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I have a few questions, or concerns about swashbucklers as they are currently.
While I don't necessarily like that Panache generation is tied to the non-primary stat (Intimidation, Deception, Grapple/Shove/Trip) it isn't that big of a deal. Although I think Gymnasts should get a "Add the Finesse trait to the Grapple/Shove/Trip actions" so they can use Dex for them as things are currently.
The main thing is that Gymnast's are the only Style that get negatively impacted even if they succeed on their action that gains them Panache, in the form of MAP.
Braggart Turn - Demoralize (Gain Panache)-> Finisher with target at -1 or -2 AC from frightened. 1 action left to move, raise shied, parry etc.
Fencer Turn - Feint (Gain Panache)-> Finisher with target -2 ac from flatfooted. 1 action left to move, raise shied, parry etc.
Gymnast Turn - Trip/Grapple/Shove (Gain Panache)->Finisher with -5(-4) MAP with target at -2 ac from being flat footed.
Does this seem like an issue to anybody else? To gain Panache to be able to use a finisher a Gymnast makes themselves worse at landing the finisher on that turn.
The only real advantage to being a Gymnast is that Demoralize, Feint and Distract are Mental effects so some creatures are immune, but that doesn't seem like a great trade off. There are 0 feats that require being a Gymnast, and getting a free Step after a Finisher at lvl 9 doesn't seem that strong, also seems more like a fencing thing.
Against a non-immune foe, Braggart seems the strongest, Demoralize ->Tumble Behind->Finish with target flat footed and either -1 or -2 from frightened.
I feel like one thing about the Braggart is that it's supposed to be there for the Swashbuckler who wants strength as their second highest ability score. Since "dex-to-damage" is the province of the rogue, the Swashbuckler does benefit from pushing strength, so having the Gymnast being the dedicated "strongbuckler" works for me.
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I feel like one thing about the Braggart is that it's supposed to be there for the Swashbuckler who wants strength as their second highest ability score. Since "dex-to-damage" is the province of the rogue, the Swashbuckler does benefit from pushing strength, so having the Gymnast being the dedicated "strongbuckler" works for me.
I'd agree more if there was a way to get Str to 18 to be a "strongbuckler" currently with the Class stat only being Dex there's no way to max Str and focus on that over dex.
And even with that they're still at a disadvantage in terms of generating panache and using their finishers.
Braggart/Fencer can use their skill actions in any order however they like and have the same chance of succeeding and gaining Panache. They can attack 2x and then demoralize/distract.
The Gymnast doesn't have this flexibility, attacking twice then trying to Grapple/Trip/Shove would be pretty pointless and doing the grapple/trip/shove first lowers any followup attacks.
Basically Gymnast has less flexibility on how they play with no added benefit other than not being Mental effects.
Fencer for example could, Feint target A, finisher, then Distract target B. Braggart can do the same with demoralize.
Gymnast can certainly try to Shove->finish->trip but with MAP they're gonna suck at it.
Gymnast has some downsides, but the versatility of picking which save to target and the possibility to spec into the one skill every melee really loves to get extra benefit isn't something to be totally ignored here. I could also see a disarm feat line taking advantage of it.
Just saying, if you have to pick one skill to spec in as a combatant, Athletics is pretty high up. I'm still testing, however.
Braggarts can only generate panache once per enemy until level 9 and mental/auditory requirements without additional feats.
Fencers probably have the best overall panache gainer, but the trade off is that it's probably the worst actual debuff of the three, flat footed is a very common condition and it's only flat footed to one attack until 9 (unless you crit).
Gymnast has to deal with MAP, but can choose whether to target Fort or Reflex and applies pretty strong debuffs overall.
Just comparing Trip and Feint, Feint is flat footed against one attack, Trip is flat footed against everything + a penalty to attack rolls that lasts until they spend an action to remove the condition.
The fact that you accrue MAP is the only thing that keeps Fencer from being completely blown out of the water there.
The balance here looks a lot better than you're making it out to be, I think.
I would say that gymnast probably wants to focus on finishers the least of the three, and try to maximize benefits of having panache up. It's right in the name, they want to take all those feats that allow moving and maneuvering that don't eat your panache.
MAP can be circumvented by using the finisher next round. Of course then you don't have panache up, but a tumble through can fix that. So your routine might be "move-trip-shield raise, next turn finisher-tumble-shield raise", replacing shield raises with attacks at -5 to hit if you want to focus more on damage (with high probability of flat footed at least mitigating the MAP). It will be more about debuffing/mobility and less raw damage than the other styles. You definitely take AoO at 6 for that increased damage though, and being able to trigger it reliably with trips probably brings you up to the same place as the others damage-wise (of course you have to wait til 6,which is unfortunate).
I am interested in how a mobility focused Gymnast and a damage focused Braggart would compare.
To be honest though tumble is probably how they will want to trigger often anyways, especially with tumble behind, which is honestly fairly reliable and no map penalty.
I think fencing has the edge but as others have mentioned it has a lot more reproducibility and potentially you can use expertise assurance.
It is an interesting point though, another form of athletics usage would be nice, like swinging on a rope or maybe a broader application of acrobatics.
The "don't just blow through your panache" seems to work wellfor the gymnast since it lets you use things like Vivacious Bravado to good effect and the "roll twice" effect on Derring-Do is a lot more potent with grapple or trip than it is with feint or demoralize.
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To be honest though tumble is probably how they will want to trigger often anyways, especially with tumble behind, which is honestly fairly reliable and no map penalty.
I think fencing has the edge but as others have mentioned it has a lot more reproducibility and potentially you can use expertise assurance.
It is an interesting point though, another form of athletics usage would be nice, like swinging on a rope or maybe a broader application of acrobatics.
Lol damn I gotta apologize for the whole thread, I somehow forgot that Tumble Through was a default way to gain Panache regardless of which style you pick.
Pretty much has reversed my stance on Gymnast Style now that I re-read the panache section.
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Tumble Through, Roll Twice to Trip with Derring-Do, followed by a finisher on a prone opponent seems like a potentially fun three action progression
Lol damn I gotta apologize for the whole thread, I somehow forgot that Tumble Through was a default way to gain Panache regardless of which style you pick.Pretty much has reversed my stance on Gymnast Style now that I re-read the panache section.
For what it's worth, I literally missed it on the first pass and was like "Why the heck doesn't the gymnast get to use Acrobatics??"
And then I read Panache more closely and had my answer.