PFS Kobold Sniper


Advice

Scarab Sages

I've got a shiny new Kobold boon for PFS, and I'm working on a Sniper concept. I'm aware that it's not entirely clear which options are legal for a Kobold to take using the current boon. For now, let's assume it opens up the same options as the Gencon Kobold boon did. The goal here is to have a character that can snipe constantly in order to get sneak attack damage, even while observed.

Kobold Slayer 11

STR 6 (-4 racial) DEX 21 (+2 racial, +1 4th, 8th) CON 12 (-2 racial) INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 10

1) Skill Focus (Stealth)
2) RCS: Precise Shot
3) Kobold Sniper (Sets sniping penalty at -10)
4) RCS: Rapid Shot
5) Expert Sniper (reduces sniping penalty by 10)
6) RCS: Improved Precise Shot
7) Hellcat Stealth
8) CT: Master Sniper
9) Deadly Aim
10) Assassinate or Evasion
11) Accomplished Sneak Attacker

Alternate Racial Trait: Spellcaster Sneak (important part is +2 stealth)

Traits: Reactionary, Child of the Moon (Variable +1 to +4 stealth dependent on phase of the moon)

Important Items: belled catsuit (+2 circumstance stealth), shinobi shozuko (+2 circumstance stealth), +1 Shadow (+5 competence stealth) Haramaki (eventually Improved (+10) then Greater (+15) Shadow), wand of mage armor, prowler's palliative (expendable), +2 longbow, sniper's goggles, ring of the faithful dead

Feats and slayer talents through 8th level are pretty much set in order to realize sniping with no penalty to stealth and getting 2 shots, and Hellcat Stealth to be able to hide while observed and without concealment at a -10 stealth.

Feats and Slayer Talents from 9 on could be swapped for something, if there are better options.

At 8th level, where the build comes fully online, it looks like this against my Studied Target:

Stealth +8 [ranks] +3 [class skill] +4 [size] +2 [racial] +3 [skill focus] +2 [catsuit circumstance] +2 [shinobi shozuko circumstance] +5 [shadow competence] +2 [studied target] +1 [trait]

Total: +32 or +22 using Hellcat Stealth

Attacks: +8 [BAB] +5 [dex] +2 [enhancement] +2 [studied] -2 [rapid shot] +1 [size]

+16/+16 (1d6+4+2d6) against flat-footed AC

At 11th, those numbers are: +39 stealth (+29 hellcat stealth) +17/+17 (1d6+11+4d6) including deadly aim and accomplished sneak attacker

That's not including stat boosting items or other sources of bonuses to-hit. The damage feels a little low, mainly due to never getting a stat bonus to damage and Slayer's slower sneak attack progression.

Any suggestions to improve on this? Obvious bonuses to stealth that I'm missing? Or anything to improve damage?


If you're going to be using stealth/sniping constantly then rogue's 3/4 BAB should be fine. And of course they get better sneak attack progression.

Assuming that RCS = ranger combat style then you can't get the second before 6th or the third before 10th level.

Scarab Sages

Ah, shoot. It's going to be tough to get around taking Point-Blank Shot, then. I was hoping to save a feat, because there's so much to fit into the build.

Could maybe do this:

1) Skill Focus (Stealth)
2) RCS: Precise Shot
3) Point-blank Shot
4) CT: Expert Sniper
5) Kobold Sniper
6) RCS: Improved Precise Shot

Switch to Fighter
7) Hellcat Stealth, FB: Rapid Shot
8) FB: Master Sniper

Switch back to Slayer
9) Deadly Aim
10) Fast Stealth (Probably something better at this point)
11) Accomplished Sneak Attacker

I was hoping to stay single-classed, but this would keep getting to Master Sniper at the same level and end up with the same number of sneak attack dice and same studied target bonus. I doubt I'll go beyond 11th with the character, so slowing down that progression later isn't as big of a deal.

Rogue is going to have trouble fitting all of the feats in, since it can only pick up one of them through Combat Trick. Unless I went Swashbuckler, but then I still end up a feat short.


