Hello,
I come here to look for opinion on advice on my next character.
First let me explain my choice: I love magus, I hate preparing spell; so it point me to the eldritch scion (I know there is another archetype, but it didnt seem very good); I know that the elritch scion is not the best archetype around but I want to be a spontaneus caster.
I read Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel, Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus, The hexcrafter magus guide and more. I like the idea of the transmorgifist in the hexcrafter magus guide and I tried to apply it to my build (I cant be a hexcrafter, it's not compatible with Eldritch Scion).
So here is my Build I will explain some choice after:
Race: Half Elf, alternate racial traits Mordant envoy (+1 level for transmutation spell), favored class bonus +1/6 arcana (from elf Blood)
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 14 (all increase to dex)
Traits: Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp); 2nd trait must be a campagn trait (GM decision)
Lineage Arcane:
1) Weapon Finesse, Bloodline Familiar (either one with +1 AC or a Crow with sage archetype)
2)
3) Craft Wondrous item
4) Bloodline: blur, protection from arrows, resist energy or spider climb as a swift action
5) Improved Familiar & Multiattack (-2 on secondary natural attack rather than -5), Arcane accuracy
6) Arcana: Empowered Magic & Flamboyant Arcana
7) Intensified Spell
8) Bloodline: 4th lvl one + Displacement or Haste (self)
9) Spontaneous Metafocus, Accurate strike (maybe retrain Arcane accuracy)
Items (I used the character advancement wealth)
Lvl 3: Amulet of the Mighty Fist with Agile (+Dex to damage of my natural attack)
Lvl 5: Rapier +1 Agile (+dex to my mains attacks)
Lvl 6: Corset of Greater Magic Fang (self created, to add +1 to all natural attack)
Lvl 7: Mithril Brestplate +1 (optional cause replaced next level)
Lvl 8: Celestial armor
I didnt listed the "common" item (belt +2 dex, +2 con, +2 cha, even +2 int at some point), cloak of resistance, ring of protection, upgrade to the amulet etc but I took them.
Important Spells:
Lvl 1: Frostbite, Shocking grasp (intensified)
Lvl 2: Alter self (to a troglodyte, 3 natural attack or 1 weapon +2 natural)
Lvl 3: Monstrous Physique I (Charda, 5 attack & small, Gargoyle, 4 attack, Darkvision & Flight, Witchwyrd, 4 attack & darkvision, ...)
a)So first, why Dex and not Str?
I tried both and the dex build have more AC (a few more until level 7, 5 more when I can afford a celestial armor), better reflexes save (the lowest magus save), more HP (14 con vs 12, if I want to keep a dex of 14 with Str build) and only one feat difference (weapon finesse).
The str build do more damage, especially at low level (add str to hit to both weapon and Natural attack at level 1, compared to level 3 and 5 with my dex build) but even later; the str build amulet does not need agile so that 1d6 per hit more damage.
b)Why no Dervish Dance
Because it only affect my mains attack and this build is more oriented to the extra
attack of my forms; I could probably squeez it in but I dont think it' worth it since I wont need a weapon better than +1 agile (my gold is better spent on the amulet of mighty fist or other item imo)
c) Why no Rime/enforcer
As a spontaneus caster I would need an extra feat to make that work (Spontaneus metafocus) and it would only work with one spell and not any spell with cold damage(frostbite would be the obvious choice). I dont think I can afford to get this combo and the intesified shocking grasp one, and I believe this 2nd is more interesting
Note: our campaign will start at level 1 (I know I wont do much at low level) and probably wont go past level 12 or so.
Any comment or advice would be welcome!
Tks
Do you actually need the magical lineage trait? You don't have any metamagic feats until level 7, and only have a +1 level feat then.
You generally can't take a favored class bonus until you get the class feature which the FCB improves. If you take your first +1/6 arcana bonus at level 3 then you get your first bonus arcana at level 8. On that same point remember you do get a magus arcana at level 3.
The mindblade magus isn't terrible, if you're looking at a possible different spontaneous magus.
Well, I'd go with either natural attacks or a rapier, but not both. If you're going to polymorph (which is fun) then spend your resources on that, and don't invest in an agile +1 rapier.
