We are about to start the Strange Aeons AP.
The four PCs are going to be an Hedge Witch, a Vivisectionist Alchemist, an Unchain Summoner, and an Unchained Monk.
Do you think the party is well balanced, and should I, as the DM, expect issues with this formation for the Strange Aeons AP?
Thanks in advance.
The concept of a "balanced party" is outdated. Pathfinder is geared towards hybrids and generally flexible or versatile characters, and the "traditional party roles" are/should be split among multiple characters.
What you want is answers to various kinds of challenges. I don't know the AP, but such challenges are usually: Tough individual enemies, groups of enemies, swarms, flying/unreachable enemies, and invisible enemies; perception checks, various knowledge checks, and social interactions; hp damage and conditions; travel.
With three casters, and three good damage dealing classes, you shouldn't have problems with enemies, except possibly swarms - you might want to pick up some Alchemical Fires. Two int-based classes and a charisma based class, alongside three casters, should easily overcome all skill- and similar challenges. All three casters can use healing wands, and both Witch and Alchemist can remove most conditions (a scroll of Remove Paralysis might be needed).
Witch (and Summoner) has the arcane travel spells.
Inter-party balance shouldn't be much of a problem, either, unless the Monk player has no idea what they're doing.
If all three martialish characters are well build, you might have a high damage party, which can make enemies too easy. A well-build Witch can also easily decide encounters with controll spells and hexes. Both are things to watch ouf for, lest the game become too easy.
|
If all three martialish characters are well build, you might have a high damage party, which can make enemies too easy. A well-build Witch can also easily decide encounters with controll spells and hexes. Both are things to watch ouf for, lest the game become too easy.
There are still some encounters that could be very dangerous, especially if people neglect their will saves.
I would check that the Witch takes a hex that can be used against undead (immune to mind affecting).
Make sure the Monk and Vivisectionist don't have 5 Cha, or they won't be able to reliably wake up from the Dreamlands Excursion ritual in book 3 (at 7th lvl).
There are still some encounters that could be very dangerous, especially if people neglect their will saves.
Well, of course, but that has nothing to do with party balance, does it? Against most challenges, it's enough if some of the party have an answer, especially non-combat ones, but saves are checked individually on every PC, so every PC should be good at that front, no matter the party.
no trapfinding will doom you all! Kidding, as derklord said, you’ll be fine.
Even though said in jest, I'd still like to explain why I didn't include Trapfinding in my list: My experence with APs is limited, but barring specific APs (like Mummy's Mask, where it's granted by a campaign trait), Trapfinding (or rather the ability to disable magical traps with Disable Device) is not in any way necessary. Everyone can detect magic traps, and you can usually circumvent or remote trigger them (e.g. with a summoned creature). Even if not, you can usually just take the effect and heal any damage back up afterwards.
I remember triggering just about any haunt and trap in Carrior Crown, and it didn't really hamper the group. That air elemental never even got a turn...
The absence of a divine caster is not going to be an issue?
Like I said, the "traditional party roles" are/should be split among multiple characters. I say "party roles", because that's what most people of such a mindset think about, but "party jobs" would actually be a better description.
Which is where we get to divine casting - there are multiple jobs a (primary) divine caster can or should fulfill, but usually, when people talk about the need for divine casting, the party job they're talking about is healing, which is actually the two jobs 'HP healing' and 'condition removal'. I've addressed both in my first post, but to go a bit mire into detail: For the former, Witch and Alchemist can both use Wands of CLW, while Witch and Summoner can both use Wands of Infernal Healing. For the latter, most condition removal spells are actually present on the three spell lists (Remove Blindness/Deafness, Delay Poison, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Sickness, and Lesser Restoration; plus later Heal). Missing is Remove Paralysis, which is why I suggested a scroll.
What else would you want from divine casting? Buffs that protect against specific nasty things, like Freedom of Movement or Death Ward? The party's got both (Alchemist for the former, Alchemist and Witch for the latter). Spells like Air Walk and Wind Walk are superfluous with arcane casting.
This doesn't mean there aren't situations where a Cleric wouldn't be handy, but that's more a "the grass is always greener on the other side" thing then an actual problem. When in doubt, bying scrolls or hired spellcasting are things that exist.
