# Maximum Bulk When Overburdened?

### Rules Questions

 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Where is the maximum bulk defined that a PC can carry in the overburdened condition in Starfinder?

Unencumbered: up to 1/2 strength
Encumbered: up to total strength
Overburdened: greater than total strength...to what maximum bulk? 5x strength?

For example, Unseen Servant states: "It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift up to 20 pounds or 2 bulk or drag up to 100 pounds or 10 bulk)."

I didn't see anything in the FAQ about this issue and there don't seem to be any errata or updates. I tried searching the forums, but no luck there either.

Where are the drag, lift overhead, etc. limits as in PF?

Eh ?

I cannot find that anywhere, just that a character cannot voluntarily have more Bulk than STR and only move 5 feet when Overburdened ...

I think the superpower "Common Sense" is needed here for both player and GM : we have ways to guesstimate how much volume and weight 1 Bulk is, access to Google and some basic math ...

If 1 Bulk = 5 to 10 pounds (Core page 167), STR 18 means Encumbered at 90 pounds and Overburdened at 180+ pounds ... it doesn't look like much, but a character can still move 5 feet per 6 seconds carrying that much, and they are not Weighlifter Champions just lifting things ...

I thought that the Athletics skill would help, but it's only climb/leap/swim ...

Maybe take inspiration from the Cargo Lifter powered armour (Core page 204) that get STR 20 and can carry 10 more Bulk than normal ?
Something like 10 more Bulk than Overburdened = cannot move, needs STR check each round to continue hoisting, more than that and muscles tear + bones break ?

 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Thanks. The Cargo Lifter armor is an interesting item, but doesn't solve the problem of the missing definition.

I want to know the spec for the exact maximum bulk in the Overburdened condition and the only tangential reference appears to be from Technomancer:Unseen Servant, as above.

So, there needs to be an official ruling from Paizo...or if someone can point to an official reference somewhere (other than Unseen Servant, if there is one). This information should have been included in the CRB and should be extremely easy to provide...or confirm (if really intended to be 5x STR).

Also, as above, there doesn't seem to be anything about lifting overhead, pushing, dragging, etc. These actions are straight cross-overs from Pathfinder and need specifications.

Otherwise, cool. My PC is overburdened and doesn't mind a move of 5', so he drags his spaceship around with him when not flying it because there's no stated overburdened maximum. ^_^ Honey - I Shrunk the Encumbrance!

I agree with you !

I don't know the Pathfinder rules, but yes, a clear maximum is really needed to avoid dragging Absalom Station out of orbit by towing it at 5 feet per 6 seconds ... reads like something stupid, but I know my group of players ...

Back in the nineties, with AD&D2 and that group, I had to give treasure by weight and volume, and make doubly sure that nothing ridiculously heavy could fit in a Bag of Holding, up to having a custom-made canvas bag of the right dimensions with me and telling them to try to fit the bookcase in it ...

I've flagged your original post for FAQ (and fumbled my fingers with the options too) ...

There is no maximum bulk when overburdened nor does there need to be.

The rule is quite specific that you cannot be voluntarily overburdened.

So in the example above, no you cannot drag your spaceship or Absalom Station around as that is a voluntary action.

The only time you can be overburdened is when you get hit with an effect that reduces your strength score.

You can not lift, carry, push, pull, etc. anything over your strength score. That is RAW.

And what happens if/when the characters want to drag something heavy but sensible like a file cabinet to block a doorway, for example ?

My group of players get creative when they want to "build the terrain" in combat encounters, putting silly antics aside, knowing how much they could drag/lift would help me ...

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Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

There is no maximum bulk when overburdened nor does there need to be.

The rule is quite specific that you cannot be voluntarily overburdened.

So in the example above, no you cannot drag your spaceship or Absalom Station around as that is a voluntary action.

The only time you can be overburdened is when you get hit with an effect that reduces your strength score.

You can not lift, carry, push, pull, etc. anything over your strength score. That is RAW.

Respectfully, that seems more like your interpretation of RAI rather than RAW. The CRB provides no information about pushing, pulling, dragging, etc. and the notion that a PC can't move anything over their strength X 10 (in lbs.) is not really tenable (either from a real-world perspective, or in particular, because the max load spec is missing and there is content that infers otherwise).

