Hidden vs AoO


Rules Discussion


What happens when an invisible(hidden) creature tries to move away using sneak from a fighter? How about using stride?

does he get an AoO?
can you generally trigger reactions as hidden? and as unnoticed?


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It is a funny one.

Undetected creatures cannot be targeted, so unless something changes that the person with AoO technically can trigger it but they cannot make the strike so it is mute. (You wouldn't be able to make a guess strike thanks to the wording of AoO)

Hidden and Concealed creatures are 100% fair game though and can be hit with AoO.


My gut is that you can't make an AoO against someone who successfully sneaks but could if they failed to sneak or just used Stride.


I would agree with Cap and Grog on this one. Undetected precludes AOO. If you somehow had a sense that could sense them anyway, like say motionsense, then they would no longer be undetected, instead being either hidden or just observed so could be targeted normally.


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

It is a funny one.

Undetected creatures cannot be targeted, so unless something changes that the person with AoO technically can trigger it but they cannot make the strike so it is mute. (You wouldn't be able to make a guess strike thanks to the wording of AoO)

Hidden and Concealed creatures are 100% fair game though and can be hit with AoO.

I feel like it would be fun to have a particular homeruled stealth crit failure- the invisible creature accidentally walks into the spear of a passing guard.

I would only apply such an effect if the invisible creature 'triggered' an AoO- walking through the creature square without doing a step action ('rushing' past the guard too closely, basically), doing an interact action that distracts it and prevents it reacting fast enough to the approaching guard, etc. The kind of stuff that wouldn't come up if you weren't playing fast and loose just because you are invisible.


lemeres wrote:

I feel like it would be fun to have a particular homeruled stealth crit failure- the invisible creature accidentally walks into the spear of a passing guard.

Heh, full 3 stooges effect with a plank. Just gorier ;)


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When you are invisible, you REALLY need to look both ways before crossing the street.


well, I know this is not a game of logic, but AoO on invisible creatures(even just hidden ones) is kinda dumb. How would a fighter see an invisible enemy "let his guard down" without proper senses, even if he knows in which square he is?

I get that some rules are here for balance reasons, so I also agree that invisible creatures shouldn't get more bonuses then they already do, but it feels wrong...


Debelinho wrote:

well, I know this is not a game of logic, but AoO on invisible creatures(even just hidden ones) is kinda dumb. How would a fighter see an invisible enemy "let his guard down" without proper senses, even if he knows in which square he is?

I get that some rules are here for balance reasons, so I also agree that invisible creatures shouldn't get more bonuses then they already do, but it feels wrong...

Just making this clear unless you are confused. RAW invisible creatures aren't able to be targeted by AoO while undetected.

Hidden has the target knowing the exact square the target is in, so personally I have less issue for it working on hidden foes (the miss chance still covers how hard it is to hit).


Debelinho wrote:

well, I know this is not a game of logic, but AoO on invisible creatures(even just hidden ones) is kinda dumb. How would a fighter see an invisible enemy "let his guard down" without proper senses, even if he knows in which square he is?

Why does the fighter needs to "see" anything. He's fighting with an invisible creature and at some point this creature lowers its guard and the fighter get a hit.


SuperBidi wrote:
Debelinho wrote:

well, I know this is not a game of logic, but AoO on invisible creatures(even just hidden ones) is kinda dumb. How would a fighter see an invisible enemy "let his guard down" without proper senses, even if he knows in which square he is?

Why does the fighter needs to "see" anything. He's fighting with an invisible creature and at some point this creature lowers its guard and the fighter get a hit.

are you asking ruleswise, or arguing that logically you wouldn't need to see someone to exploit his "mistakes" in combat?


I agree that manipulate actions and ranged attacks shouldn't provoke if you're invisible, but if the fighter has figured out what square you're in, it probably involves some sort of visual cue like the Earth being slightly depressed by your weight or dust on the floor being kicked up. If that's the case, it isn't crazy to think they might notice moving away from similar signs. But if you succeed on Sneak check, then you wouldn't leave those signs.

Or so I figure, at least.


but RAW, for society play, invisibility(hidden) doesn't help in any way for triggering reactions, right?


Debelinho wrote:
but RAW, for society play, invisibility(hidden) doesn't help in any way for triggering reactions, right?

Weeeell... Reactions aren't things that happen automatically, they are actions you choose to take. I think you can make a pretty good case that you need to be aware of something happening to choose to use an action for it. You could always choose not to take the AoO anyway.


I think the basic logic for AoO on invisible creatures is that the fighter is carefully listening to the creature, trying to keep track of it... and then it suddenly stops moving.

Even if I don't know what it is doing, I would try to take a swing at it. The real question is whether the invisible creature is distracted enough to fail to dodge.

Movement based AoOs are even simpler- you just take a swing at the creature when you hear it trying to run past you.

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