There is 3 reason I choose to use both:
- As I understand it I cant use spell combat with natural attack, unless I take the arcana for it (Natural Spell combat)- I cant use my Arcane pool bonus to weapons on a natural attack
- Natural attack have a 20 crit chance, so having a main attack at 15-20 (with a rapier enhancement with Keen from Arcane pool) give me a lot more chance to crit my big spell (like an intensified shock blast)
Plus it "only" cost me one feat to use both with a -2 penality on all natural attack; seem pretty cheap for 2 attack with a 15-20 crit and enhanced with Arcane pool.
I do agree that my weapon should not be my priority though and level 5 might be too soon.
EDIT: hum I am confused now; the FAQ from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/ state that I can use spell combat with natural attack; then what the Natural Spell Combat arcana is for?
Would that also be true for the arcana pool bonus? It say that I can grant any weapon I am holding a bonus of +1. If Natural attack are considered (light) weapons for spell combat, could that be also true for the Arcana Pool Bonus?
If this is true then sure I will ditch my weapon and put all my cash in my amulet (all cash designed for weapons anyway)
Do you actually need the magical lineage trait? You don't have any metamagic feats until level 7, and only have a +1 level feat then.
Hum now that I think about it, I think you are right; 1 trait + 2 feat seem really expensive for a 10d6 (at lvl 10) shocking grasp once per day.
You generally can't take a favored class bonus until you get the class feature which the FCB improves.
If you take your first +1/6 arcana bonus at level 3 then you get your first bonus arcana at level 8
I never played like that, is it in the rules? I will have to check with my DM. All guide I saw suggest that I get the bonus at level 6, 12 and 18 though
On that same point remember you do get a magus arcana at level 3.
Oh yea, that's just an oversight here; I will probably get arcane accuracy at level 3, or wand Weilder.
The mindblade magus isn't terrible, if you're looking at a possible different spontaneous magus.
It's not terrible but it's not as good as the Eldritch Scion I think (which is already not the best magus archetype). The -10 malus to concentration really hurt, basicly canceling any chance of using spellstrike bonus attack unless you can cast then make a 1 foot step (wont happen often) and I loose the bloodline of the Eldrtch Scion which is pretty great. All that for a few more spell and a secondary weapon (at level 7th), which with my polymorph build wont change much (I would just trade a secondary natural attack for a secondary weapon, with less bonus)
Just to be sure, but the hexcrafter guide agree with me: I can use spell combat (and spellstrike) AND make an attack with that secondary "hand"?
I.e.: I am transformed into a troglodyte, I got 1 weapon in main hand, a free hand (which is a claw) and a bite; I can do my main attack with weapon, another one with weapon because of spellstrike, plus a secondary claw attack and a secondary bite attack.
The free hand doesnt need to do nothing, it just need to not hold anything, right?
Sorry, that free hand needs to not make attacks. About the most you can do with it is use a swordmaster's flair or hood's flair, or similar items which wouldn't prevent you making an unarmed strike with that hand.
No you can't take that FCB earlier than 3rd level. It sounds like you've got an iffy guide there.
As you've made the character above you can cast more than one 10d6 shocking grasp at 10th level. Of course you could cast a force punch for 10d4 force damage at 10th level without any feats or traits, albeit with a higher level spell slot.
No you can't take that FCB earlier than 3rd level. It sounds like you've got an iffy guide there.
I think the relevant FAQ was referencing feats (extra class feature feats etc), not FCB's, so it's not 100% cut and dry that you can't. I think you're probably right about the RAI avr, but it may not actually be written.
The way my groups always play it is that you could take +1/x class feature FCB as long as you don't get to +1 before you actually get that feature. So you could take 1/6 Arcana FCB from level 1 as long as you're getting an arcana by level 6.
hum I am confused now; the FAQ from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/ state that I can use spell combat with natural attack; then what the Natural Spell Combat arcana is for?
You can use natural attacks made with a hand (i.e. only claws and slams) for spell combat without the need of the arcana. With the Natural Spell Combat arcana, you can use any natural attack, e.g. a bite.