Rogues can get combat trick (x2 if swashbuckler) & superior sniper. And they can reasonably skip deadly aim, and don't need accomplished sneak attacker. Let's try it with a 1-level fighter dip at level 7.

1: point blank shot
RT2: CT: precise shot
3: skill focus (stealth)
RT4: superior sniper (expert sniper)
5: kobold sniper
RT6: CT2: rapid shot
7: hellcat stealth
7 (fighter bonus 1): master sniper
9: extra rogue talent (surprise strike)
9 (RT8): dampen presence
11: extra rogue talent (petrifying strike)
11 (RT10): double debilitation

Works for me. It comes together at 7th level with 3d6 sneak attack though no studied target, obviously. Worship Erastil and the deadeye bowman trait gives half of the value of improved precise shot.

Scarab Sages

That has potential. I completely missed that superior sniper was a thing. I'm not sold on it for a few reasons, though.

I don't think Deadeye Bowman on this build is quite as good as for a normal archer. The reason is that this build is less mobile than a normal archer. If a normal archer has to move to make sure there's only one creature providing soft cover, then they just get one attack that round and can full attack the next round.

If a sniper build has to move, then they can't snipe. If they attack, they'll end their turn not in stealth. Which means on round 2, they have to spend a move to stealth again. Which means they can only get 1 attack (master sniper is a full-round action), and they can't snipe. So they are once again not hidden between turns.

What having Improved Precise Shot does is to greatly increase the number of rounds where you don't have to move at all and can snipe/full round without having to worry about cover.

The Rogue/Fighter is roughly -6 to-hit compared to the Slayer/Fighter (Rogue ends up BAB +8, and no Studied Target, vs BAB +11 and +3 Studied Target). So taking an extra -4 on top of that really hurts. Debilitating Strike helps, but you have to hit in the first place. And the higher levels go, the less flat-footed AC lowers the enemies AC, as things tend to be bigger and slower with more natural armor.

The Rogue ends up with 5d6 sneak compared to 4d6 sneak. But Studied Target damage bonus is almost the average of a sneak die, and it works against things that don't take precision damage. Similarly, Deadly Aim lowers to-hit by 3, but it also raises damage by 6.

Assuming a +2 bow, the Rogue would be doing 1d6+2+5d6 x2 attacks at 11th vs 1d6+11+4d6 x2 attacks. If both hit with both attacks, that's 46 average damage for the Rogue vs 57 for the slayer. And the slayer can actually do some damage to things like elementals. The Rogue gets some other nice things like petrifying strike. However, petrifying strike and double debilitation are both Advanced Rogue Talents, and I don't think it's clear that you can select an Advanced Rogue Talent with Extra Rogue Talent. I'd want to research that some more.

If I knew, for sure, that Rogue sneak attack and Slayer sneak attack stacked, then I think there would be a way to do a Slayer/URogue build using superior sniper. But I think there's enough of an argument out there that neither class has the language that its sneak attack stacks with other sources of sneak attack, and I don't want to test that for PFS.


In the olden days, Kobold Sniper was needed to reduce the sniping penalty to 0. Nowadays anyone can take the Signature Skill (Stealth) feat to reduce the sniping penalty in addition to multiple other abilities as you level up. UnRogues are given skill unlocks for free, so avr's build has one feat slot left.

And your biggest concern should be how your kobold fares before level 8. Without Sneak Attack and Deadly Aim, your damage should be quite low. Unless you're content with waiting that long to come online, I'd recommend skipping both Master Sniper and Hellcat Stealth for smoke tactics or something similar.

Scarab Sages

The Skill Unlock is a good point. Unchained Rogues are the only ones who can get it in PFS, but that would help the build.

He has Studied Target from level 1 and Sneak Attack from level 3. He just doesn't have Hellcat Stealth. So he'll get some sneak attacks in, and he can still snipe from concealment. Having a way to generate concealment is definitely worthwhile.

