My group has recently finished up our last pre-core campaign. Moving on to the new Core rules we have had some time to adjust to the new rules. Recovery has bothered us the most. We feel it slows the game down more than the old rules. Recharging at the time of casting takes virtually no time. Example, when casting a cure, we normally roll the recharge die along with the d4. When using an attack spell, after the check we pick up with arcane/divine die used and roll again for the recharge. All this keeps in the flow of the game.
With the new rules there are so many options to assist others, especially with allies (which I love). So the next person ends up waiting for the recovery to finish and new hands to be drawn before drawing. This creates a dead-time we are noticing. Assuming we don't adopt recovery rules, what issues would we run into?
I would generally advise sticking with Recovery, especially because it has distinct strategic implications (like ordering how your spells get recharged) and interacts with some boons and characters more than others. Plus, it'll become the norm moving forward.
As far as ways to speed it up - once someone has ended their turn I would suggest that the next player start taking their turn, pausing only if they need to wait for more support. That lets the previous player make their Recovery rolls (in the order of their choice) and reset their hand. If there's no funky things going on (like shuffling your deck during Recovery) then you can even just reset your hand immediately and then make your Recovery checks afterwards whilst other people are taking their turns.
In short, it's not so much that Recovery is 'faster' than rolling to recharge as you play spells, but you can make your rolls at a time when you are otherwise unlikely to be doing much whilst waiting for your turn. Probably the main design benefits of it was trying to simplify the game, not speed it up - understanding at what point during a check/encounter/exploration you rolled to recharge your spells and what did and did not affect your recharge checks was a very frequently misunderstood set of mechanics among players.
Recovery closes out a lot of rules ambiguities (which made things unclear and created table variance) and exploits like infinite examines/explores in addition to what Yewstance mentioned.
Recovery has bothered us the most. We feel it slows the game down more than the old rules. ... This creates a dead-time we are noticing. Assuming we don't adopt recovery rules, what issues would we run into?
I hear you, man. I have one of those tables that really hates the new "recovery" and thinks it's a major step back, that only serves to artificially jack up the difficulty; we don't do this thing where somebody's rolling their dice, while someone else is acting on the table, so we can't see any of the supposed benefits either.
"Simplification" IS an indisputable consequence, but while it's good for new players (I suppose), it came to too high a price for experienced players. Many people on my table still try to recharge their spells mid-encounter, just for the sheer habit of it, and the confusion and take-backs are really annoying and slowing us down, rather than the other way around.
The "exploits" skizzers mentioned seem to be a non-issue to me, as they're usually fixed on card level, and I can't recall any popping in MM at all.
While Yewstance advises to stick with recovery because it "will be the norm", this is no good argument to stick with a bad rule (our table, for instance, threw perma-death right out the gate way back in RotR) if its killing your fun, and I get the impression you ask about the impact if you actually home-rule this. So here are a few things:
- Healing is better: you can heal your important spells that you failed to recharge mid-turn, as opposed to having to wait for the next turn - and then maybe even draw them again at reset
- Risk management is better: depending on if you recharge or not a spell, you know exactly how much "life" you got left mid-turn, so you can decide if you want to push yourself further. With Recovery, you can't know how much cards will be in your deck until the end of your turn (and remember, the last healing opportunity would be BEFORE recovery - so your life might very well come to depend on if you recharge or not!)
- Caster deck management is better: especially with all the new recharge cards and powers, it really makes a difference if you recharge a Cure/combat spell at the start of your turn, and then "push it up" with 2-3 more recharged cards (allies, items, etc..) in the course of your turn, as opposed to having all your spells stacked on the bottom of your deck in "per-turn" clusters. Also, powers that shuffle and let you draw make it that much more likely you're going to see spells recharged mid-turn sooner.
- the only "issues" you may run in, that I can think of, are some powers that target "during Recovery", but I'm pretty sure you should be able to ad hoc these (mostly by equating them with "when you attempt to recharge X...")
So, in essence, you'd be making your game objectively easier if you wing it old school, so your choice would probably come down to where the balance lies for you between having fun and any "hardcore" impulses.
Happy adventuring, one way or the other! :)
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"Simplification" IS an indisputable consequence, but while it's good for new players (I suppose), it came to too high a price for experienced players. Many people on my table still try to recharge their spells mid-encounter, just for the sheer habit of it, and the confusion and take-backs are really annoying and slowing us down, rather than the other way around.
The "exploits" skizzers mentioned seem to be a non-issue to me, as they're usually fixed on card level, and I can't recall any popping in MM at all.
I'm not sure if you meant this, but this seems dismissive. Your usage of the word "experienced players" seems to ignore, well, a lot of experienced players.
I actually thought Mummy's Mask was worse than other sets in exploits:
- Khai-Utef and Tetisurah with their explicit resets in the middle of the turn (Khai-Utef has been errata'd now)
- Twitch Tonic and its explicit interactions with Alchemists, especially in multiples
- Neferekhu and any triggers off Diplomacy checks
- Even Curse of the Sphinx was broken in this manner (2017 Open)
A significant number of the "card level fixes" you mention (Restoration being the first) were effectively giving them the recovery mechanism anyway.
That said, it's your table and you can play the way you want.
Yeah, sorry. I should've said "SOME experienced players" (which is my observation), and "too high price" was a bit of an over-statement (which, in our case, would be more true for single blessings and banished locations). We WILL get used to it, I suppose, but only because the "we should play it *right*" sentiment outdoes the "we should play it *fun*" in this regard - however, there's a definite built up frustration in MY tables (as I said, we see no benefit from this change and having to re-adjust to it).
On the difficulty side, I think I provided examples where Recovery makes the game *objectively* more difficult - *especially* for 6-player (which, again, adds to my group frustration, as again there's the feeling that *our* playstyle gets the short end of the stick). I'd be glad if someone points out to a repercussion we missed that makes the game also objectively easier, to compensate for that (and not just "easier to learn" or "clearer to understand").
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Just quickly saying that I agree with zeroth_hour in that MM had plenty of exploits that Recovery solves; especially Reepazo (who is a promo character released alongside MM and so is closes to an MM character) and the alchemist Damiel. If you're using class decks around the similar timeframe, Occult Adventures Estra had some significant draw-combos with Neferekhu and spellcasting that Recovery prevents from going effectively infinite, too.
Additionally, Recovery does not entirely make the game more difficult. Being able to order your spell recharges (especially in cycling-heavy characters like Lem and Seoni) is a big deal, and you mentioned the risk reward change by not knowing how many cards are in your deck - but the flipside is that if you end up losing more of your hand to damage you can now ask for assistance on your Recovery checks to make sure you pass them if it's a matter of life and death. If anything, delaying the time before you make a decision (the decision being whether or not to expend resources to help your Recovery checks) means you can make that decision with more information, which seems to be the opposite of what you're suggesting (which was that you had less information to work with).
Regardless, if your table universally has more fun working with the old rules; go ahead. It's a purely co-operative game and having fun trumps anything else!
In fairness to Longshot, nearly every one of those reason has been brought up at my table. Personally I do feel like it makes the game harder for caster. But I have no problem with that, as i'm always looking to increase the challenge.
The real issue is slowing the game down. Im going to assume once we adjust to recovery that will relieve most of the issues. Outside of that I was wondering about any game-breaking issues that could come up.
Still, Im going to push us use recovery for now. Thanks for the comments.