SF CRB p. 167 wrote:
"You can’t voluntarily wear or hold an amount of bulk that is greater than your Strength score.

Wearing and holding is not pushing, pulling and/or dragging and makes no comment about the maximum limit in the overburdened state. There is an omission in the carrying capacity rules that warrants attention.

[0 to .5x][>.5x to 1x][>1x to ???]

There is another possible clue in the environmental hazards section on Extreme Gravity.

Extreme Gravity p. 402 wrote:
"A planet where the gravity is at least five times as strong as standard gravity is extremely dangerous to most creatures."

So...again...beyond 5x is the maximum limit. Extreme gravity hazards, however, do not really apply when pushing, pulling or dragging something in normal gravity...but they appear to share a 5x maximum.

In addition, the Unseen Servant spell exactly states the maximum at 5x STR (which is familiar and straight out of the Pathfinder rules...as is Unseen Servant).

Pathfinder Rules wrote:
"A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load."

This issue would certainly benefit from a statement from Paizo that addresses and clarifies the missing rules definitions relating to Carrying Capacity and related actions (pushing, pulling, dragging, etc.). In those cases, PCs act on an object at rest tangentially vs. gravity, rather than directly attempting to oppose gravity by carrying or holding something on their person.

I strongly suspect the correct, intended answer is "There is no formal limit on maximum lift/pull/push capacity. The GM rules on reasonableness."

So, you know, the blasphemous heretical answer.

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Lorcryst wrote:

And what happens if/when the characters want to drag something heavy but sensible like a file cabinet to block a doorway, for example ?

Heavy but sensible = file cabinet = yes

Heavy but not sensible = a starship = no

It is up to you to define sensible for your players.

@Holognome

My bad, I missed the wear or hold part of the carrying capacity statement.

I think that the unseen servant entry could be used as a guideline but being able to push 5 times what can carry is a bit excessive to me (and I thought that way about it in PFRPG also).

I can carry 100 pounds, but I do not believe I could push or drag 500.

I think Metaphysician is correct in saying it is not in there so that it can be left up to individual GMs to decide.

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Thx, guys. Yeah...I don't know. Some official clarity on this issue would be helpful. Also, if, perhaps, Unseen Servant is vestigial and escaped Starfinder conversion editing, then why repeat the 5x for Extreme Gravity?

The easiest answer is probably just to bring the 5x rule forward from Pathfinder (even if possibly high as Hawk states), because there doesn't seem to be a downside of doing that and the base rules already imply it.

So, options might be:
1. Make one, simple clarification that everyone already understands, treats as familiar and is consistent with existing SF CRB rule definitions.
2. Reject it and then have to address 2 areas where the rules no longer align (Unseen Servant and Extreme Gravity).
3. Do nothing (as Metaphysician says) and force GMs to define something that the rules should have clearly defined (and that has always been defined in the past without any major issues).

If the answer is really #3, then it's probably a 5x Society house rule anyway...or at least it would be at my table. And, I care about this issue, because there is also no clean way to define a digital ruleset for software like Fantasy Grounds without a spec for the upper limit of Overburdened.

Can we spin a giant wheel of Paizo probability? Does Chuck Woolery fit in a space suit? Giant bugs that are too big for Exo-Guardians to collect and drag back to a starship have overrun planet Klendathu. Do you want to know more?

Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

Heavy but sensible = file cabinet = yes

Heavy but not sensible = a starship = no

It is up to you to define sensible for your players.

Well, yes, for my own home games. And I have no trouble doing that.

But this is also the first time I'm involved in a "Massively Multiplayer Offline Campaign", I'm thinking of joining a club IRL for the first time this millenium and I want to promote Organised Guild Play in my side of Belgium ...

All that made me think about other players and GMs, and the very real need for a clear and definite ruling so that everyone worldwide can have the same foundation.

It's not just me and old friends anymore ...

@HoloGnome: Just so you know, official clarification on anything in these forums is somewhat rare. It's even more rare to get such clarification when the answer is going to be anything relating to common sense.

The common sense answer being "Of course you can't drag a spaceship, that's ridiculous."

Lastly, Starfinder falls apart pretty quick when you start trying to compare 'real life' to the game. To the point where a lot of rules that are actually written down don't work so well if you try to apply your actual knowledge of physics, etc.

