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By treating this not as a combat but exploration - whoever is sneaking rolls once for every time they have to pass sentries. Roll every 10 feet is for when you're trying to sneak during combat or other situation where you zoom in to grid'n'minis or your "walk around the castle" zooms into "combat mode" Final Fantasy-style.
And seriously, your condescending attitude ("any indication of awareness of basic math") is getting a bit long in the tooth.
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The guard probably doesn't know you're there. This gives you the unnoticed condition. You're not using the sneak action, but the avoid Notice exploration tactics to sneak past such a guard. And Avoid Notice is a single check.
Sneaking is for when the opponent is aware of your presence, making you undetected
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I agree with Gorbacz, the rules for Sneak are given assuming you're sneaking in an encounter, and are not meant to literally carry over into exploration mode. In an encounter there is a lot more going in to worry about, in exploration you can focus on only sneaking. I would say you might have to make one check per guard, and maybe an extra one if one of the guards might get another opportunity to observe you, such as if you're sneaking behind them in an open field. It's true a level 1 rogue would stand a good chance of being detected still, with so many enemies to roll against. Once you get a few levels under the belt your chances of success against the same group rise significantly. I think that's working as intended: an at-level threat should be able to detect you about half the time.
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In an encounter there is a lot more going in to worry about, in exploration you can focus on only sneaking. I would say you might have to make one check per guard, and maybe an extra one if one of the guards might get another opportunity to observe you, such as if you're sneaking behind them in an open field. .
To be clear, you only roll one stealth check no matter how many people might observe you. This applies in both encounter mode or exploration mode. In combat, you would roll for each sneak action you take, but it is still rolling the same amount regardless of the number of people you want to become observed by. (Also you can't sneak behind someone unless you have cover or concealment when you start your movement actio, barring some special feats.)
In exploration mode, your GM can decide how often to roll, but it should be based off changing circumstances, not just multiple targets. Rolling once per guard tower might be reasonable, but it doesn't matter if there are 2 guards or 10 on each post, assuming they all have the same perception DC.
I agree. I was thinking of a scenario where there is a guard in area A, you sneak past him, then there is a guard in area B, so you roll again.
I agree. I was thinking of a scenario where there is a guard in area A, you sneak past him, then there is a guard in area B, so you roll again.
I figured you might be, I just wanted to clarify it.
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Unless the guard is aware of you and rolling Initiative, the scenario IS in exploration mode.
You want RAW, play RAW.
It only takes a basic awareness of core rules, after all.
Page 479
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Seems like Avoid Notice is supposed to be a Stealth ability, but I can't seem to find it anywhere in the book. Can anyone help me out with that?
Page 479 or here on AoN. (yeah, uses of Skills are a bit scattered around the book).
As an aside, what is the point of the rules stating you move at half speed (or having abilities that allow you to move at full speed) when using the Avoid Notice activity? Unless the GM has places the party in some contrived time sensative scenario (in which case he's probably sort of winging it anyways), the activity generally doesn't involve speeds or round tracking or any of that in the first place.
Doesn't it generally go something like this 95% of the time?
It only takes a basic awareness of core rules, after all.
Awareness, and the constantly reapplied knowledge that a lot of 1st Edition baggage does not carry over.
What is the point of the rules stating you move at half speed (or having abilities that allow you to move at full speed) when Avoiding Notice?
It seems most relevant when some members of the party are not sneaking. Basically giving them a pass to do other exploration activities that move at half speed while you avoid notice. Of course, this wouldn't result in bypassing encounters as a team, but you would still get the Stealth as initiative part of Avoiding Notice.
If you're trying to sneak past the guards to interrupt a vile ritual which will conclude in 30 minutes it's pretty damn important how fast does it take you to move.
True, and Swift Sneak removes the penalty so you can completely keep up with your party while bee-lining for the cultist and Avoiding Notice.
But yeah, how much time it takes to traverse points during Exploration mode is up to the GM, but there are guidelines for how long it takes the party to travel overland (and not on a round by round basis) that can be used if the GM really needs that level of detail to figure out if the party will make it in time.
Personally, when I GM I usually make things happen at plot o'clock. Telling the players they're rushed for time (but the events wont happen without them) so I don't get bogged down by the sorts details. Yes, the party could theoretically fail to reach the enemy in time but only if they decide to waste time not traveling to where they need to be. I as the GM set the distance and how much time they have, so the answer is "Just enough time as long as you travel directly there and don't waste time".
Hmmm... as I understand the rules, if you're sneaking in exploration mode, you don't roll. The guards have to check vs. your Stealth DC.
Either way, I'd roll as few dice as possible, to avoid rolling to failure, which was the OP's concern.
I believe this is correct. At the very least Sneak has the secret tag, which means the rolls are done by the GM. In which case I believe the roll is the perception of the enemy vs the stealth DC of the PC.
In fact, all the actions of stealth have the secret tag meaning the player should never be rolling it (I think).
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This question has been asked in the pathfinder 1 and the starfinder forums, and the answer has always been the same - it isn't a case of the rules being wrong, it is a case of missing the point of how to adjudicate things entirely, which is just bad GMing. If you are not in an encounter you shouldn't be rolling stealth checks every 6 seconds in any edition of the game. This applies to other games too and is not a problem with the mechanics of any system.
Well the rules clearly attach the secret tag to stealth rolls, so the player absolutely doesn't roll. That seems pretty clear to me. It's to prevent you knowing whether or not anyone is aware of you.
As for whether the GM rolls your stealth check vs the perception DC of all the enemies or rolls the enemies perception vs your stealth DC....I'm not actually sure.
IN thinking about it, the game seems to go for whatever has less rolls so the GM rolling once for your stealth and comparing to the perception DC actually might be the correct way.
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Secret checks still use the same check, it's just rolled by the GM so the player doesn't know what they rolled. So it wouldn't change the Sneak action into a Stealth DC, it just means someone else rolls the die.
Yes, the sneaker rolls (or the GM rolls for them behind the screen) and the result is compared to the perception DC of whoever would be watching. Having every possible observer roll a perception check was extremely problematic, because if your party was trying to sneak by an orc can with 20+ orc then one one is likely to roll extremely high or get a 20.
Mark Seifter used a similar scenario to explain why they made this change last year for the playtest.
The only time the guards would roll perception is A) if initiative is being rolled, likely because someone already screwed up a stealth check, or B) they use the Seek action. And given the specific area limits of the Seek action you can't be constantly Seeking all of your surroundings at once, so it shouldn't really be something a guard can be doing unless they only have to watch a very small space.
Also worth remembering that if you are unnoticed or undetected you are only seen if you critically fail a stealth check. Otherwise you drop to hidden, which gives you a chance to sneak away without being seen if you can win initiative.
If you're trying to sneak past the guards to interrupt a vile ritual which will conclude in 30 minutes it's pretty damn important how fast does it take you to move.
Yeah, but who does that? Seems to me the speed of plot is much more common, even when the GM is trying for a specific time frame. After all, who ultimately decides if the PCs spent 10 minutes searching or 15 minutes searching? The GM. The GM could just as easily have said 30 seconds or 30 months for his time limit. It's totally arbitrary. What really matters is whether or not the GM wants there to be a high or low risk of the PCs making it on time, and how much scene tension he wants to attempt to convey.
Also, the PCs don't all have watches. Most can't just synchronize their wrist-mounted sundials for 30 minutes from now. Gauging time in Fantasy is always going to be a bit fuzzy.