I'm currently looking at whether going Hunter instead of Fighter does anything for me. It would give Precise Shot without prereqs, meaning I could take Rapid Shot with the combat style. If I give up (get killed) the animal companion, Animal Focus provides some nice bonuses. Plus gravity bow will help a little and other spells. Just toying with the idea for now.

It may be that I need to find a way to bump Strength up higher to get some bonus to damage eventually. It's just so expensive in the point-buy with the -4 racial penalty.


Ferious Thune wrote:
It may be that I need to find a way to bump Strength up higher to get some bonus to damage eventually. It's just so expensive in the point-buy with the -4 racial penalty.

With 6 Strength you won't even be able to carry your gear properly. Your light load is a mere 15 lbs. (6 Str = 20 lbs. * 3/4 because Small character).


Ferious Thune wrote:
It may be that I need to find a way to bump Strength up higher to get some bonus to damage eventually. It's just so expensive in the point-buy with the -4 racial penalty.

Or just to avoid the strength penalty to damage you're taking with bows. But I'd start out with a 12 before racials at the very least, since that's still a 1:1 increase.

A 16-14-14-12-12-7 spread works rather well unless you're charisma-based. The 7 in charisma, and a trait that allows you to use wisdom or intelligence for bluff/diplomacy.

You could rely on smoke tactics to come online with two ranged sneak attacks from level 4 onward, instead of waiting until level 8 and having to take Skill Focus, Kobold Sniper, Expert Sniper, Master Sniper and Hellcat Stealth.

Scarab Sages

I've made a 5 STR character work before. It's possible. Just have to be really careful with it. Remember that carrying capacity may be 3/4, but most (non-magic) equipment is 1/2 or 1/4 weight. A small longbow is only 1.5 pounds (Darkwood becomes .75 pounds). Small Haramaki .5 pounds. Etc. And a small masterwork backpack is 1 pound, but adds 2.25 pounds capacity (net 1.25 pounds). Pathfinder Pouch adds 10 pounds for 1 pound eventually. Etc. It can work. Eventually some of the slotted items start to add up, since they don't get reduced weight, but there are options to improve capacity later.

EDIT: Before it comes up, I'm aware Shadows exist. The item to protect against strength damage is 18,000 gold (Minor Ring of Inner Fortitude), however, there's the Ring of the Faithful Dead, which doesn't keep you from getting killed by a Shadow/Greater Shadow, but it does keep you from turning into a Shadow. Meaning you can still Raise Dead and won't try to murder your party. That's only 1,000gp.

Scarab Sages

Wonderstell wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
It may be that I need to find a way to bump Strength up higher to get some bonus to damage eventually. It's just so expensive in the point-buy with the -4 racial penalty.

Or just to avoid the strength penalty to damage you're taking with bows. But I'd start out with a 12 before racials at the very least, since that's still a 1:1 increase.

A 16-14-14-12-12-7 spread works rather well unless you're charisma-based. The 7 in charisma, and a trait that allows you to use wisdom or intelligence for bluff/diplomacy.

You could rely on smoke tactics to come online with two ranged sneak attacks from level 4 onward, instead of waiting until level 8 and having to take Skill Focus, Kobold Sniper, Expert Sniper, Master Sniper and Hellcat Stealth.

Ahhhh.... I missed that you take the STR penalty. I was thinking I'd just never get a bonus and use a regular longbow.

Ok, then I'll need to buy it up.(EDIT: Nevermind, I see you said before racials) EDIT, EDIT: If I'm going to buy it up, I'd want to get it to 10. I can figure that out.

Smoke tactics are fine, but they require setup. A lot of fights will be over before I ever get an attack if I rely on them all the time. I'm better off winning initiative and full attacking in the first round. Smoke tactics are fine for some situations, and being prepared for using them is good. But level 8 on I don't want to rely on spending my first round creating concealment, because a lot of things will be dead before I get a second turn.


Ferious Thune wrote:
Smoke tactics are fine, but they require setup. A lot of fights will be over before I ever get an attack if I rely on them all the time. I'm better off winning initiative and full attacking in the first round. Smoke tactics are fine for some situations, and being prepared for using them is good. But level 8 on I don't want to rely on spending my first round creating concealment, because a lot of things will be dead before I get a second turn.

