Is the incapacitation trait meant to interact with Evasion/Juggernaut/Resolve and similar class features? Does a failure become a critical success? Or does the trait not interact with those abilities?
That seems broken.
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They do.
The errata mentions “no ability”, singular, these are two different things, and again are most likely not going to overlap due to who the targets are.
The Class abilities bump the save to a specific roll, whereas Incapacitation bumps your save by 1. Two different effects.
Yes, though I'd switch the order.
Spell effects target less, then target's nature reduces/alters that.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with Rsky. The Errata was to clarify that if you roll a Critical Failure, Greater Juggernaut and the like don't turn it into a failure, and then halve the damage of the failure. It has 0 bearing on the interaction of Juggernaut and Incapacitation.
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Not in the slightest.
Read how Incapacitation functions (target has to be double the level) and what spells actually have it. It’s more often gonna come up against NPCs than players, which are the ones who have Juggernaut/Evasion/Resolve.
The creature's level must be double the spell level, or higher than the other character's level. A level 3 monster has the benefit of incapacitate against all level 1 spells, and all level 2 character abilities, ie, everything just a single level lower. A party of four level 3 PCs would have the benefit of incapacitation bonus against a moderate encounter (3 monks @ level 2).
Running it as you interpret is just overbearing and I really doubt RAI.
Lover level threats can’t one-shot the party, how is that overbearing?
And again, Incapacitation only applies with abilities with the Incapacitation Trait, not all abilities.
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So, I originally was going to post agreeing with Rysky but looking at it again I'm not so sure.
The change to Greater Juggernaut is pretty important here "when you roll a failure", rather than "when you fail". This is abundantly explicit, what matters is what you roll, not what the check becomes after modification.
If you roll a critical failure against an Incap spell, Incapacitation turns it into a failure.
If a spell has the incapacitation trait, any creature of more than twice the spell’s level treats the result of their check to prevent being incapacitated by the spell as one degree of success better
Greater Juggernaut triggers, but what you rolled is a Critical Failure, and if you roll a Critical Failure, Greater Juggernaut says:
When you roll a critical failure on a Fortitude save, you get a failure instead.
So Greater Juggernaut turns the ability into a Failure, but since Incapacitation already did that, effectively nothing happens. It's not that the abilities don't stack, it's that both abilities do the same thing.
However, if you instead roll a failure:
When you roll a failure on a Fortitude save against an effect that deals damage, you halve the damage you take.
Incapacitation would bump that up to a success, but since you rolled a failure, Greater Juggernaut would still trigger. So you'd halve any damage the spell did on a success. Quivering Palm, for instance, would only end up doing 20 damage.
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We are all in agreement that no single ability/trait will change the tier of success/failure by more than 1 step.
Rysky is absolutely right the trait is separate from the abilities.
Now does it necessarily follow that they stack with each other? No. One doesn't necessarily mean the other. It's a valid line of thought that they might stack, but after reading the ideas posted here and double-checking the errata I think Squiggit has the right of it.
The errata shows an intention by the developers to emphasize the roll itself, not the modified tier of success/failure.
(I'll also note that part of the wording from the errata was people would look at these abilities and say, "So I rolled a 1, but that means that [X] makes it a failure. Also [X] says that when I get a failure I instead get a success." So the language was addressing that bit of nonsense, not this bit of nonsense, but I also agree with Squiggit.)
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Juggernaut affects the result based on the roll, then incapacitation adjusts that result.
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How would this work if there was a curse that made it one degree worst. There is an item in a published adventure that makes saves against any sleep type spells one degree worst. The pc that has this curse is a cleric with resolve. This is coming up soon that I will need to know the interactions with the curse, resolve and possible incapacitation trait.
Would you mind giving us the details of the item (with spoiler tags if necessary) so we could take a look at the specific wording of the item?