The only way to get official clarification is to post it here. Without that, nothing will change. With it, maybe something will, rare or not. But, this issue requires attention.

And, my spaceship example was obviously intended as hyperbole to make a point.

Unfortunately, common sense doesn't make up for the missing (and required) definition for the upper level of encumbrance.

There could also be a case for 2x STR in the lift-off-the-ground and stagger around mode. Regardless, the upper limit needs definition.

The problem with defining maximum bulk will have just as many problems as not defining it.

In Starfinder bulk does not translate directly to weight.

Pathfinder used weight for carrying capacity, not bulk.

SFRPG page 167 wrote:

Carrying capacity is based on the bulk of items, which accounts for both their weight

and their unwieldiness.

And their in lies the problem with defining it. Not all items weighing the same have the same bulk.

So using your earlier filing cabinet example. Lets say it weights 300 pounds. What is its bulk? I don't know, you don't know and the players don't know. But it is reasonable to assume 1 or 2 players can slide it into place.

Nice and easy.

Now lets say only thing handy is 457 10.5 ounce bags of marshmallows (also 300 pounds) that are somehow all connected in a cube. I might have to rule no because it is bulkier that the filing cabinet.

Or we can get sillier and state 136,200 average weight (about .03 ounces each) feathers in a giant pillow. The average 18" x 18" pillow has about a pound and a half of feathers in it. So we are talking about a volume of 200 pillows. I am gonna say nope too bulky to be moved easily and quickly.

There are just too many variable with regards to bulk to make a catch all rule feasible.

I think that if this does get commented on officially, I think that they will say its a GMs call.

Edit: I took a peek at the gravity rules and sure enough they only mention items weight being affected by high low gravity. They don't mention bulk at all. Sigh........

If it is possible to define the start of encumbered, the end of encumbered, and the start of overburdened with respect to bulk, it is possible to define the maximum overburdened state with respect to bulk (or weight)...and it is a significant failing of the rules not to do so.

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HoloGnome wrote:
If it is possible to define the start of encumbered, the end of encumbered, and the start of overburdened with respect to bulk, it is possible to define the maximum overburdened state with respect to bulk (or weight)...and it is a significant failing of the rules not to do so.

There is no upper end to overburdened. Once you are overburdened you are overburdened. Whether you are 1 light item over your strength or 1000 bulk over your strength your are overburdened. It does not mattered how much.

As you clearly pointed out earlier the bulk limit rules only applies to what you are carrying and holding.

You can lift exactly your strength score up off the ground and carry it. Period. You can no lift more than this, not even 1mm off the ground. Because you cannot be voluntarily be overburdened. Whether they can push or pull it is up to the GM. No failing off the rules here. Sorry just not.

It does not apply to pushing or pulling things. This is not Pathfinder. Please stop trying to add Pathfinder concepts into Starfinder.

There are thousands of things not covered by the rules that will come up in the course of the game. It is the job of the GM to make a ruling on things not covered by the rules.

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HoloGnome wrote:
But, this issue requires attention.

I have to disagree. Of all the things that could use attention, this one is, to me, very far down on the list.

There is a big difference in carrying something and shoving a file cabinet around. 2 totally different things. If you throw someone over your shoulder to get them out of the line of fire, you can move but obviously not quickly or for a huge distance. But pushing an object can be done in several different ways. For example, a lot of stores use cardboard balers for empty boxes. The bales come out weighing a few hundred pounds. One or two people can scoot or flop/roll them a short distance but it is slow going. So your characters could move something like that 1 square per full turn to make a barricade or try to take it with them.

Wingblaze wrote:
HoloGnome wrote:
But, this issue requires attention.
I have to disagree. Of all the things that could use attention, this one is, to me, very far down on the list.

It sound like you and others who agree with you don't use a digital/VTT ruleset that has no valid upper bounds for the overburdened condition. I agree with you that it doesn't require a lot of discussion, because it is an extremely simple problem to fix.

And, it's not applying Pathfinder to Starfinder (OK...well maybe it is, but isn't that how the entire ruleset was created?). What...in space, you can't push or pull anything, so, of course, there's no rule for it? Yes, there are many circumstances and variations that GMs manage in every flavor of RPG, but that has always been true and doesn't preclude providing adequate endpoint definitions for the RPG ruleset. There are 3 bulk/CC categories and each one needs 2 defined endpoints.