Depends on how you get smoke, no?

As a kobold you can get a Prehensile Tail, so you'd be able to hold a bow and a smokestick, using the Equipment Trick feat to create smoke as a swift action and fire your bow each round.


I'm looking at a Kobold Sniper for mine as well! I really want to use a Kobold archetype for my character, but they all seem to be so niche/downgrades that a savvy non-kobold-archetype build performs the concept better... (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here). Alchemist might also be fun for a Kobold, but sniping is just so cool...

Here is what I had in mind:

Kobold uRogue with a shortbow. Sniper archetype seemed useful, but not required with items (like the assassin's sight and eventually sniper googles). Other archetypes that don't slow down talent progression seemed worth while, depending on taste/character expectations.

Str: 8 Dex: 18 Con: 12 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Feats/rTalents
1 PBS
2 Combat Trick (Precise Shot)
3 Expert Sniper
4 The Whole Time (vanish, invisibility, and greater on scrolls/wands? Yes please)
5 Rapid Shot (Stealth Skill Unlock for no penalty to sniping)
6 Superior Sniper (Master Sniper)
7 Rapid Reload (to switch to a crossbow if desired) or any other feat
8 Dampen Presence
9 Skill Focus (Stealth)
10 Stalker Talent: Hide in Plain Sight
11 Double Debilitation

You get superior sniper as soon as possible and have no penalty for sniping at level 5. If you wanted it earlier, it would take two feats (kobold sniper and expert sniper for earliest of level 3 due to prerequisites). Levels 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 are the minimum for a sniper IMO. Really, most everything else is up to what else the player wants the character to do.

The issue for this build is how to get reliable places to hide for sniping before level 10. Smokesticks work, as mentioned above. Also, unless you are fighting in an empty dungeon, I find it hard to believe there is absolutely nothing for a small creature to hide behind/in. A bush? Flipped table? Curtains? For those situations, smokesticks would be perfect though!


Gummy Bear wrote:
4 The Whole Time (vanish, invisibility, and greater on scrolls/wands? Yes please)

You might be interested in the Counterfeit Mage archetype if you're already spending your 4th talent on The Whole Time. Assuming a +2 Belt and a Cracked Magenta Prism Ioun Stone, you'd auto-succeed on any wand by level 6.


That’s pretty sweet! IMO magic is incredibly useful for a rogue, even more so to one that relies on sniping to deal damage. Counterfeit Mage could be a huge quality of life improvement for the build (mine anyways).

Scarab Sages

Wonderstell wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Smoke tactics are fine, but they require setup. A lot of fights will be over before I ever get an attack if I rely on them all the time. I'm better off winning initiative and full attacking in the first round. Smoke tactics are fine for some situations, and being prepared for using them is good. But level 8 on I don't want to rely on spending my first round creating concealment, because a lot of things will be dead before I get a second turn.

Depends on how you get smoke, no?

As a kobold you can get a Prehensile Tail, so you'd be able to hold a bow and a smokestick, using the Equipment Trick feat to create smoke as a swift action and fire your bow each round.

That helps for sure, though it's now taking 2 of the 5 feats that it saves (arguably Skill Focus isn't saved either, since you still want stealth).

However... I'm trying to understand to logistics of it. You're inside a 10x10 cloud. But there's no way to not be at the edge of said cloud. So you only have total concealment in two directions (the ones where there is 10 feet of cloud between you and the target). They would also, then, have total concealment from you as well, unless you're using a Goz Mask or something similar, correct? Also, in tight quarters, it may be difficult to manage and not also catch your party in the cloud. Which may or may not be a bad thing, depending on how the GM rules concealment shooting out of the cloud. But certainly anyone behind you wouldn't be able to see through and would suffer concealment.