All guide I saw suggest that I get the bonus at level 6, 12 and 18 though
Don't overvalue guides, they tend to not update and thus not necessarily adapt to errata/FAQs. They also don't necessarily get everything right in the first place. That said...
You generally can't take a favored class bonus until you get the class feature which the FCB improves. If you take your first +1/6 arcana bonus at level 3 then you get your first bonus arcana at level 8.
It's not really clear. First, the original rules from the first book racial FCBs appeared in, ARG, don't state anything about that. Occult Adventures copy pastes the text from the ARG, now with these two sentences added in:
"If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial favored class option that applies to that class feature until 6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be high enough to add a bonus until a later level." OA pg. 84
RAW this rule is only about FCBs that modify class features, which is not something FCBs that grant bonus feats/arcana/etc. do. Even if we retroactively apply the part from OA (which is a questionable practice because now books you might not have or use would still apply to your game), on the grounds that "[t]his isn’t actually a new rule, we still have the issue that adding something is not really modifying the base thing.
- I cant use my Arcane pool bonus to weapons on a natural attack
Ask your GM about this one. Pathfinder rules designed for PCs tend to be human-centric to a fault, often completely ignoring natural weapons (and even unarmed strikes). They often use "wield" or "hold" to talk about unsheathed weapons you want to use right now, not necessarily intending to deliberately exclude weapons like spiked gauntlets, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons.
Lvl 3: Monstrous Physique I (Charda, 5 attack & small, Gargoyle, 4 attack, Darkvision & Flight, Witchwyrd, 4 attack & darkvision, ...)
No no no, these are all wrong. Deathsnatcher is where the money's at!
Your item plan doesn't seem to leave any room for other items like CLoak of Resistance, and hinges on a rather lenient GM.
As you've made the character above you can cast more than one 10d6 shocking grasp at 10th level.
Oh that's right, it's the magus arcana mimicking the metamagic that can be used only once per day.
Thanks for the clarification on the rest; well I guess it's one less attack but less concentration check and no -2 malus from Combat magic. What I mean that there wont be any point in using a level 0 spell to attack an additionnal time with the main hand, if all it does is making me make a concentration check, giving me a -2 malus and no gaining an attack (cause I would be loosing my 2nd claw attack to gain a main claw attack); for spell level 1+, it will still be usefull of course.
No you can't take that FCB earlier than 3rd level. It sounds like you've got an iffy guide there.The way my groups always play it is that you could take +1/x class feature FCB as long as you don't get to +1 before you actually get that feature. So you could take 1/6 Arcana FCB from level 1 as long as you're getting an arcana by level 6.
Yea that's what my group is doing too.
- I cant use my Arcane pool bonus to weapons on a natural attackAsk your GM about this one. Pathfinder rules designed for PCs tend to be human-centric to a fault, often completely ignoring natural weapons (and even unarmed strikes). They often use "wield" or "hold" to talk about unsheathed weapons you want to use right now, not necessarily intending to deliberately exclude weapons like spiked gauntlets, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons.
I took a close look at how Spell Combat and Arcane pool are written and they use the almost the same words; the only difference I see is the first is talking about wielding weapon and the second holding weapon. So I will talk to my GM but I have good hope that he will allow it, especially if/when I got an amulet of mighty fist that could be considered like the "weapon" I am enhancing.
Good catch on the Deathsnatcher, I will have to take a closer look at the bestiary.
And thank you both for the clarification and recommendation.
Here are the change I think I am gonna make, considering all the replies:
- I wont buy an enchanted weapon, at least not for a while; it might be usefull at level 8+ or even 15+ because the BBA will give me a 2nd and 3rd attack but even then, it mean -2 to all my natural attack (at the cost of a feat) for a -5 then -10 attack. It may be usefull at some point for a spellstoring weapon or something.
- I think I will keep the Shocking grasp combo; it's costly sure (1 traits + 2 feat), but being able to use some level 1 spell slot for some +6-10d6 shocking grasp is worth it imo
- If my GM validate the use of arcane pool with natural attack, I wont need the corset of greater magic fang.
