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So, I got my hands on Tomorrow Must Burn and I figured I'd make some notes of things that are changed/updated between the descriptions of Ravounel from Hell's Rebels and 4719AR. Of note, the implication is that the rebellion took around 2 years, assuming a start date of 4715AR then with the last few books taking place in 4717AR.
- The Kitkasiticka village now has a name -Tastikka. In addition, as suggested in her NPC write-up in The Kintargo Contact, Solmestria has stepped down as rokoa in favour of Rarrnir.
- We don't really have any more settlements listed beyond Kintargo, Vyre, Cypress Point, Whiterock, Acisazi and now Tastikka, but there are mentions of mining and ranching communities in the Menador Mountains.
- We also know from the Lost Omens World Guide that there's a major aquatic elf city -Irim- in Nisroch Bay.
- There's also mention of a goblin tribe -the Saltstinks- who live on Cape Dis. (this is of interest to a goblin player of mine)
- We also have a new geographical feature -the Revousa Ditches at the confluence of the Katharevousa and Yolubis Rivers.
- The Menador Gap is still closed.
- Deepmar has been abandoned and there are strange lights -a follow up to No Response from Deepmar may be in order.
As for Kintargo, there's some updates to things.
- The Court of Coin has been replaced with the new Silver Council, however they're still powerful noble houses and wealthy power brokers. The Kings & Queens of Vyre support the Silver Council but aren't members -though I can see Manticce maybe being on it in her public face as a powerful businesswoman.
- The Order of the Torrent has taken over Castle Kintargo rather than returning to Citadel Vaull.
- The Temple of Asmodeus is being converted into the new seat of government.
Overall this is pretty interesting. It definitely suggests that the "official canon" Ravounel won't end up a democracy like Andoran or similar. It's still beholden to the nobility and landowners (though to be fair, the existence of the Board of Governors basically implied that anyway). Bainilus called herself "Domina", a title from the old Chelaxian empire, and while we know that the strix, aquatic elves and Vyre representatives all sit on a broader Council of Peers but their interactions tend to be fractious.
I definitely found this stuff helpful for building up stuff as I continue running my group through stuff. Also, we finally got NPC art for Chuko!
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Wow. Zimmerwald was right. I owe them a sandwich.
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I just started an office campaign in Ravounel, based on a small county on the southwestern border. Building up a LOT more Ravounely info there... although it's pretty isolated from Kintargo and the rest. Maybe I'll toss it out there for folks to check out some day, but in the meantime, glad to see folks are having fun with Ravounel as well! It's probalby my favorite new nation addition to the setting.
I just started an office campaign in Ravounel, based on a small county on the southwestern border. Building up a LOT more Ravounely info there... although it's pretty isolated from Kintargo and the rest. Maybe I'll toss it out there for folks to check out some day, but in the meantime, glad to see folks are having fun with Ravounel as well! It's probalby my favorite new nation addition to the setting.
Ah! I want to know so much about it right now! Between my Hell's Rebels group and one of my Hell's Vengeance PCs playing a Jhaltero, I'm trying to get as much about Ravounel down as possible. And yeah, it's been so much fun to play with as a setting, and I'm genuinely excited to see where it goes later.
Now I need to go tell my Age of Ashes GM what I think each of my Silver Ravens would be doing in 4717AR, aside from possibly having to deal with incursions from the Darklands -ooooh, maybe something to do with Ilvarandin?
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We don't really have any more settlements listed beyond Kintargo, Vyre, Cypress Point, Whiterock, Acisazi and now Tastikka, but there are mentions of mining and ranching communities in the Menador Mountains.
Decentralization of power to the regions, and empowerment of the aristocracy therein, has had the predictable effect of stifling manufacture and industrial development and the growth of towns in favor of bare extraction of resources for export. Wealth is leaving the country, and per the LOWG, the people are even happy about it, because they've been duped into believing that what remains will be shared more levelly.
We also know from the Lost Omens World Guide that there's a major aquatic elf city -Irim- in Nisroch Bay.
Irim is an allied city, not a part of Ravounel. Mirivenn (mentioned in Dance of the Damned as one of two deep-water cities to which Acisazi sent help) is another such.
Deepmar has been abandoned and there are strange lights -a follow up to No Response from Deepmar may be in order.
See the first point, but this is even worse. This is a natural resource and export product going unexploited, presumably because the management of the land is completely irrational.
The Court of Coin has been replaced with the new Silver Council, however they're still powerful noble houses and wealthy power brokers. The Kings & Queens of Vyre support the Silver Council but aren't members -though I can see Manticce maybe being on it in her public face as a powerful businesswoman.
Overall this is pretty interesting. It definitely suggests that the "official canon" Ravounel won't end up a democracy like Andoran or similar. It's still beholden to the nobility and landowners (though to be fair, the existence of the Board of Governors basically implied that anyway). Bainilus called herself "Domina", a title from the old Chelaxian empire, and while we know that the strix, aquatic elves and Vyre representatives all sit on a broader Council of Peers but their interactions tend to be fractious.
