedication, I could get 6 charges on my staff each day, if my cantrips count as spell slots. It wouldn't matter that I can't actually cast 6th-level spells.

It depends on how you read the exact wording of the Staff section

It says you can "expend" a spell slot.

I would argue that you cannot expend a Cantrip Spell Slot, so you still can't charge staffs with Cantrips even if they do in fact take up slots, you can only cast a Cantrip using the slot. Since casting the spell has no effect on the slot preparation (and therefore it can't be "expended"), you still can't charge staves with it.

Quote:
If you’re a prepared caster, you have a number of cantrip spell slots that you use to prepare your cantrips. You can’t prepare a cantrip in any other slot.

This is described under Cantrips.

Also under the Chapter 7: Spells / Spellslots section for prepared spells, Cantrips are also mentioned (which implies they do have slots).

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