On a side note, we did our first session today and as expected, I dont do much at level 1 :D Concentration check to use combat magic is hard (even with level 0 spells, I was trying to use Daze with my attack ^^) and even when I touch I dont do much (1d6 damage, no mod). The paladin do way more damage than me hehe
Good catch on the Deathsnatcher, I will have to take a closer look at the bestiary.
For "normal" stuff, Deathsnatcher is the best. 6 primary natural attacks and flight make it the best medium sized monster. There are some monsters where it's not clear which part of soem special natural attack(s) you get, e.g. the Rokurokubi with the 20ft reach bite, or the Euryale's snakes, in my opinion, it's best to completely steer away from those forms.
Deathsnatcher is even one of the two best forms for Monstrous Physique II, because pounce is just that strong.Since a Magus can get flight form other spells, and can even imitate a pounce with a Spell Combat'ed Bladed Dash, there is one large monstrous humanoid takes the cake for MP2, though: Great Old One Yig, because of the truly insane damage dice.
A warning, though, that Yig is fairly controversial - while the rules are actually fairly unambiguous if you aren't trying to read something into them, you can expect people who either don't understand the polymorph rules, or who desperately try to find a loophole, to quote the "polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals" part of the polymorph rules, ignoring that a) every creature is an individual, b) just because we haven't seen others of Yig's species doesn't mean they don't exist, and most important c) that line only talks about appearance, not about which form you can select, as that sentence lacks the word "form" that the polymorph rules use when talking about mechanical aspects. Of course, even though it's perfectly legal, don't be surprised when your GM says "no".
Yea the Deathsnatcher is really great.
For Gret Old One Yig, I will have to see with my GM, but that's not before level 10 anyway.
I found a good one for level 4, the Canopy Troll. it's small (so +2 to dex, which is great for my Dex build) and have 4 attack. And it have Darkvision, Low light vision and scent (the only thing that I could get and that he doesnt is swim)
For level 7, Deathsnatcher is clearly the winner in term of damage; 6 attack (2d6, 4x1d8, 1D6),
But I found some nice other option:
- the Charda is a good option; it's small, 5 attack, darkvision, swimming (and aquatic/amphibius)
- the Arach is pretty good too; 7 attack (1d6, 6x1d4), darkvision)
I am not sure what my GM will allow me to transform into though; is there any rules saying that I need to know the creature I want to transform into? I could not find anything.
There's a guide to polymorphing, Polymorphamory. It's linked above in Zenith's Guide to the Guides. It lists a bunch of good forms.
As to what is required: there is a material component of a part of what you turn into. Your GM may make getting some of Yig's blood a major quest or even impossible. Even canopy troll hair may be hard to find if they're getting irritated. A spell component pouch holding everything with a cost less than 1 gp stops working if there is, in fact, a significant cost.
Also while there isn't a clear prohibition on polymorphing into the race of a creature who doesn't really have a race, PF devs have seized on weaker associations to stop stuff they don't like before, and it looks like they've done so here.
- the Arach is pretty good too; 7 attack (1d6, 6x1d4), darkvision)
That's not from a Paizo source, but from a third party product.
RAW, polymorph spell material components have insiginificant cost and thus are covered by spell component pouch, Eschew Materials, or False Focus.
Also while there isn't a clear prohibition on polymorphing into the race of a creature who doesn't really have a race, PF devs have seized on weaker associations to stop stuff they don't like before, and it looks like they've done so here.
Creatures without a race are excluding from being chosen for polymorph by the "Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature." rule. Yig doesn't use a template, and nothing hints at hium being an advanced version.
If the devs want to exclude demigods (and others, Great Old Onese are actually just "akin to demigods") from being polymorph forms, they could make an FAQ for that. Yes, I've seen a statement of "as a demigod, each [Green Man] counts as a specific creature and it's not a valid form for polymorph", but sadly Mark Seifter neither responded to my question of whether you can or cannot polymorph into a deity (and if not which rule stops you), or addessed my point that every single creature in existence is an individual. I've discussed the point in multiple threads, and not a single counterargument based on any actual rule was ever presented (apart from a gross misapplication of the "you can't polymorph into the king" rule, of course).