Federation as opposed to centralization, self-selected magnates for a lower house, regional representatives for an upper house, a board of magnates advising what is effectively a monarch, no franchise and few rights for the broad population of either the towns or the countryside. . . this is the pre-1791 constitution of Poland. And it has predictably led to exactly the dictatorship of the szlachta that existed in the Commonwealth, with all its deleterious effects on economic and social development. About the only thing it has going for it is free labor, but the szlachta probably got compensated for their slaves too, draining the treasury and leaving the state unable to subsidize or compensate for the private investment the capital for which is devoured by the countryside. Revolutions were more advanced than this on Golarion fifty years ago. The OG SRs were more advanced politically than this more than seventy years ago. This is pitiful, a reactionary throwback. It'll be good riddance when the country is reabsorbed by Cheliax - a just retribution for having failed to regenerate itself socially.
Am i alone in thinking that the success of the Andoran revolution in Golarion is incredibly unrealistic given the structures in place at the time ?
People like using the analogy of America and France for Andoran and Galt right down to the success and failed revolution sides
Now I am no expert on either but the French Revolution failed despite having a prior successful revolution in America . Wasn’t a large part of this due to France having a lot of old entrenched systems and being surrounded by similar ones ? America was in a somewhat unique position to capitalise on their change
In Golarion the failure was first (I think) - so no successful template to learn from
And Andoran was not geopolitically separate or benefiting from a new frontier and attitude to grow from
So it’s success and how realistic that was is what required more scrutiny that Ravounel having a somewhat half baked attempt to set up a new system. Whilst not fulfilling the theoretical promise of the AP the outcome, in my view, is far more pragmatic and realistic than Andoran
So whilst Golarion did have more sophisticated revolutions 50 years before I don’t think it is fair to use that as criticism without subjecting Andoran to the same degree of rigorous scrutiny.
I could be completely wrong but on the face of it the whole thing seems like nonsense and a fluke of a one off
*
Incidentally was the promise of Hells Rebels ever that a revolutionary change in political structure was going to take place and a democracy be installed ?
Aren’t players given the option to be Nobles and ally with nobles throughout . I know that is one of Zimmerwald’s criticisms but the AP doesn’t really offer any pretence of being a People’s Rebellion really
Although I can’t say I have kept fully up to speed with the in depth revolution theory discussion that has been going on at times on this board
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Incidentally was the promise of Hells Rebels ever that a revolutionary change in political structure was going to take place and a democracy be installed?
No, it wasn't. From the beginning it was always a lowest-common-denominator setup focused around removing a mad-dog tyrant. What social forces were ascendent within the society, and what structure came after the revolution, were up to each table and how it conducted itself.
That said, when Paizo brought the successful revolution into its setting it had to pick a canon, and it chose what even by the setting's own terms is utterly retrograde.
As for whether late-18th-century republicanism is plausible in the setting, the economic system (including both manufacture of goods and primitive accumulation of capital, as well as imperialism) is there to support it and the theory is around to justify it. There are mercantile bourgeois, industrial bourgeois, artisans, proletarians, and peasants in the countries concerned. Yeah, I'd say it's ripe enough.
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I agree all the historical and economic elements are there to justify better end results. I'll take it one step further. It would imply some pretty nasty things about the customer base if Paizo felt that there wasn't a market for players in this hobby wanting to fantasize about starting a democracy.
There's options for players to make decisions that undermine hierarchy in Kingmaker, Curse of the Crimson Throne, and Hell's Rebels, but they have to swim upstream against either the AP as written or game structures that enforce the hierarchy of rulers and ruled. At least we're given these three APs where it's a lot closer to a doable fantasy than most companies' other products. I mean, it's not hard to reject the Board of Governors and that's the first step towards imagining something better than embracing cultural hegemony by reproducing the ruling class ideology. Kingmaker's the closest, requiring only the decision to abandon the Kingdom management subsystem for straight role play; the math of kingdom management really encourage PCs in the leadership slots, especially in the beginning. And, again, it's not canon--just about any fantasy society can fill in your Kingmaker.
Paizo's praiseworthy in their attempts to use canon to force players to deal with trans and non-binary identity and representations that are trying to undermine sexist fantasies, even if it only comes to players being forced to reject it. They lost and gained customers with those decisions and came out strong. I wish they had similar faith in this AP for democracy or even more anti-hierarchical forms.
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Aww man, I don't think the certain CN Umbral Dragon is mentioned? Then again, I guess there isn't really reason for specific Hell's Rebels npcs to be mentioned outside of Silver Raven members and the ex lord-mayor, now the Domina...
Anyhoo, I guess I can understand the history fans liking doing political reforms stuff, but I've at least been more interested in getting rid of evil rulers in favor of good rulers in RPGs than getting rid of monarchies for democracy. (that and I would be cynical whenever American company writes stories about overthrowing current government in favor of democracy :P)
Also, I'm kinda offended about how fast this thread was hijacked by debate on Zimmerwald's preferences and opinions on how fantasy history will follow real life history identically :p Like this seems to be thread about updates to Ravounel and not about how Zimmerwald believes Hell's Rebels should have been about people's revolution. Ye should seriously just create own thread for that if you haven't already, this conversation is now running on multiple different unrelated threads at same time. I wanted to come here to fish information on certain affable Umbral Dragon!