There are two hundred non-Cleric Wizard spells that are granted by domains, and over 120 non-Oracle Wizard spells granted by Mysteries. A Witch has access to literally half the Cleric spell list, and over 150 non-Wizard Cleric spells (and that's without Patrons, which grant 135 non-Witch spells form the Cleric or Druid list). But then again, over 57% of spells on the Cleric list are also Wizard spells (616 out of 1083), anyway, and over half the Wizard list (958 out of 1809) is also on the Cleric, Druid, or Inquisitor list.
It's also not that all divine spell lists are highly overlapping - both Wizard (616) and Witch (528) have vastly more spells in common with the Cleric than Druid (300).
other classes are probably not going to want to spend a big chunk of their spells known/spells available on all those different annoying situational protective and condition removal spells.
That's right, but an Alchemist doesn't have to. It takes but a minute to mix up an extract, and you can leave slots open in the morning just like a prepared caster. Then, when you need to remove some unforseen condition after a fight, you spend a minute to brew up the respective extract (a Cleric would need 15 minutes), and hand it over as an infusion.
I'm confused what the point of your argument is. Because I don't see any.
Overall I think the party may work. Having said that, I have a few thoughts.
Is there a tank in this party? Is it the unchained monk, because I don't really see them meant for that role. Still, it could work fine. On that subject, a superstitious-type barb or a paladin with oath against corruption would both be great tanks for this campaign.
I'm thinking a Hex Channeler (boundaries patron) would work maybe better with SA than a hedge witch, but that's up to them. I also think a hungry ghost monk would be totally appropriate for SA as well.
I'd recommend at least one player be able to remove debuffs from your party. The hedge witch covers this a bit with diseases and poisons.
Having said all that, if your players are locked in on what they want to play, then let 'em do it. They'll probably do fine, but either way the consequences will be theirs!
J
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm confused what the point of your argument is. Because I don't see any.
It seems Leomenia's point is that a cleric selects from every cleric spell ever, while an alchemist is limited to the formulae in their book. Even an alchemist with every available slot open is less versatile in terms of formula choice than a cleric, because a cleric's effective spellbook automatically includes every cleric spell ever.
I'm confused what the point of your argument is. Because I don't see any.It seems Leomenia's point is that a cleric selects from every cleric spell ever, while an alchemist is limited to the formulae in their book. Even an alchemist with every available slot open is less versatile in terms of formula choice than a cleric, because a cleric's effective spellbook automatically includes every cleric spell ever.
I get that, but why did Lelomenia post that? I didn't say anything to the contrary. I didn't say Alchemist was a better condition remover than Cleric (the earlier access alone decides that matchup), and indeed I said "This doesn't mean there aren't situations where a Cleric wouldn't be handy".
What I've argued is that Alchemist (helped by Witch and Summoner) does the job well enough, especially thanks to the on-demand preperation of 'spells', that the party shouldn't have any major problems in that regard.
Is there a tank in this party? Is it the unchained monk, because I don't really see them meant for that role.
First, no one is "meant for the role of tank", because it's not a role, but a build style. Second, a dedicated tank* is rather inefficient, and the group has enough melee presence.
*) Per definition, a tank is someone who strongly focusses on defense over offense.
I also think a hungry ghost monk would be totally appropriate for SA as well.
For Hungry Ghost Monk, you'd need to be cMonk, which is a huge downgrade compared to an unMonk (for a melee damage build).
I'd recommend at least one player be able to remove debuffs from your party. The hedge witch covers this a bit with diseases and poisons.
I'd recomend you read the answer in a thread before posting. You mean debuffs like blindness, deafness, curses, diseases, sickness, and ability damage? Those are all removable by the party as-is.
Balance is overrated.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I get that, but why did Lelomenia post that?
To further elaborate on the types of situations where having a cleric "would be handy", I would guess?
Not everyone has a razor-sharp purpose with every word they utter. I'm all for concise and precise communication, but I think statements like "you don't seem to have a point" or "why would you post that?" do more harm than good when seeking efficient conversation.
To further elaborate on the types of situations where having a cleric "would be handy", I would guess?
This doesn't actually answer the question. Because I don't see any reason to "elaborate on the types of situations where having a cleric would be handy" when that doesn't seem to have anything to do with this thread. The question was "The absence of a divine caster is not going to be an issue?", and "noting that clerics, druids, and shaman are the three 9 level classes with full access to their class lists each morning" doesn't in any way adress this question, as far as i can see. Hence my confusion.