If you're at the edge of the cloud (in order to see out without the mask), then you still need to snipe in order to maintain concealment, and you still can't stealth while being observed without Hellcat Stealth or Hide in Plain Sight. And you'll still take the sniping penalties, so you'll still want Expert Sniper, Kobold Sniper (or the Skill Unlock) and Master Sniper to get more than one shot.

Basically the Goz Mask is the way around needing those feats. A Goz Mask is 8,000gp, which you can't get in PFS until 21 Fame (or at least 11 scenarios, meaning almost 5th level). But at that point it would consume a lot of your wealth. This still isn't coming online until probably closer to 6th level.

So at least 3rd level before you have the necessary feats to use the smokestick, then at least 6th level to actually be able to effectively use it. And that's not taking into account the needed archery feats. At 7th the build I'm looking at has Hellcat Stealth and is doing what it wants to do. So going smokestick is saving a level, which is not nothing, but not enough for me to completely abandon the character I wanted to make in favor of it.

Scarab Sages

Gummy Bear - The build looks good. Knowing now about the STR penalty on bows, I might swap you Strngth and Wis (giving 10 Strength and 12 Wis). Though I know Rogues have notoriously bad saves. Emboldening strike would help, especially if you'll be getting sneak attacks off a lot.

The problem I'm seeing with the smokestack strategy or just finding somewhere to hide is that it doesn't work after the first round. Unless you're getting total concealment (which the smokestack can give, but see my thoughts above), then you cannot enter stealth merely by finding something to hide behind, because you cannot use stealth while being observed without Hellcat Stealth or Hide in Plain Sight. I have very rarely ever seen a GM rule something in the room where the fight is happening as granting total cover/concealment (unless it's a cloud you're in the middle of). You pretty much have to leave the room, be around a corner in the hall, etc.

Dim light or darkness isn't even going to help in most cases, because so many enemies have darkvision.

You've got means of becoming invisible in there, which is great. Just keep in mind you can't snipe with invisibility, and the wand action economy makes repeated use of that tough in the span of a single combat.


Ferious Thune wrote:
However... I'm trying to understand to logistics of it. You're inside a 10x10 cloud. But there's no way to not be at the edge of said cloud. So you only have total concealment in two directions (the ones where there is 10 feet of cloud between you and the target). They would also, then, have total concealment from you as well, unless you're using a Goz Mask or something similar, correct?

Well, see this thread. Apparently you'll only suffer 20% miss chance when firing from inside the cloud, so you don't actually need smoke vision unless you need to reduce the miss chance. But a seeking bow can take care of that at higher levels, while the UnRogue and Vigilante doesn't even need to take the Shadow Strike feat for Sneak Attack.

Normally I'd use the Smoke Resistant kobold trait to get mundane smoke vision, but with how kobold boons apparently works now that's not a safe bet in PFS.

Ferious Thune wrote:
Also, in tight quarters, it may be difficult to manage and not also catch your party in the cloud.

Correct. But that would mess up the enemy's vision too.

Ferious Thune wrote:
So at least 3rd level before you have the necessary feats to use the smokestick, then at least 6th level to actually be able to effectively use it. And that's not taking into account the needed archery feats. At 7th the build I'm looking at has Hellcat Stealth and is doing what it wants to do. So going smokestick is saving a level, which is not nothing, but not enough for me to completely abandon the character I wanted to make in favor of it.

Example build-Smoke tactics:
Psychometrist Stalker Vigilante

Lv 1 ability scores:
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7

Prehensile Tail Alternate Racial Trait.
Student of Philosophy Social Trait (Intelligence for Bluff/Diplomacy).

Feats and levels:
1 PBS
2 Transmutation Implement
3 Rapid Shot
4 Vigilante Talent: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Equipment Trick (Smokesticks)

Gear: +1 Bow and smokesticks (craft em)

You can create smoke as a swift action, which means you can get Hidden Strike on both your ranged attacks. Use five-foot steps if engaged in melee.
As a standard action, you can apply a +1 enhancement bonus to your bow or any equivalent special ability that lasts for one minute. Apply Bane.