So, what's the upper limit? There has to be one beyond which you cannot move, push, pull or drag something, and it's called out in Unseen Servant and the Gravity rules. Are those really the only 2 places where something can be defined? It also applies to being involuntarily overburdened through whatever circumstance (gravity being the obvious one, where 5x is the implied limit). You can stagger around in high gravity involuntarily overburdened at MOVE:5, and at 5x, it begins to crush you.

I understand that you can't be voluntarily overburdened, but that's not the issue here. That circumstance only applies to holding or carrying something and not pushing, pulling or dragging.

So, hopefully someone will fix this easy-to-fix problem and FAQ it. Is it a difficult task to add one FAQ sentence that says the upper limit once overburdened (or to push, pull or drag an object) is 5x STR or 2X STR or whatever it is? What's the downside? There is none. It provides necessary structure for VTT rulesets and also baseline structure for GMs.

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HoloGnome wrote:

So, what's the upper limit? There has to be one beyond which you cannot move, push, pull or drag something, and it's called out in Unseen Servant and the Gravity rules. Are those really the only 2 places where something can be defined?

Considering that these two examples mention weight and not bulk (which is what the SFRPG uses) these two references to weight may be in error.

Keep in mind that the editing in the ruleset is somewhat suspect and there are scores of contradictions and things that just don't make sense.

HoloGnome wrote:

It also applies to being involuntarily overburdened through whatever circumstance (gravity being the obvious one, where 5x is the implied limit). You can stagger around in high gravity involuntarily overburdened at MOVE:5, and at 5x, it begins to crush you.

Look at the gravity rules again. The implied limit is actually 2x as written. The weight increase is only mentioned in high gravity. There is no mention of any weight increase in extreme gravity, in fact it even states you take the high gravity penalties plus take damage.

Another example of possible editing issues.

HoloGnome wrote:

I understand that you can't be voluntarily overburdened, but that's not the issue here. That circumstance only applies to holding or carrying something and not pushing, pulling or dragging.

Correct it is not an issue with the overburdened condition as overburdened only applies to items you are carrying or holding.

The overburdened condition has nothing to do with pushing, pulling or dragging limits.

HoloGnome wrote:

So, hopefully someone will fix this easy-to-fix problem and FAQ it. Is it a difficult task to add one FAQ sentence that says the upper limit once overburdened (or to push, pull or drag an object) is 5x STR or 2X STR or whatever it is? What's the downside? There is none. It provides necessary structure for VTT rulesets and also baseline structure for GMs.

It is most likely not going to be fixed as it not broken.

It is undefined and left for each GM to decide what is reasonable.

Just as the GM must decide things like: "What is proper etiquette at a vesk brothel?

Is tipping expected or acceptable at a Kasatha run bar and grille?

Is the accuracy of laser rifle compromised if a PC uses it more as a club and only occasionally fires it?

If you need numbers for you computer plug them in and move on. Simple and done.

Inform your players and let them push, pull and drag their way across the galaxy.

Thanks. I see what you're saying, and I think it needs clarification at the upper end. By definition, bulk includes size and weight and there's a huge gray area there. Some of the gray is OK and some of it isn't. And, GM discretion is always a required tool in every game.

Your reference to 2x comes from the rules for High Gravity, and I have seen those. But, unfortunately, the 2x rules don't really hold up with the encumbered condition. Since Bulk is supposed to account for size and weight, if you are at the upper limit of unencumbered and gravity is suddenly 2x, then you are now obviously encumbered or worse and maybe all the definition for half move, etc. makes no sense. This is certainly an area where GMs reasonable have to apply common-sense adjudication.