For the great old ones, the bestiary description actually says that "countless others exist on distant worlds or other dimensions", this sounds a lot like species to me. Not that the polymorph rules demand that you know multiple members of the species or anything.
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There' a difference between "an individual" and "a specific individual". You can turn into a human, but you can't turn into Darth Vader. You can turn into a Dwarf, but you can't turn into Thorin Oakenshield.
This means you can pick a race, but any stats for a named creature would be "a specific individual".
I also think your statement about "trying to read something into <the rules>" and "desperately trying to find a loophole" is a bit disingenuous. Any GM worth their dice is going to say "no" to allowing a CR27 form (Yig) at character level 7.
- the Arach is pretty good too; 7 attack (1d6, 6x1d4), darkvision)That's not from a Paizo source, but from a third party product.
Oh you are right, didnt see that. Some are clearly taged as 3PP on the d20pfsrd and I ignored them, but I guess some arent taged but are still 3PP.
And I agree that my GM will probably not (and should not) allow me to polymorph into a CR 27; I am not even sure he will (or should) allow me to polymorph into a CR 18 (deathsnatcher) at level 7.
But that's exactly my question, is there anything official about that (I dont think so?) or any guide to how to handle that?
I was thinking of simply doing by CR (can transform to anything of my CR or less) or with a knowledge check (but that will be a lot harder, especially with my low skill char).
Oh you are right, didnt see that. Some are clearly taged as 3PP on the d20pfsrd and I ignored them, but I guess some arent taged but are still 3PP.
Yeah, d20pfsrd.com is notoriously bad about seperating first and third party material. I recomment using Archives of Nethys instead!
But that's exactly my question, is there anything official about that (I dont think so?) or any guide to how to handle that?
The description for Druid's Wild Shape has a rule for that, "The form chosen must be that of an animal with which the druid is familiar." CRB pg. 51 To my knowledge, no such rule exists for the spells, but the GM might still apply it, or use it as a base for their own version. For instance, you might need to find a book with some information about a creature before you can polymorph into it. Makes a good quest, too!
A hard limit based on CR is certainly possible, but not accurate - you don't get a lot of stuff the base form has, like the Deathsnathers immunitiy, spell resistance, regeneration, SLAs, and two of the supernatural abilities. Other things you only get at higher levels of MP, i.e. pounce, resistances, and the poison. The limitations of the spell are supposed to be the power limiter.
There' a difference between "an individual" and "a specific individual". You can turn into a human, but you can't turn into Darth Vader. You can turn into a Dwarf, but you can't turn into Thorin Oakenshield.
This means you can pick a race, but any stats for a named creature would be "a specific individual".
Only if you're playing a super-meta-game where the character picks the stats from the actual real-life Bestiary book, in a kind of OotS-style. Because in-game, there is no such thing as a non-'specific individual'-creature. Every creature a character comes across is a specific individual.
Of course, to quote myself because you seem to have overlooked it, "that line only talks about appearance, not about which form you can select, as that sentence lacks the word "form" that the polymorph rules use when talking about mechanical aspects."
I also think your statement about "trying to read something into <the rules>" and "desperately trying to find a loophole" is a bit disingenuous. Any GM worth their dice is going to say "no" to allowing a CR27 form (Yig) at character level 7.
Prohibiting something for power level reasons is neither "trying to read something into <the rules>" or "desperately trying to find a loophole". A GM saying "no polymorphing into Yig because that'd be overpowered" is 100% fine. A GM saying "no polymorphing into Yig because the rules say no polymorphing into specific individuals" is not.
A GM doesn't need a loophole, or any rule, they can ban stuff that is totally fine RAW. They should be honest about it, though. And again, the stuff that makes Yig CR27 is not the natural attacks, but all the crazy immunities and abilities (like immortality).
Only if you're playing a super-meta-game where the character picks the stats from the actual real-life Bestiary book, in a kind of OotS-style. Because in-game, there is no such thing as a non-'specific individual'-creature. Every creature a character comes across is a specific individual.There' a difference between "an individual" and "a specific individual". You can turn into a human, but you can't turn into Darth Vader. You can turn into a Dwarf, but you can't turn into Thorin Oakenshield.