3 (BAB) +4 (Dex) +3 (Enhancement) +1 (Small) +1 (PBS) -2 (Rapid)

Within 30 ft (20% miss chance)
+10/+10 (1d6+3) +2d4 Hidden Strike +2d6 Bane

Outside 30 ft
+9/+9 (1d6+2) +2d6 Bane

======

Feats and levels:
5 Precise Shot
6 Second Implement, and another +1 to your bow.
7 +1 Feat
8 Vigilante Talent: Sniper

Gear: +1 Seeking Bow, Belt of Dex +2

Same as before, but now you don't need to bother with miss chance or to stand within 30 ft. The extra feat could easily be used on Extra Focus Power.

6 (BAB) +6 (Dex) +4 (Enhancement) +1 (Small) +1 (PBS) -2 (Rapid)

Anywhere:
+15/+15/+10 (1d6+3) +4d4 Hidden Strike +2d6 Bane

+1 to Att/Dmg within 30 ft.

======

Feats and levels:
9 +1 Feat
10 Vigilante Talent: HiPS

======

All Social Talents are undecided, but Social Grace is a nobrainer and Many Guises is pretty neat.

***

More straightforward would be a Sylvan Trickster Unrogue for smoke vision. But then you'd miss out on all social talents and bane.

Scarab Sages

Wonderstell wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
However... I'm trying to understand to logistics of it. You're inside a 10x10 cloud. But there's no way to not be at the edge of said cloud. So you only have total concealment in two directions (the ones where there is 10 feet of cloud between you and the target). They would also, then, have total concealment from you as well, unless you're using a Goz Mask or something similar, correct?
Well, see this thread. Apparently you'll only suffer 20% miss chance when firing from inside the cloud, so you don't actually need smoke vision unless you need to reduce the miss chance. But a seeking bow can take care of that at higher levels, while the UnRogue and Vigilante doesn't even need to take the Shadow Strike feat for Sneak Attack.

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation of obscuring mist/fog. I've never seen anything run other than you can only see 5-feet. I don't think there's a 20/50 possibility.

Wonderstell wrote:
Normally I'd use the Smoke Resistant kobold trait to get mundane smoke vision, but with how kobold boons apparently works now that's not a safe bet in PFS.

What book is Smoke Resistant Kobold in? I don't see it listed on either Archives of Nethys or d20pfsrd. If Kobolds have a trait to see through fog similar to Ifrits, that obviously makes a difference.

Wonderstell wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Also, in tight quarters, it may be difficult to manage and not also catch your party in the cloud.
Correct. But that would mess up the enemy's vision too.

It's a super annoying thing for your party. That's why builds that throw out darkness aren't popular, either. I'm not interested in making a character that makes things less fun for the other players.

Wonderstell wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
So at least 3rd level before you have the necessary feats to use the smokestick, then at least 6th level to actually be able to effectively use it. And that's not taking into account the needed archery feats. At 7th the build I'm looking at has Hellcat Stealth and is doing what it wants to do. So going smokestick is saving a level, which is not nothing, but not enough for me to completely abandon the character I wanted to make in favor of it.
** spoiler omitted **...

I don't think your tactics work. Or at least they rely on the 20/50 interpretation of a fog's concealment. If you're in 20% concealment from a fog you create while someone is watching you, then you can't use stealth. If you're in 50% concealment, then you take 50% concealment on your attack as well.

The best you could do is swift to create the fog while standing in 50% concealment. Then take a move action to stealth while no one can observe you. Then 5-foot step into 20% concealment, where you would still be in stealth. Then either single attack breaking stealth, or wait until the next round and start sniping (which would require the sniping feats eventually, skill focus stealth, etc.). This also depends on no other enemy being able to see you from the side of the fog, as if they can, then you're being observed and can't stealth in the first place.

EDIT: I did realize that prehensile tail is a racial trait and not a feat for Kobolds. So that also helps the build. Essentially what it comes down to here, though, is that I would like to make a sniping build, and you're suggesting a smokestick build. They are different things. The confusion around what level of concealment your targets would have firing out of the cloud just makes it less likely that I'd want to run one in PFS, where you can't just get a single ruling on it ahead of time. I really have no interest in a build that requires using an item that disrupts other characters' abilities AND is a massive source of table variation.


