|
Hey all!
One of my players asked me to look over their fighters build plan, and I have to say, it turned up something I haven't seen discussed yet. That is, the potentially crazy distances characters can potentially leap to thanks to Cloud Jump.
_________________________
Character Relevant feats and abilities:
1) Assurance (Athletics)
2) Powerful Leap
3) Quick Jump
4) Cloud Jump
Assume Legendary in Athletics and a Strength over 20.
_________________________
My player has put to me the following:
While making a Long Jump (a single action thanks to Quick Jump, with no additional Stride required), they can take the default check of 38 (at 20th level) thanks to Assurance, for a Long Jump distance of 43ft (+5 from Powerful leap) - Additionally, they are an Elf with Fleet and Boots of Bounding for 45ft base movement. Since Cloud Jump triples the distance you can Long Jump, this would provide him with a Long Jump of 129ft, for 1 action, no check.
Does this look right to everyone?
The contention was "Why would I ever bother to take a Stride again when I can just bounce everywhere?" and its a compelling case given how much additional distance they can cover on a single jump.
Are 20th level characters with Athletics just going to be bouncing all over the place instead of doing any actual movement?
This would work on even surfaces, and since it's a case of paper grid movement, he'd be correct. Jumping and leaping everywhere instead of simple Strides would be incredible. Certainly worthy of Legendary capabilities.
But the minute he runs into stairs or different levels of elevation, he's in big trouble, since you cannot do both Long and High jumps simultaneously. If a ledge or incline of stairs is raised even 1 foot higher than usual, he'll stub his toe, and be forced to end his movement there since he cannot move through physical objects, and/or spend a reaction to grab onto a ledge (if his hands are free) if it's a cliffside. He can do Long Jumps from there, but then he isn't covering anywhere near as much distance, since High Jumps offer little to no horizontal movement (5 feet max).
Certainly an interesting combination of skills and something probably intended by the game, but it's by no means broken compared to when spellcasters in 1st edition could fly 24/7 after a certain level, a thing that made them faster than land speed by quite a bunch, and didn't result in the above shenanigans if players knew how flight rules worked.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That doesn't quite work, at least not as I read it.
You can't leap further than your speed. Cloud Jump overcomes this, but it requires extra actions to cover that gap. So, sure, you can jump your 129 feet, but it costs all three of your actions.
Long Jump
"You can’t Leap farther than your Speed."
Cloud Jump
"When you Long Jump or High Jump, you can also increase the number of actions you use (up to the number of actions you have remaining in your turn) to jump even further. For each extra action, add your Speed to the maximum distance you jump."
Also powerful leap doesn't effect Long Jump or High Jump, it effects the Leap action. All three are different actions. So he can Long Jump 38 feet with a single action, or 114 feet if he uses all three.
He's saying that even if you can make a check with the Cloud Leap feat, you still can't exceed your speed unless you expend more actions to extend your total speed to the desired amount.
|
|
Looking into it more, the language involved is actually a little jumbled but my initial understanding of Powerful leap looks to be right.
Long Jump
You Stride, then make a horizontal Leap and attempt an Athletics check to increase the length of your jump. The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so you’d need to succeed at a DC 20 check to Leap 20 feet). You can’t Leap farther than your Speed.If you didn’t Stride at least 10 feet, or if you attempt to jump in a different direction than your Stride, you automatically fail your check. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.
Success Increase the maximum horizontal distance you Leap to the desired distance.
Failure You Leap normally.
Critical Failure You Leap normally, but then fall and land prone.
Leap, leap, and leap again.
It looks like both High Jump and Long Jumps are modified Leaps, and so would benefit from Powerful Leap, as all it does as add distance to leaps, which is mechanically all that they are.
Cloud Jump on the other hand looks to be a bit more complicated and not easy to resolve without some direct input from a designer.
Cloud Jump
Your unparalleled athletic skill allows you to jump impossible distances. Triple the distance you Long Jump (so you could jump 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check). When you High Jump, use the calculation for a Long Jump but don’t triple the distance.
To me, the intention here seems pretty explicit, in that it allows you to break the Distance-Speed link.