This means you can pick a race, but any stats for a named creature would be "a specific individual".
Ok here's the misunderstanding.
The text says: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals."
You've read that as: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into individuals that are specific indifiduals." (Sorry if that sounds like a tautology, but I guess that's kind of your point right?)
What it actually means is: "Unless otherwise noted, you cannot specify which individual you transform into."
If you read it this way and go through what I said about Yig it makes sense.
Suppose most members of the Great Old Ones from which Yig came didn't have half the stuff that Yig has on his stat block in their original forms. You turn into a Great Old One, imagining Yig and using Yigs blood or something which a non-forward thinking GM has given you. What natural attacks do you get? Yigs or I dunno, a bite and 2 claws at 1d8/1d6/1d6? If those which Yig has now - why?
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I think the Great old ones are all specific individuals, and are not the same race/type as one another. I don't know if it actually says that anywhere, but they are described as demi-god level power, and there is this list:
Members
Atlach-Nacha (CR 28), Bokrug (CR 27), Cthulhu (CR 30), Ghatanothoa (CR 29), Hastur (CR 29), Ithaqua (CR 28), Mhar (CR 26), Mordiggian (CR 30), Rhan-Tegoth (CR 28), Tawil At'umr (CR 30), Tsathoggua (CR 29), Xhamen-Dor (CR 26), Yig (CR 27)
Again, not explicit, but it looks like that's the complete list of Great Old Ones.
Also Yig has some text indicating that there is no "Yig Race":
Organization: solitary (unique)
...
Immortality (Ex) If Yig is slain, his body decays as normal, but he does not stay dead for long. He is reborn 3 months after his death, hatching from the egg of a venomous serpent (although not necessarily on the same planet on which his previous incarnation was slain). He spends a year in the form of a venomous (but otherwise normal) snake, after which he sheds his skin and emerges once again as Yig. Typically, Yig does not hold grudges against those who slew him, but this is not always the case.
The other great old ones probably have something similar, but we'd have to look them up.
You've read that as: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into individuals that are specific indifiduals." (Sorry if that sounds like a tautology, but I guess that's kind of your point right?)
No, not at all. My point is "that line talks about appearance, not about which form you can use as a base".
What it actually means is: "Unless otherwise noted, you cannot specify which individual you transform into."
This is exactly how I read it.
Let me ask you something: A character encounters their first ever elf, and took strand of hair. Can the character use Alter Self using a hair as a material component to polymorph into a generic elf?
You've read that as: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into individuals that are specific indifiduals." (Sorry if that sounds like a tautology, but I guess that's kind of your point right?)No, not at all. My point is "that line talks about appearance, not about which form you can use as a base".
I agree on him on this, the paragraph is about apparence; you seem to ignore the second sentence who is completing and precising the first:
"Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature’s type"
It's about not being able to take the apparence of the captin of the guard or something like that (but just of someone of the same race)
That said, I agree that polymorphing at level 10 into a Yig will be OP and that it should not be allowed (and I think we all agree on this, Derklord included).
To come back to my build, I discovered another advantage of my dex build rather than str; the transmutation section say:
"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell." (nothing about the fly modifier, maybe just an error?)
So I get more bonus, as a dex build, going small than a str build going big. Here is what I compiled:
Alter Self
Small:
+2 dex (from the spell),
+1 AC, +1 atk, +4 Stealth (+2 fly?), -1 CMB/CMD (from the change in size)
Total: +2 AC, +2 Atk, +5 Stealth (+3 fly), -1 CMB, +0 CMD
Medium: +2 Str
Total: +1 Atk
Monstrous Physique I:
Small:
+2 Dex, +1 Natural Armor
+1 AC, +1 atk, +4 Stealth (+2 fly?), -1 CMB/CMD (from the change in size)
Total: +3 AC, +2 Atk, +5 Stealth (+3 fly), -1 CMB, +0 CMD
Medium:
+2 Str, +2 Natural Armor
Total: +2 AC, +1 Atk, +1 CMB/CMD
Monstrous Physique II:
Tiny:
+4 dex, -2 str, +1 Natural Armor
+2 AC, +2 Atk, +8 Stealth (+4 fly), -2 CMB/CMD
Total: +5 AC, +4 Atk, +10 Stealth (+6 Fly), +4 to +6 CMB*, -1 CMD
(*:because Tiny creature use Dex instead of Str for CMB)
Large:
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Natural Armor
-1 Atk, -1 AC, -4 Stealth (-2 Fly), +1 CMB/CMD
Total: +1 Atk, +2 AC, -5 Stealth (-3 Fly), +3 CMB, +2 CMD
The major downside of this is that there is less good small form and almost none Tiny. The small and tiny also tend to have lower dmg dice (usually 1 dice lower, so 1 less damage average per size difference), but that's not really important since most of my damage will come from Frostbite or other spells.
