Vanguard - Strength or Dex Build.


Advice


Fiddling around with a Vanguard build and can't decide on Strength/Con/Heavy Armor Build vs DEX/CON/Light Armor Build.

At moment I'm leaning more to the Str/Con/Heavy Armor Build. Grabbing a 2handed Reach weapon for AO while using Entropic Strike while in melee.

Seeking opinions if this would work compared to going Dex.


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Since the Entropic Strike is an Operative weapon and you use Con for damage, there is very little reason to go Str at all. Dex is your to-hit and your AC, and it is actually useful in starship combat (sorry new First Mate sharship role).

Since you start with proficiency, you don't need extra str to qualify for heavy armor, and unlike the playtest, vanguards don't get Str to damage at 10th level (even then, you were better off going for Dex and then buying power armor at 10th level).


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Thought you still needed 13 Strength to equip the Heavy Armor


The entropic weapon is so low damage I’m not sure a strength build with a purchased weapon isn’t better for most combat.


Matt2VK wrote:
Thought you still needed 13 Strength to equip the Heavy Armor

No, you need 13 strength to buy and qualify for the feat. If you have proficiency from your class, the way I read it is that you don't need to retain the qualifications to use the item.


Xenocrat wrote:
The entropic weapon is so low damage I’m not sure a strength build with a purchased weapon isn’t better for most combat.

That's kind of how I've been looking at it. At least till I have 3+ entropic points to spend on damage.

Dataphiles

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Mechanically, Dex/Con is a stronger build.


"Dr." Cupi wrote:
Mechanically, Dex/Con is a stronger build.

How/why? Offensively I’d be very surprised if DPR calculations support that. It would be hard to say given the multitude of factors that the marginal crowd control and survivability benefits of pure dex/con are clearly superior to the DPR of an advanced weapon and str.


Even if you go Str/Con, you probably still need some Dex; I know Vanguards like to get hit for dem Entropy Points, but you still probably don't want to get hit by every attack. That leads to some MAD going on. Dex is more efficient; you can afford to entirely ignore Str.

Plus, in space combat, a Str Vanguard gets to be a good Chief Mate, while a Dex Vanguard gets to be one of the best Gunners (i.e. the single most important role on the ship, Pilot notwithstanding).


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Why not a dex con 11 strength build, and at level 10 you up your str to 13 and get powered armor? Then you have str from the power armor and con into your damage


I think Con to damage is probably overwhelmed by the damage of a two handed advanced weapon.

I’ll admit the intent of the class is that you’re supposed to be a durable crowd control who does consistent but relatively light damage (entropy point expenditures aside). But if you want more consistent damage it’s available and not through your entropic strike.


Dracomicron wrote:


Plus, in space combat, a Str Vanguard gets to be a good Chief Mate, while a Dex Vanguard gets to be one of the best Gunners (i.e. the single most important role on the ship, Pilot notwithstanding).

Just wanted to point out that a high Dex vanguard could still be a good chief mate if they really wanted. All chief mate activities from what I remember reading are doable with both athletics and acrobatics, meaning both strength and dex are equally viable for that role.

Sovereign Court

Dracomicron wrote:
Since you start with proficiency, you don't need extra str to qualify for heavy armor, and unlike the playtest, vanguards don't get Str to damage at 10th level (even then, you were better off going for Dex and then buying power armor at 10th level).

You still get it, but I think it got moved around:

COM p. 52, Entropic Strike wrote:
At 1st level, your entropic strike deals damage equal to 1d3 + your Constitution modifier, but you do not add your Strength modifier (unlike most melee attacks). For each attack, you can deal acid damage, bludgeoning damage, or both. This damage increases as you gain levels (see Table 2–2: Vanguard). At 10th level, you also add your Strength modifier to the damage of your entropic strike. At 5th level, when you use any combat maneuver for which you have Improved Combat Maneuver, you can target a foe’s EAC + 8 (rather than KAC + 8) to determine success, and you also determine the level of success (such as how far you push a foe with a successful bull rush) using EAC.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:
Since you start with proficiency, you don't need extra str to qualify for heavy armor, and unlike the playtest, vanguards don't get Str to damage at 10th level (even then, you were better off going for Dex and then buying power armor at 10th level).

You still get it, but I think it got moved around:

COM p. 52, Entropic Strike wrote:
At 1st level, your entropic strike deals damage equal to 1d3 + your Constitution modifier, but you do not add your Strength modifier (unlike most melee attacks). For each attack, you can deal acid damage, bludgeoning damage, or both. This damage increases as you gain levels (see Table 2–2: Vanguard). At 10th level, you also add your Strength modifier to the damage of your entropic strike. At 5th level, when you use any combat maneuver for which you have Improved Combat Maneuver, you can target a foe’s EAC + 8 (rather than KAC + 8) to determine success, and you also determine the level of success (such as how far you push a foe with a successful bull rush) using EAC.

I missed that, thanks!


I also missed that too.

Been debating with myself between the STR vs DEX build and I think that's pretty much made up my mind going STR with Heavy Armor.

Sovereign Court

I think they're pretty well balanced against each other right now:

STR
+ Heavy armor gives slightly higher AC
+ Athletics is a good skill
+ More versatility with other weapons
+ Use thrown weapons which have good static (Str) damage

DEX
+ Better for space combat
+ More Dex driven skills
+ Better for saves, Evasion is a thing
+ Switch over to power armor using level 5 and 10 boosts to Strength
+ Use Double Tap or pick up Longarm proficiency to get longer ranged options than a thrown build

They both seem viable and neither really dominates the other.


How does strength work with weapons that con wouldn't/better than con would?

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:
How does strength work with weapons that con wouldn't/better than con would?

If you want to use the weapon's damage dice/damage type, you're not using entropic strike, so no Con to damage.


Entropic Strike (CON) vs Regular Weapon (STR) damage

I believe, haven't done math, that regular attacks with regular weapon die damage is better. At least till you have about 2+ EP points to spend upping the number of die damage for attack damage.

Really need someone with math skills to run the numbers for us.


I don’t think it’s necessarily an either-or decision, since you can boost multiple ability scores over your character’s career. A vanguard can end up with great scores in both Strength and Dexterity.

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