However I concede that the language doesn't state this outright and one could take it as still being limited. Though I do think the that the text spells out a 60ft leap on a DC 20 does have that intention.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Looking into it more, the language involved is actually a little jumbled but my initial understanding of Powerful leap looks to be right.
Long Jump
You Stride, then make a horizontal Leap and attempt an Athletics check to increase the length of your jump. The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so you’d need to succeed at a DC 20 check to Leap 20 feet). You can’t Leap farther than your Speed.If you didn’t Stride at least 10 feet, or if you attempt to jump in a different direction than your Stride, you automatically fail your check. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.
Success Increase the maximum horizontal distance you Leap to the desired distance.
Failure You Leap normally.
Critical Failure You Leap normally, but then fall and land prone.Leap, leap, and leap again.
It looks like both High Jump and Long Jumps are modified Leaps, and so would benefit from Powerful Leap, as all it does as add distance to leaps, which is mechanically all that they are.
Cloud Jump on the other hand looks to be a bit more complicated and not easy to resolve without some direct input from a designer.
Cloud Jump
Your unparalleled athletic skill allows you to jump impossible distances. Triple the distance you Long Jump (so you could jump 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check). When you High Jump, use the calculation for a Long Jump but don’t triple the distance.To me, the intention here seems pretty explicit, in that it allows you to break the Distance-Speed link.
However I concede that the language doesn't state this outright and one could take it as still being limited. Though I do think the that the text spells out a 60ft leap on a DC 20 does have that intention.
I agree w/ all of that.
Cloud Jump is the specific that overrules the general re: distance, otherwise it really needs to state "up to your speed" or similar language, though that would make tripling your leap pretty useless for many PCs.
You can make these jumps (which use the Leap action), gaining all the bonuses of leap feats your PC has, so yes a PC could likely leap around faster than they could run.
Think Spiderman or the Hulk, who both leap faster than they run, and if comparing to superheroes seems silly, note it is a Legendary feat. Those PCs are superheroes. And/or Gummi Bears.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So we've established that Powerful Leap is no longer a part of the equation here as Leap and Long Jump are different.
*** (This got brought back up while I was writing this reply. I'd argue Powerful Leap wouldn't go into your long jump calculations simply because the text for Leap describes states "You take a careful, short jump" which seems very different from what we are going for with maxing this Long Jump. Either way it wont make much difference. If you are going with the jump distance capped by speed it will have no effect, if you are going with an uncapped jump distance then your jump is already so ridiculous it probably wont matter at all. I am also of the opinion that even though you Stride and Leap as part of the Long Jump action that action is still distinct from taking the Leap action by itself.)
Looking at the text for Long Jump "The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so you’d need to succeed at a DC 20 check to Leap 20 feet)You can’t Leap farther than your Speed."
and Cloud Jump "Your unparalleled athletic skill allows you to jump impossible distances. Triple the distance you Long Jump (so you could jump 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check). When you High Jump, use the calculation for a Long Jump but don’t triple the distance."
Then things boil down to whether, as the GM, you go with a RAW or a RAI interpretation for your game.
RAW Assurance is only granting you a default check and default jump distance of 38ft. Cloud Jump has no text in it that states the Long Jump rule of not being able to jump further than your move speed (the wording makes it apparent that this limitation is no longer in effect for 2 or 3 action jumps). In this case your 38 tripled gets capped at 45ft. With options to jump 90 or 135 ft for additional actions.
If you want to go with the argument that Cloud Jump breaks that initial restriction then you have a 114 ft Long Jump with options to go 159ft or 204ft.
I would most likely go with the 1st interpretation as jumping 45 feet already stretches the imagination and fits better within the normal rules and boundaries of the game. A brief look at some other mobility based skills and I couldn't find anything that comes close to accomplishing this without using any magic or focus whatsoever. Jumping 114 feet with sheer muscle kinda jumps the shark for me.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So we've established that Powerful Leap is no longer a part of the equation here as Leap and Long Jump are different.
Not sure we have. The description for Leap, Long Jump and High Jump all imply that the latter two are modifications to the former, rather than entirely unique things.
I would most likely go with the 1st interpretation as jumping 45 feet already stretches the imagination
Either way, it's a legendary action, so designed to be in the realm of superhuman, so I don't think how realistic it is or isn't has any bearing on what's the right call or not.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
|
|
Yeah I may have jumped the gun by saying we had established it already, but I'll break it down a bit more to illustrate my point.