Anyway, I consider the whole bulk/weight/missing upper limit/gravity inter-relationship thing to be a rules deficit that needs fixing and clarification. If Paizo wants to fix it, great. Hopefully, they will. Otherwise, after poring over whatever I can find in the SF CRB and considering Pathfinder and what I think is reasonable as a GM, at my tables, my GM interpretation/adjudication will likely be as follows:

1. Maximum Overburdened limit is 2x STR. It is not infinitely open-ended. Until that 2x point, when becoming unintentionally overburdened, you can stagger around at 5'/rnd, etc. as in the rules (including Pathfinder rules for lifting things off the ground).
2. From 2x-5x GRAVITY, you operate per the defined High Gravity rules, assuming you have not become Overburdened. Otherwise, Overburdened kicks in and you use a simple gravity multiplier (see #8 below).
3. If unintentionally overburdened beyond 2x STR, then the only action you can take is to try to unburden yourself and/or cast spells, etc. Other directional movement is not possible because you are burdened with items that you simply cannot move. But, there are no other harmful effects.
4. Beyond 5x STR, you are pinned as per the Pinned condition and begin to take non-lethal damage as per the Extreme Gravity rules. As per Pinned, you can try an Acrobatics check (standard action) to try to unencumber yourself. As a GM, I would provisionally use a DC that is the bulk of the item x the excess STR multiplier. For example, to escape your full Consumer Backpack (no longer ideally worn, so 1 + 2 bulk inside) of 3 bulk in a situation where you are in the ~5x STR category, it would be DC15. Or, you could try to dump smaller individual items with easier DCs to race against the cumulating non-lethal damage until you can at least get below 5x STR and move 5' again to escape the hazard (if possible). Then, you could try to drag out the gear you shed. Armor might present an interesting challenge because of the time it takes to remove it (heavy armor = 16 rounds, for example).
5. PCs can push, pull or drag objects up to a max of 5x STR (as per Unseen Servant and PF rules) and can work together to accomplish some goal.
6. Stationary objects beyond 5x (possibly combined) PC STR are not pullable, pushable, draggable.
7. Stationary objects from 2x-5x PC STR can be pushed, pulled or dragged at 5'/rnd, but PCs cannot lift, hold or carry them or become voluntarily overburdened (as per the rules).
8. Gravity is a simple multiplier as it affects the weight of objects and the above rules. And, the multipliers above apply to either measures of weight or bulk, since the rules, unfortunately, do not clearly delineate the boundary or conversion and equivocate in their presentation.
9. If a heavy/bulky object falls on a PC, apply the above rules. Depending on the STR multiplier, the PC might be able to push it away (but not lift, hold or carry it), or might need to have others drag, pull or push the object away. Otherwise, if the object is > 5x PC STR, apply the High Gravity non-lethal damage rules until the PC escapes or receives other aid.

I'm not interested in rules ambiguity (or other extensive rules lookups or debates) at the table when I'm GMing. I want the focus to be on the fun, the action, the RP, and the teamwork, and I think it's important to set player expectations before the game starts. The above is extremely fair, reasonable and within the lines...and, more importantly, I see it as necessary to cover the cases where upper limits might occur and where the SF CRB does not include the rules definition. So, maybe it will be of use to others if you have the same questions I do and/or feel the need to resolve this issue.

Thanks to all. I appreciate the technical discussion, and I think I have come to whatever conclusions I can to help me better prepare for all environmental circumstances as a Starfinder GM.

@HoloGnome

The above is well thought out and I hope it works for you.

It does not solve ambiguity however. It is actually increased.

The vast majority of items that your PCs may want to push, drag or pull have no defined bulk.

So you still are going to have to adjudicate way more than I feel is needed.

Because of the following short list of undefined bulks:

What is the bulk of?

1. metal 3 door filing cabinet
2. adamantine 2 door filing cabinet
3. a Dwarven 4 door granite filing cabinet
4. an elven glade oak 6 door filing cabinet
5. A mithril bathtub
6. An obsidian bust of Commander Shepherd
7. etc, etc, etc, etc

Additionally you are not factoring in terrain effects. Is it easier to slide something across a sheet of ice than loose sand? Yes and it is not defined using your house rules.

I feel that you may have no shortage of arguments over the bulk of items that are undefined in the rule book.

Far easier to me to not define it and use GM reasonableness.

Additionally by making this definition you are opening up a hole can of worms with regards to the bull rush and repositioning.

If a 60+ bulk uplifted bear PC who is standing and not resisting in any way cannot be pushed, pulled or dragged by his strength 12 teammate, then how can it be justified that a 12 strength mook can reposition / bull rush him, when he is actively resisting?

Defining bulk as you insist makes it impossible to move large bulky creatures via reposition / bull rush.

I would absolutely argue it as a player.