The large form have some other advantage like the reach (it's not granted by the spell, but a lot of large form have a better reach).
Large form can be hard to use some times though.
PS: I thought I could combine a small form with reduce person to make it tiny, but I just read that under a polymorph spell, you cant be affected by another polymorph spell or a spell that change your size, sadly
Another point but I just realized that I cant have Frostbite and Shocking Grasp active at the same time (because I am holding the charge for Frostbite as long as it's not totally discharged right?).
So that make my Shocking grasp combo useless; at level 10 I would have the choice to use a +10d6 shocking grasp (at the cost of 1 trait and 2 feats) or a 10x1d6+10 frostbite (or 11x1d6+11 with my racial trait, or even 12x1d6+12 if I replace the magic lineage trait by Magic adept for Frostbite). Sure, shocking grasp if a lot more bursty, but with 5-6 attack per round, it wont take that long to do a lot more damage with Frostbite. and I will have other option to burst at this level
To replace my traits, I see 3 main options:
- Gifted adept (Frostbite), +1 attack and +1 dmg on all frostbite attack
- Seeker for a +4 in perception (+1 + class skill)
- Bandit for a +4 in Stealth
Any other ideas?
Re: STR vs DEX. Yup it looks like those small/tiny forms work well for you. Note that being Tiny usually means your reach drops to 0, which means you'd have to enter an opponent's square to attack them (which would provoke an AoO unless you do something to negate it).
Re: Frostbite vs Shocking Grasp - You're absolutely right, Frostbite does way more damage over the duration than Shocking Grasp, and with 6 attacks per round it'll almost certainly do better even in the first round. On top of that it adds a small debuff (which can be made better with the Rime Spell metamagic feat).
The disadvantage of frostbite is that it's much more easily resisted or negated entirely. It deals Nonlethal Cold Damage, so anything immune/resistant to cold will give you trouble, and anything immune/resistant to nonlethal damage will give you trouble. Having said that - you're a spell-caster, you've got a sword and you can polymorph into something with 6 natural attacks, so if you can't find alternate solutions sometimes then it's on you.
(Also sorry, we did kinda hijack your thread, glad to agree to disagree with Derklord and get back on track.)
STR vs DEX: yea I know about the reach issue but anyway the only tiny monstrous humanoid (or simple humanoid) that I found is the Karkinoi Brood Swarm, who have one swarm attack and in which I am not even sure I can metamorph into because it's a swarm, so multiple individuals, not 1.
Basicly they made some rules for tiny in Monstrous Physique II, without any usable tiny monstrous humanoid ^^
But even a small one is better than a large imo; one more AC and atk vs 1dmg (4 str vs 2 dex)
Frostbite vs Shocking Grasp:
You are right that there will always be some situation where frostbite will be unusable, and I will probably take shocking grasp too at some point, to get an alternative to it; but I dont think paying 1 traits and 2 feats to boost it is worth it if it's just an occasionnal use. As you said, I will have more than enough options (chill touch is another level 1 good alternative with no max and a reduce to str).
Still looking for other ideas for traits ^^
(hehe np, but yea let's not drag it too much pls :) )
Basicly they made some rules for tiny in Monstrous Physique II, without any usable tiny monstrous humanoid ^^
I hear you - I'm still waiting for the non-templated undead with pounce that I could use Undead Anatomy with!