Full text for Long Jump: "You Stride, then make a horizontal Leap and attempt an Athletics check to increase the length of your jump. The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so you’d need to succeed at a DC 20 check to Leap 20 feet). You can’t Leap farther than your Speed."
"You Stride..."
We have Quick Jump to get rid of the Stride Requirement.
"...then make a horizontal Leap..."
Leap: "You take a careful, short jump. You can Leap up to 10 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 15 feet, or up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet. You land in the space where your Leap ends (meaning you can typically clear a 5-foot gap, or a 10-foot gap if your Speed is 30 feet or more)."
If you wanted to make Powerful Leap apply this is where I would factor it in. This high level character has a speed of 45 so his normal Leap would be 15ft. Powerful Leap would increase this to 20ft.
"...and attempt an Athletics check to increase the length of your jump"
So we are now at the point where we are exceeding or changing the calculation of what our Leap would normally be.
Basically as I am interpreting it the Long Jump check doesn't take into account what your normal Leap is. Instead it ignores it and lets you set a DC to attempt and then Cloud Jump further modifies Long Jump.
As for your Second point thats entirely up to the GM and the type of campaign they are running. I like my world to feel a bit more consistent but that may not be your style. Legendary to me still has limits. A player is already getting a large boon in being able to ignore most difficult terrain by being able to Long Jump as easily as he can stride (Crazy epic!).
So for the sake of both immersion and balance (and because I honestly do not believe the intention was to make jumping the hands down best means of movement in the game able to easily outpace stride) I'd still go with my 1st interpretation for any game I'd run at my table.
This interpretation also brings the feat combo CLOSE to being in line with having the benefit of a automatic Wind Jump Monk Spell (which is essentially what we are doing in the narrative) but without the cost of a Focus point. Giving the player more than that (almost triple the distance) goes against my gut feeling on this question.
|
|
There still is confusion with your RAW interpretation. The Text under Leap says that the High Jump and Long Jump use the basic leap.
Where are you seeing this text? Nethys doesn't have this in the Leap description https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=81 or are you just saying that the "Leap" phrase is in both Long Jump and High Jump descriptions?
Reading the High Jump and Long Jump a failure says "you leap normally". So I think what they are doing is giving the character the option to attempt a super leap with a check but if you fail this text box on leap defines how you move. Alternatively if you don't want to bother with rolling this is how you move.
We are in agreement here. I was not talking about failures since he stated he would be using Assurance to guarantee a certain score on his athletic checks but yes in the event of a failure they would only horizontally leap the normal distance. An extra 5 feat if they took Powerful Leap feat for some reason.
Powerful Leap says your vertical leap is 5'. Not added five feet but five feet. The Basic Leaps says it is 3 feet so I think this replaces the basic leap. It then says you add five feet to your horizontal leap. This part is ambiguous. I think it is clear that five feet is added to the basic leap so 10 feet is 15 and 15 20. Since it gives a flat amount less than the high jump success roll this part obviously does not apply to the vertical part of the high jump.
We are also in agreement here. I don't think anyone has been talking about vertical leaps but rather horizontal leap movements. If there was confusion on how to handle a high jumper with powerful leaps I would probably look to the part in High Jump that states "This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM." Lowering the DC for a Powerful Leaper would make sense and make it easier to crit success and thus achieve the 8ft Jump (and to also mitigate non-crit fails by basically going the same distance as a normal success). Failure scenarios weren't much discussed because the combo involves Assurance.
This means does it apply to the distance of the long jump? My assumption is it could go either way but since the high jump is not affected then to be consistent the long jump should not be affected either.
In either case Powerful Leap has modified your normal Leap distance. Also in either case the High Jump or Long Jump actions replaces the normal calculation and consideration with a DC you need to make. Also in both cases a failure result (if they choose not to use assurance) would default back to the increased Powerful Leap values if they had taken that feat and normal leap values if they had not.
PS: I am unsure how the stride is 45' (other feats and class abilities??)
He states this in the initial post (elf with some bonus feats for mobility).