I also agree that rule look ups and rules debate are no fun at the table, so it is basically banned at the table. I make a ruling based on my knowledge / interpretation of the rules and common sense, period. Debate and look ups can be done during a break or after the we are done for the night.

I wish you luck with your game.

Honestly, because of the failure of the SF CRB to adequately define the upper end of Overburdened state, I really don't care too much about bulk when it comes to the corner cases or spontaneous or creative player actions. If the PCs want to move something and it fits reasonably into the above framework, whether or not it has exactly defined bulk doesn't matter. It will be a straight 1 bulk = 10 lb. conversion...maaaybe tempered with similar objects that are defined (if they are), and I don't foresee any major issues or game stoppers. Bulk is a good idea, but it still needs more time in the designer space oven.

The list in my earlier post is just a framework that puts an upper cap on Overburdened and synchronizes that solution with whatever sparse clues the rules provide. It removes, rather than adds, ambiguity.

Hawk wrote:
Defining bulk as you insist makes it impossible to move large bulky creatures via reposition / bull rush.

Aha! Interesting point. But, I see no conflict there. It's clear that SF has eliminated all the size rules, except for very specific things...like what you can run over with a vehicle or how you can disguise yourself. And, unfortunately, just like Overburdened, there is no reasonable cap on the upper end of combat maneuvers. So...another (annoying) rules oversight. The cap should be 1 size category larger as in PF.

However, what SF has that PF doesn't is local gravity effects. So, there will be cases where physical size takes a backseat to other effects that might...manipulate an object or creature. I'm really excited to see how those kinds of things play out.

Anyway - the starting point would be, as above, if you want to bull rush, then the opponent can be no more than 1 size category larger (but with other effect calculations, as the situation warrants). Beyond that, smaller vs. larger was fair game in PF, so it's fair game in SF. Some of the funniest games have been when a smaller creature tries to CMB a larger one...and there are a lot of ways to explain that situation. If you want the space example, imagine Yoda beating the lightsaber daylights out of some larger opponent.

With the elimination of size effects came the elimination of PC-based Trample, Overrun, etc. I think only vehicles can run things over and the rules do specify the size at 2 categories smaller (hmm...oddly specific). And, monsters can trample (one size category smaller - another clue about CMB and size) -- but not PCs (and monsters get multiple attacks and PCs only get 2).

So...back to your hypothetical - your 60 bulk uplifted bear is large and weighs 600+ lbs. He's so big...and the teeth!! (PSA: Remember...you may not intentionally overburden yourself by trying to uplift a bear when already encumbered! ^_^ ). My medium bull rusher charges him, leaps up acrobatically, grabs and twists his fluffy little bear ears, sending him into vestibular spasms and a resulting ursine dizzy spell so disorienting that it causes him to stumble backwards 5' and let out a horrendous Solarian growl. Or, maybe I twisted his ears so well, he falls back an extra 5'. But, it was hard, because I had to beat his KAC+8+5.

Just an example.

As a GM, I will probably cap CMBs at 1 size category larger, but with a cross-calculation with gravity. Living bulk is less of an issue. Every living thing has weak spots for smaller creatures to exploit. And be careful not to mix metaphors. Discussions of PCs vs. static/inanimate objects is not the same thing as direct PC to NPC combat. The difference between inanimate bulk and the bulk of creature is that there are things you can do to creatures to make their bulk respond - trick them, outwit them, annoy or hamper them, acrobaticize them, etc., none of which works on a static, unattended object.

Haha, Backpack! I tumble bull rush your pockets!

HoloGnome wrote:
Honestly, because of the failure of the SF CRB to adequately define the upper end of Overburdened state

For the love of the gods.....

There is no need for an upper limit to overburdened state.

One last time: you voluntarily cannot be overburdened.

Overburdened is only applies to items you are carrying or holding.

Certainly if you are pushing, pulling or dragging something you are not carrying it.

So overburdened rules do not apply here.

If the GM states that yes in fact you are holding on object when you are pushing, pulling or dragging it then overburdened rules do apply and you are capped by your STR score.

If the GM states that you are not really holding it (ie lifting) then the overburdened rules do not apply.

Since the rule as written seems to mean nothing to you I shall move along.

Have continued success at gaming.

Thanks - you too. Everything is explained in earlier posts and there does need to be an upper limit.