@Frostbite vs Shocking Grasp: Either one will have problems with enemies that have immunity, so: If you are going to concentrate on one of them to make it usable with metamagic anyway, why not get a Metamagic Rod of Elemental Spell (assuming you can get one in your campaign) or maybe even get the feat, depending upon how often you need it? Note that unlike the Versatile Evocation School Power of VMC Wizard (Evocation (Admixturer)), Elemental Spell is not limited to Evocation spells (so it will work with Frostbite), and you don't have to wait until 7th level to get it (although in practice, you probably wouldn't get it before 5th level anyway). (Also, the 11th level ability of VMC Wizard is just a waste on a Magus unless you REALLY need some Cantrip that is on the Sorcerer/Wizard list and not the Magus spell list, but then 11th level is awfully late to get a Cantrip even if it's a good one.)
But I'd splash arcane mark if the archetype has access to level 0 spells (there's not using resources, but still doing some TWF)
Well, when polymorphed, just full attacking, or when not adjacent Spell Combat'd Bladed Dash-ing and then full attacking, probably works well enough. Spell Combat+Spellstrike is a net +0 on number of attacks when polymorphed into something with claws.
I have some cantrip yea of course, and I took arcane mark, but as Derklord said, I wont be using it when I am polymorphed cause I would just loose a claw attack to gain a claw attack. I will still be usefull to cast others spells though, without loosing any attack or when I am not polymorphed; i.e. before level 4 and even after, I will not be polymorphed 100% of the time (not far from it though, one polymorph spell is enough for a complete fight, and I will even be able to cast it before the fight if we have time to prepare, they will last level+1 min).
And yea the fact that I am a spontaneous caster make metamagic feat a lot less appealing; either I deal with the extended duration, making it impossible to use with spell combat, or I need to take one additionnal feat for each spell I want to use with a metamagic feat. Luckily that doesnt apply to Arcana that copy metamagic (because they specifically say that it doesnt increase the casting time).
Question: Telekinetic Strikes say "The touched creature’s limbs are charged with telekinetic force." But it doesnt have a number of charges like Frostgrip or even Shcoking Grasp (who have 1 charge). Does it still follow the rules of holding the charge or can I combine it with Frostbite?
As I understand it, I can combine it, because Telekinetic Strikes have a duration, while others touch spell with charge(s) doesnt (or have something like last x time or until discharged); but since the text is a little confusing I want to make sure.
If it work like I think that would be a good addition to my build, +1d4 to all my naturals attack sound good.
PS: I did a more thorough comparison between a dex build and a str build, and the difference isnt as huge as I thought; dex build have a bit more AC, but not that much, and str build have a bit more damage; although at level 10, with the possibility to change in a large creature, the str build dmg take a big bonus. I can copy my comparison here if someone is interested but it's a bit huge.
Question: Telekinetic Strikes say "The touched creature’s limbs are charged with telekinetic force." But it doesnt have a number of charges like Frostgrip or even Shcoking Grasp (who have 1 charge). Does it still follow the rules of holding the charge or can I combine it with Frostbite?
That line is pure flavor text. Just ignore it, the spell is a regular buff spell.
About the use of Arcne pool with natural weapon; I found an official answer stating that natural weapons are light weapons:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pcgk?Natural-AttacksLight-or-OneHanded-Weapon s#1, look at the 2nd last post, it's by the pathfinder design teams, so it's official.
Now it's not specificaly about arcane pool, but I think it's one more answer to suggest that it should work. Do you guys agree?
Arcane Pool says "weapon you are holding".
How strict that is is probably up to the GM a bit. I think the idea was to give manufactured melee weapons the enhancement bonus, but I don't know if it'll really break anything. If your GM made you choose 1 natural attack it definitely wouldn't break anything, but if you're somehow applying the bonus to all your natural attacks it's probably a bit unbalanced.
oh no, it's for one weapon that sure; it specifically say that if you cast is on another weapon, the first loose it.
And yea it say the weapon you are holding but spell combat also say something similar ("while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon"), and it's been FAQ that it does work with natural weapon. So unless there is a real difference (in term of rules) between holding and wielding, I dont see why one work and the other wouldnt