So I am not seeing the confusion. This still boils down to whether you believe that Cloud Jump ignores the limitation of Long Jump being capped by your Speed for the one action version of the skill.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Where are you seeing this text? Nethys doesn't have this in the Leap description https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=81 or are you just saying that the "Leap" phrase is in both Long Jump and High Jump descriptions?
There still is confusion with your RAW interpretation. The Text under Leap says that the High Jump and Long Jump use the basic leap.
It's in the Skills section.
The Leap basic action is used for High Jump and Long Jump. Leap lets you take a careful, short jump. You can Leap up to 10 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 15 feet, or up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet. You land in the space where your Leap ends (meaning you can typically clear a 5-foot gap if your Speed is between 15 feet and 30 feet, or a 10-foot gap if your Speed is 30 feet or more). If you make a vertical Leap, you can move up to 3 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally onto an elevated surface.
Cloud Jump Feat 15
GeneralSkill
Source Core Rulebook pg. 260
Prerequisites legendary in Athletics
Your unparalleled athletic skill allows you to jump impossible distances. Triple the distance you Long Jump (so you could jump 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check). When you High Jump, use the calculation for a Long Jump but don’t triple the distance.When you Long Jump or High Jump, you can also increase the number of actions you use (up to the number of actions you have remaining in your turn) to jump even further. For each extra action, add your Speed to the maximum distance you jump.
This seems to imply your speed is already the maximum distance you jump and you can spend actions to increase the maximum if you could otherwise jump farther.
This seems to imply your speed is already the maximum distance you jump and you can spend actions to increase the maximum if you could otherwise jump farther.Cloud Jump Feat 15
GeneralSkill
Source Core Rulebook pg. 260
Prerequisites legendary in Athletics
Your unparalleled athletic skill allows you to jump impossible distances. Triple the distance you Long Jump (so you could jump 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check). When you High Jump, use the calculation for a Long Jump but don’t triple the distance.When you Long Jump or High Jump, you can also increase the number of actions you use (up to the number of actions you have remaining in your turn) to jump even further. For each extra action, add your Speed to the maximum distance you jump.
I read that as "triple the distance" is the maximum distance you jump (specific overriding general) and you can spend actions to increase the distance (w/ no ifs attached).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with Malk_Content. Cloud jump essentially has 2 separate effects. The first triples the distance you can Leap based on the DC that you choose. So the example 60 Feet for a DC 20 check is correct.
However, in Long Jump it sets the "distance" that you can Leap in the first section, and then in a separate sentence states quite clearly that you "can’t Leap farther than your Speed." The first effect of Cloud Jump does nothing to supersede or replace that limitation. That is what the second effect is there for.
Cloud Jump allows you to spend additional actions to add your speed to the total distance that you can jump for each action spent.
So if your speed is 25, you could spend 3 actions and roll a DC 25 Long Jump check to Leap 75 feet total. Or if you wanted to go for a nice long 50 foot Leap, you could instead make a nice easy DC 17 check and only spend 2 actions towards increasing your maximum. Since DC 17 would give you a distance of 51 with Cloud Jump, you could reach your maximum of 50 quite easily.
Essentially Cloud Jump can either let you condense what would be 3 separate Leaps into one mega leap, or let you make impressive leaps with relatively lower DC checks. It appears to help high speed characters much more than lower speed characters, since those characters would likely have more issues making the DC for their maximum speed. But everyone can take advantage of the multi-action Leap to clear some impressive gaps.
Hope that clears things up.
Quick Jump seems like a really good idea with this feat. By letting you ignore the stride requirement of long jump, you could combine all 3 of your actions into one mega jump. Otherwise you could only spend 2 actions on the actual jump distance.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's also apply the "does this sound too good to be true" advice.
I mean. It'd be a nice option but I'm not sure "you can move pretty fast in a straight line across flat surfaces at level 15" is as earth shattering as you're implying it is.
I think the utility of the "triple the distance you jump" thing is lost due to some of the other variables of this particular example.
Imagine a few tweaks:
- The character doesn't have super high strength (a dex rogue, for instance, so maybe just 10 Str)
- The character doesn't have assurance in Athletics
- We'll keep the speed of 45
Suddenly, that 38 Athletics check at level 20 might be anything from 29 (and a downgrade in the check result) to 48 (and an upgrade in the check result).
