What sets Witches apart from other casters:

[Rysky]

Sin_Dark wrote:

Honestly I just rolled up a 1st level Witch and Wizard and you can barely tell the difference. At this point the Witch could be a Archetype as said by others.

There’s probably not a lot of difference between casters at level 1.

[Malk_Content]

Rysky wrote:

Temperans wrote:

You mean the spells every other caster gets with no difference due to how PF2 list works?

Or do you mean hexes the things that should had never been spells in the first place and they get very few uses off?

They’re casters, casting is their thing.

Not saying they can’t have more than that, but the perception that Cackle is supposed to be the Witch’s main thing is just silly.

And Hexes work great as Focus, it’s what a lot of people predicted they’d be.

I don't think people are saying that cackle is meant to be the witches thing. I'm saying that on a class that already has little meat, the presentation of a unique action thatbfunctionslly does nothing is further off putting. I'm not speaking to the power or balance but to the optics. 4 out of 4bof my players, including the one who really wanted to play a witch, have separately reported this disappointment.

[Arachnofiend]

Rysky wrote:

So a player perception issue.

A Witch’s thing is their spells.

Same with a Wizard. They still get Drain Bonded Item as a cool unique action.

[Rysky]

Malk_Content wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Temperans wrote:

You mean the spells every other caster gets with no difference due to how PF2 list works?

Or do you mean hexes the things that should had never been spells in the first place and they get very few uses off?

They’re casters, casting is their thing.

Not saying they can’t have more than that, but the perception that Cackle is supposed to be the Witch’s main thing is just silly.

And Hexes work great as Focus, it’s what a lot of people predicted they’d be.

I don't think people are saying that cackle is meant to be the witches thing. I'm saying that on a class that already has little meat, the presentation of a unique action thatbfunctionslly does nothing is further off putting. I'm not speaking to the power or balance but to the optics. 4 out of 4bof my players, including the one who really wanted to play a witch, have separately reported this disappointment.

Witches not getting much is a separate but valid complaint, especially with Patrons doing a whole lot of nothing.

[Mechagamera]

It seems like they could up the number of lessons a witch gets (and that are available), and give the witch a little more "I take stuff from all spell lists" distinctiveness. Everyone else is getting power from one source, but a witch's patron could subcontract lessons out, so the witch is effectively learning from all 4 lists. Custom spell list building got the 5e bard some love.

[Dubious Scholar]

Rysky wrote:

Malk_Content wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Temperans wrote:

You mean the spells every other caster gets with no difference due to how PF2 list works?

Or do you mean hexes the things that should had never been spells in the first place and they get very few uses off?

They’re casters, casting is their thing.

Not saying they can’t have more than that, but the perception that Cackle is supposed to be the Witch’s main thing is just silly.

And Hexes work great as Focus, it’s what a lot of people predicted they’d be.

I don't think people are saying that cackle is meant to be the witches thing. I'm saying that on a class that already has little meat, the presentation of a unique action thatbfunctionslly does nothing is further off putting. I'm not speaking to the power or balance but to the optics. 4 out of 4bof my players, including the one who really wanted to play a witch, have separately reported this disappointment.

Witches not getting much is a separate but valid complaint, especially with Patrons doing a whole lot of nothing.

Hmm. Do they need that much else to set them apart? I think maybe giving the lessons passive effects akin to bloodlines or something, if you want to map them 1:1 against sorcerer.

Although I would note all the existing prepared casters have something to help their flexibility. Wizards get arcane bond. Clerics get Divine Font. Druids are getting an animal companion, extra focus points, or wild shape. It doesn't feel like witch is getting something for that.

Cackle is a ribbon. It's the kind of thing you compare to knowing Druidic or not needing a component pouch.

A thought: Once per day your familiar may cast a hex. It maintains this hex each round as a free action. At level one it gives you a bit more reach on focus spells, but more importantly it allows you to multitask a fight and really lock stuff down. And of course once you have more than one focus spell it's got the same flexibility.