Ferious Thune wrote:
What book is Smoke Resistant Kobold in? I don't see it listed on either Archives of Nethys or d20pfsrd. If Kobolds have a trait to see through fog similar to Ifrits, that obviously makes a difference.

Smoke Resistant (Kobolds of Golarion). It was legal before the boon change, and it was what I had in mind before I found out they've changed it.

Ferious Thune wrote:
It's a super annoying thing for your party. That's why builds that throw out darkness aren't popular, either. I'm not interested in making a character that makes things less fun for the other players.

Completely reasonable. But nobody is forcing you to use the smoke if you're somehow stuck in tight quarters. The first round when you apply Bane is perfect for moving to a better position, or you could simply rely on just the Bane dmg.

Ferious Thune wrote:
I don't think your tactics work. Or at least they rely on the 20/50 interpretation of a fog's concealment. If you're in 20% concealment from a fog you create while someone is watching you, then you can't use stealth. If you're in 50% concealment, then you take 50% concealment on your attack as well.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. Just go with a Sylvan Trickster and take the Murksight Hex if you're not convinced. Comes online at lv 4, too.

Sylvan Trickster:
1 PBS
2 Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Rapid Shot
3 Equipment Trick
4 Witch Hex: Murksight

***

Ferious Thune wrote:
I really have no interest in a build that /.../ is a massive source of table variation.

Bold to go with a stealth build, then!

Scarab Sages

Once Hellcat Stealth kicks in, there's very little room for variation.

EDIT: Ah, Smoke Resistant is a Race trait, not a Racial trait. That's why I couldn't find it. I mean, I'm hoping that the Kobold options get clarified to be available, so that would make a smokestack build more viable.


Ferious Thune wrote:
EDIT: Ah, Smoke Resistant is a Race trait, not a Racial trait. That's why I couldn't find it. I mean, I'm hoping that the Kobold options get clarified to be available, so that would make a smokestack build more viable.

Yeah it's a bit annoying to have a kobold boon but not have kobold options.

Last piece of advice, I'd probably go with an UnRogue build before Slayer. The Finesse Training feature would give you some options before sniping comes online, and as a Swashbuckler rogue (avr's build) you could get proficiency with a finessable reach weapon for 1,500 gp (Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid). Which is pretty much everything you'd need to have a melee presence.


There are no good ways of getting decent use of Smoke Resistant when you want it. I've looked; basically every way to make mundane smoke lasts 1 round while requiring at least your Standard Action and/or makes those standing in the smoke sickened separate to what Smoke Resistant gives you a bonus to saves on. You just have to hope you wind up fighting inside burning buildings a lot or something.


It works really well with smokesticks, specifically the smokestick Equipment Trick feat.

Equipment Trick: Smokestick wrote:
Slow Burn (Craft [alchemy] 1 rank): You can burn a smokestick just slowly enough to not consume it immediately. You must choose to use this trick when you light a smokestick. A slow-burning smokestick is not consumed after 1 round, and the smoke produced only lasts for 1 round. For the next hour, as a swift action when you are holding a slow-burning smokestick, you can use the smokestick to produce a cloud of smoke that lasts for only 1 round. The slow-burning smokestick lasts for 1 hour or until you have created a total of 10 clouds, at which point it is consumed.

Swift action smoke that lasts one round is pretty useful, and allows you to move around the battlefield. But to make use of the total concealment for sneak attack or the like, you'd need a way to hold the smokestick and still attack at range. Here's a couple alternatives.

Shield Brace (light shield) gives you reach and a free hand.
Lunge and a one-handed weapon works fine.
Diping into Constructed Pugilist for a light reach weapon.
Kobold Long Lash Tail Attachment for a light reach weapon and both hands free.
Throwing builds, quickdrawing with one hand.
Prehensile tails.