It might also be helpful to flip the perspective on the math. By tripling the resulting distance, it's *really* reducing the DC the player needs to choose. A DC of 45 gets a -5 for the powerful leap, then can be cut to a third of that because the resulting distance is tripled, so the required check is a 14 (because you'll end up with 3x the distance, a 13 doesn't quite get there). Even a natural 1 gives a success because it's still 10 over. Assurance isn't actually needed at all for long jumps of this character's speed at this point (and most of the time even for the extra action version).
So in short: The triple the distance is really telling you to have the player cut the DC and get better results.
Also, for a level 20 monk elf, they could pretty feasibly have 70 speed, so those numbers still mean something. A DC of 22 isn't an auto-success on that natural 1 anymore (although a few points of strength could do it).
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with Malk_Content. My reading of Cloud Jump does not let you exceed your normal jump maximums without first spending additional actions.
Also, Long Jump and High Jump both reference making Leap attempts as part of their action. Note the capital L in Leap. Things that affect Leap also affect Long Jump and High Jump.
Gummy Bear song.
What blasphemy is this!?
Gummy Bear song.What blasphemy is this!?
Is Gummi = Gummy?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is Gummi = Gummy?Gummy Bear song.What blasphemy is this!?
It's just different dialects for the same thing.
|
|
I agree with Malk_Content. My reading of Cloud Jump does not let you exceed your normal jump maximums without first spending additional actions.
I had a longer post which broke this down, but I accidentally hit cancel instead of preview. Yay hangovers.
But, in short, I am extremely unsympathetic to this reading as it ignores the role of "also" as a subordinate clause in the second paragraph of a two paragraph ability.
You Stride, then make a horizontal Leap and attempt an Athletics check to increase the length of your jump. The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so you’d need to succeed at a DC 20 check to Leap 20 feet). You can’t Leap farther than your Speed.
Your unparalleled athletic skill allows you to jump impossible distances. Triple the distance you Long Jump (so you could jump 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check). When you High Jump, use the calculation for a Long Jump but don’t triple the distance.
Note the bolded section of Cloud Jump is a full and complete sentence with no additional caveats, and presents a example directly paralleling that of a standard Long Jump.
The second paragraph of Cloud Jump is also a subordinate clause, contextualized by the first paragraph.
Without additional modifiers, and assuming a base speed of 25ft, how this would shake out is: Someone Long Jumps after a stride for [>>], they hit DC 20 and jump 60ft instead of 20, they then spend an additional [>] to add their speed to this distance, for a grand total of 85ft.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No cloud jumps second section specifically adds to maximum distance not distance. So under your assumption it does functionally nothing
If the roll states your distance ignoring the previous cap then increasing the maximum distance doesn't matter, you've already broken the rule.
This is where I think your reading is self-defeating. It doesn't do "functionally nothing" it allows you to spend an additional action to gain additional distance. For your reading to make sense it would need to read
For each extra action, add your Speed to the maximum distance you can jump.
rather than the actual wording of
For each extra action, add your Speed to the maximum distance you jump.
It feels like you are you are trying to make the word "maximum" do a lot of work while ignoring the context in which its set.
And if we wish to talk about text doing nothing, your reading makes the entire first paragraph superfluous text (including the literal example it gives), while also ignoring the word "also" being a dependent clause. Which is, once again, an acontextual reading.
Lets look at a different feat for a moment to gain some perspective. The Sudden Leap fighter feat.
Sudden Leap
You make an impressive leap and swing while you soar. Make a Leap, High Jump, or Long Jump and attempt one melee Strike at any point during your jump. Immediately after the Strike, you fall to the ground if you’re in the air, even if you haven’t reached the maximum distance of your jump. If the distance you fall is no more than the height of your jump, you take no damage and land upright.
When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Sudden Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase your maximum distance to double your Speed.
Contrast the wording here and pay attention to the context of the ability as a whole. If Cloud Jump was worded like Sudden Leap, I would 100% agree with you. But it isn't.
Its an instance of a specific ability breaking a general rule.
@ Old_Man_Robot: Long Jump has 2 variables. The "distance" you wish to leap, which you set by choosing a DC for the check, and a "maximum distance" that you can jump which is equal to your land speed.
Cloud Jump alters both, in different ways. The first section alters the calculation required to achieve a specific distance. I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't doing that, after all three times the distance is three times the distance. The second half of Cloud Jump does not mention altering the distance any further, it simply allows you to spend additional actions to add your speed to the total Maximum distance that you can leap during that activity.
Comparing Sudden Leap to Cloud Jump is comparing apples to oranges. Sudden Leap specifically alters the Maximum distance to double your Speed and includes a Strike in the activity without altering the "distance" that you can leap at all. It allows a Fighter to go for a higher DC Leap than they normally could while still striking their opponent. Cloud Jump does none of that. That is pretty simple.
Once again, as much as you believe that Malk is trying to make the word "maximum" do a "lot of work", you are straight ignoring the difference between "distance" and "maximum distance".
Or do you honestly believe that a Speed 25 character should be able to 3 action Cloud Jump 225 Feet?
Give me a breakdown, step by step, of how you see the distance for a Cloud Jump being calculated.
Edit: Or is there no such thing as a Maximum distance when you Cloud Jump?
|
|
Cloud Jump alters both, in different ways. The first section alters the calculation required to achieve a specific distance. I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't doing that, after all three times the distance is three times the distance. The second half of Cloud Jump does not mention altering the distance any further, it simply allows you to spend additional actions to add your speed to the total Maximum distance that you can leap during that activity.
This actually sounds like a different interruption than what Malk_Content is trying to express. At least to me.
It sounds like we are in agreement that, with Cloud Jump, if you make your DC 20 check, you to jump 60ft.
Malk_Content is arguing that is not the case. His version of Cloud Jump means that the first paragraph increases your potential distance but still caps it at your speed, it then requires the second paragraph and additional actions, to get you to that distance.
Honestly I'm fine with your version of the second paragraph, it works within the context of the first.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cloud Jump alters both, in different ways. The first section alters the calculation required to achieve a specific distance. I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't doing that, after all three times the distance is three times the distance. The second half of Cloud Jump does not mention altering the distance any further, it simply allows you to spend additional actions to add your speed to the total Maximum distance that you can leap during that activity.This actually sounds like a different interruption than what Malk_Content is trying to express. At least to me.
It sounds like we are in agreement that, with Cloud Jump, if you make your DC 20 check, you to jump 60ft.
Malk_Content is arguing that is not the case. His version of Cloud Jump means that the first paragraph increases your potential distance but still caps it at your speed, it then requires the second paragraph and additional actions, to get you to that distance.
Honestly I'm fine with your version of the second paragraph, it works within the context of the first.
You've lost me. Or perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
An Example of my interpretation of Cloud Jump in action:
Let's say that you are a Human with no Speed altering equipment (not likely given the level you have to be for Cloud Jump, but it could happen.) so you have a Speed of 25. You have to clear a 40 foot wide chasm to save a princess who was previously determined to be in a different castle.
You attempt to Long Jump. You determine that you need a DC 40 check, which would be pretty difficult, even for your mighty Athletic Prowess. But you have Cloud Jump so instead of the DC being calculated on a 1 for 1 basis, it is actually a 3 for 1. Now instead of a difficult DC 40 Athletics check, you are looking at a practically auto pass DC 14 minimum to make your Leap across that chasm.
Now you look at Long Jump and find to your dismay that you can only Leap up to your speed and no further. Cloud Jump up to this point has done nothing to address that, so you suppose the Princess will just have to marry a turtle/dragon.
But lo, what is this? There is a second portion to Cloud Jump. You can spend additional actions to add your Speed to the maximum distance that you can Leap with Cloud Jump for each action spent! Doing the math rapidly in your head you determine that it will take two actions to give you a new Maximum distance of 50 to clear the Chasm.
And so our hero spends two actions and passes a DC 14 Athletics check to Leap valiantly across the chasm and slay the dragon/turtle.
But what is this? A toadstool where the Princess should have been? You have been tricked again. (To be continued the next time I need a colorful example.)