Scarab Sages

Wonderstell wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
EDIT: Ah, Smoke Resistant is a Race trait, not a Racial trait. That's why I couldn't find it. I mean, I'm hoping that the Kobold options get clarified to be available, so that would make a smokestack build more viable.

Yeah it's a bit annoying to have a kobold boon but not have kobold options.

Last piece of advice, I'd probably go with an UnRogue build before Slayer. The Finesse Training feature would give you some options before sniping comes online, and as a Swashbuckler rogue (avr's build) you could get proficiency with a finessable reach weapon for 1,500 gp (Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid). Which is pretty much everything you'd need to have a melee presence.

I can see advantages to an Unchained Rogue build. But I also see it ultimately suffering (in a sniper build) from fewer feats and lower BAB.

With a 10 STR and studied target, a Slayer won't be fantastic in melee, but that at least helps it be able to something.A Swashbuckler/Unchained Rogue is only going to be doing base damage in melee (no dex to damage) before 4th level anyway when they don't have sneak. But again, a lot of it comes down to me having played a couple of Rogue characters and looking to use something different this time.

I did look at vigilante. It's having to go Stalker Vigilante that I'm not thrilled about, as it puts it into a similar place as URogue. Avenger would get full-bar, but then no sneak/hidden strike to go with sniping.

I wish I could make Bolt Ace work out as a dip. Possibly with a Light Repeating Crossbow, since I wouldn't need Rapid Reload for a while. But they don't get any bonus feats in the first two levels (other than proficiencies), which means it wouldn't help me with Precise Shot.


Ferious Thune wrote:
With a 10 STR and studied target, a Slayer won't be fantastic in melee, but that at least helps it be able to something.A Swashbuckler/Unchained Rogue is only going to be doing base damage in melee (no dex to damage) before 4th level anyway when they don't have sneak. But again, a lot of it comes down to me having played a couple of Rogue characters and looking to use something different this time.

Swashbuckler Rogue, not Swashbuckler / Rogue. The former is an archetype, the latter is a really odd dip.

Scarab Sages

Oh, right. Sorry. Got confused for a second. My ideal would be 3 levels of URogue with Slayer, but that doesn't work (for PFS at least), because neither of their sneak attacks state that they stack with other classes. So it's pick one or the other. It still feels like for an archer, Slayer is the better path, even though Rogue adds a lot of melee capability that's missing without Weapon Finesse/Dex-to-damage.

The 2 level Hunter dip would look something like this:

Slayer 9/Patient Ambusher Hunter 2:

Starting array
STR 10 DEX 19 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 11 CHA 7
(Bump Dex at 4, Wis at 8)

1) Point-blank Shot->Master Sniper at 8th
2) RCS: Precise Shot ->Rapid Shot at 8th
3) Skill Focus (Stealth)
4) CT: Expert Sniper
5) Kobold Sniper
6) RCS: Improved Precise Shot

Switch to Hunter
7) Hellcat Stealth,
8) HB: Precise Shot, retrain Level2: RCS: Rapid Shot, Retrain Level 1: Master Sniper

Switch back to Slayer
9) Deadly Aim
10) Fast Stealth (Probably something better at this point)
11) Accomplished Sneak Attacker


I could move Hunter to levels 5 and 6 and get to Hellcat Stealth and Master Sniper a level earlier, at the expense of not getting Improved Precise until 8th and being stuck at +1 studied target until 7th and 1d6 sneak until 8th. It also costs 1 BAB, which is ok.

The other big negative is not getting swift study until 9th, which is an issue for any 2 level dip. The only 1 level dips that could get me Precise Shot (that I can find) are Divine Hunter Paladin or Far Strike Monk, and neither of those fit the image I have of the character for roleplaying. (Lawful alignment is an issue).

Patient Ambusher gets me disarming magical traps, Ranger/Druid spell lists for wands and a couple of spells (gravity bow), and most importantly, with a dead animal companion, animal focus, which can mean a lot of things as needed, like +2 STR if I need it for damage, or +2 CON if I don't have the ioun stone yet, or Evasion if I'm hiding and they try to drop AoOs on me, etc.

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