In short you cannot automatically jump 60 feet with a DC 20 check using Cloud Jump if your speed is less than 60. In order to make that Leap, you would need to spend the requisite actions with the Second portion of Cloud Jump to increase your Maximum Distance to match. For a Speed 25 character, this means 3 actions to Leap 60 feet.
|
|
This is highly implausible.
You have invented a wholly unique inverse-scaling DC system which is not present in any other aspect of the game. From what I can find every other effect modifies checks after the DC has been set through bonuses or penalties (in some cases replacing with a flat check), not by retroactively altering the DC itself post initial calculation.
After re-reading CRB pages 503-504 I can find no mention of effects that work in the way you describe.
not by retroactively altering the DC itself post initial calculation.
So you're saying that in order to jump 60 feet, you need to make a DC 60 check, at which point you actually jump 180 feet?
(Contrary to the actual rules which say "in order to jump 60 feet you make a DC 20 check")
Yes, yes I did. Because I have no idea who or what point you're replying to. :|
|
|
Yes, yes I did. Because I have no idea who or what point you're replying to. :|
Dude, there's been a pretty direct back and forth here. Context.
beowulf99 was positing a system where you downgrade the DC after its been set and you apply your modifiers, rather than set the initial DC lower to meet the desired distance. I was saying that nothing does that.
Yes, yes I did. Because I have no idea who or what point you're replying to. :|Dude, there's been a pretty direct back and forth here. Context.
beowulf99 was positing a system where you downgrade the DC after its been set and you apply your modifiers, rather than set the initial DC lower to meet the desired distance. I was saying that nothing does that.
So this bit:
You attempt to Long Jump. You determine that you need a DC 40 check, which would be pretty difficult, even for your mighty Athletic Prowess. But you have Cloud Jump so instead of the DC being calculated on a 1 for 1 basis, it is actually a 3 for 1. Now instead of a difficult DC 40 Athletics check, you are looking at a practically auto pass DC 14 minimum to make your Leap across that chasm.
To which I replied:
So what you (Old Man Robot) are saying is that in order to jump 60 feet, you need to make a DC 60 check, at which point you actually jump 180 feet?
i.e. from beowulf's 40 foot jump, he'd still need to make a 40 DC in order to jump 40 feet because Cloud Jump triples the result afterwards rather than reducing the DC before hand.
Your (Old Man Robot) point to beowulf is that he can't "reduce" the DC to 14.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The second half of Cloud Jump does not mention altering the distance any further
How is adding your speed to the distance you jump not altering the distance?
|
|
Setting the dc and tripling it to get the distance and picking the distance and then dividing by 3 have exactly the same outcome... and long jump specifically works by selecting how far you want to go and driving the dc from that.
I agree. The math is going to wind up the same. A player or gm when calculating Long Jump DC for a player with the Cloud Jump feat is just going to end up dividing the DC because that's just logically how reversing engineering something involving multiplication works. Its not a new mechanic just something we are doing as mental shorthand.
I feel like we're still returning to the root of the question which is "Does Cloud Jump let me ignore the rule on Long Jump that states I cannot jump further than my speed." I, Malk_Content and beowulf69 are siding on the side of no it does not. That ruling to me seems to fit more in line with the bounds of the game, still gives the PC a great benefit, and also aligns more closely to several spells (like Jump, and Wind Jump)in the game. Not to mention the too good to be true rule.
Because of the vagueness of the Cloud Jump example (it does not specify the movement speed of the character or any other boundaries). The biggest argument I can see in favor of the more permissive interpretation of the rule is that it would be fun/funny to jump over 100ft at a time. Which may actually be the right choice for certain tables lol.
|
|
The second half of Cloud Jump does not mention altering the distance any furtherHow is adding your speed to the distance you jump not altering the distance?
Remember he is not talking about adding your speed. He is talking about adding your speed to the maximum you can jump. Which makes perfect sense to me in context with how the first half of the skill works.
Remember he is not talking about adding your speed. He is talking about adding your speed to the maximum you can jump.
The feat doesn't say 'can jump' though. It just says add your speed to the maximum distance you jump. It's the same language the long jump action itself uses.
If you jump 15 feet and you have a speed of 40, spending an action on Cloud Jump turns it into a 55 foot jump, or a 95 foot jump with two actions.