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While I don't think it's a thread hijack to react to canon updates in a thread about updates to canon, I can say that I am ALSO interested in updates that can help me to manage my 1st edition game.
Do the goblins interact with any other groups? Since goblins in 1st edition were basically scavengers with a side of hunting/gathering, I'd be curious as to what's going on there.
Also, what the heck are Revousa Ditches?
And what is going on in Nidal? That's the big honkin' thing I want to know, given how important their reaction is to a New Ravounel and how little information we get about what negotiating with them would be like.
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And what is going on in Nidal? That's the big honkin' thing I want to know, given how important their reaction is to a New Ravounel and how little information we get about what negotiating with them would be like.
To be fair, the gazetteer was of Ravounel specifically. For information about Nidal, there was apparently material written for negotiations or other dealings with them for use in HR book 5 or 6, but it was cut. I believe Mr. Jacobs still has it clogging up a file somewhere.
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And what is going on in Nidal? That's the big honkin' thing I want to know, given how important their reaction is to a New Ravounel and how little information we get about what negotiating with them would be like.To be fair, the gazetteer was of Ravounel specifically. For information about Nidal, there was apparently material written for negotiations or other dealings with them for use in HR book 5 or 6, but it was cut. I believe Mr. Jacobs still has it clogging up a file somewhere.
A stronger Nidal element was cut before the adventures for Hell's Rebels got started. At the time, management wanted Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance to focus more on Cheliax, and the theory was that time spent doing Nidal stuff would have been distracting, so I had the Nidal elements in Hell's Rebels downplayed a bit to the presence of the vampire stuff in town and the umbral dragon/shadow giant element in the hinterlands in book 5.
There's not a file of cut content sitting around, alas, because it was never written. If we some day do a biggie size expansion hardcover version of Hell's Rebels, this could be a cool area to expand upon, though. But no such plans are currently in the works.
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Thoughts on a constitution for the Commonwealth of Ravounel:
The picture that emerges over Book 5 of Hell's Rebels, the LOWG, and Book 3 of Age of Ashes is of a confederation of represented regions and self-governing free cities. The governing institutions are as follows: in the Free Cities, a council of magnates chosen by whatever means the city decides, however it decides it. In Vyre, that means the traditional system of five so-called Kings and Queens. In Kintargo, that means the Silver Council, which is at moment made up primarily of loyalist nobles-cum-industrialists. The Aulorians and Sarinis were likely dispossessed of their titles, estates and other property during the revolution for their disloyalty and are not now found in the Silver Council; the Delronges and the Tanessens likely lost most of their stuff too (the Tanessens in particular are called out as having fallen on hard times) and don't features on the Silver Council, but are still important due to being on the Board of Governors.
The smaller towns named in the gazetteer are not organized as free cities as such (though they might be if they grow enough), but are also basically self-governing. In Tastikka's and Acisazi's case this is because they were isolated from the center in Kintargo until recently; in Cypress Point and Whiterock it's because their nobles are absentee and living the easy life in Kintargo as magnates on the Silver Council. This has allowed for self-government and other forms of co-operation, such as the municipally-owned and cooperatively managed Cypress Point Boathouse (see also Vespam Artisans in Kintargo for a similar albeit private-sector co-op; see also "high wages" paid in Vashnarstill Shipyard for evidence of trade union activity - generosity on the part of management only goes so far in the competitive environment fostered by the Silver Council in driving up wages). These and other towns in their respective regions, defined in the Cheliax Covenant (Ravounel Forest, the Waters, the Isles, the North Plains, and Kintargo itself) select members of the Council of Peers to represent the regions. At the moment these are Manticce Kaleekki the Queen of Delights, Rarrnir the Rokoa of Tastikka, Athannah the elder of Acisazi, Xereliah of Cypress Point, and Jilia Bainilus the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo and Domina of Ravounel. The Lord-Mayor of Kintargo is automatically the Domina of Ravounel.
The Lord-Mayor of Kintargo is elected by the citizens of Kintargo and ratified by the Board of Governors, who also serve as ministers to the Domina.
The administration of justice is primarily a local and municipal affair, and there doesn't seem to be a centralized court system.
I'll do a proper write-up later, though in truth I doubt Ravounel would have gone to the trouble of having a written constitution.
There is scope there for centralizers and democrats (the two go together, don't @ me) to push for reforms, and the settlement doesn't seem so settled as I had feared. Neither does the domination of landed property - I had forgotten how effectively neutered and transformed by urban life the nobility of Ravounel actually were, and how little hold they held over the land. A low-tariff policy is disappointing, but that's a policy choice that can change with time and with conditions.
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I guess its nice that things aren't as hopeless as you initially thought?
Anyhoo, started to wonder about if there was any major tengu presence in Kintargo since there were quite few tengu npcs in Hell's Rebels
(in general I'm kinda sad how tengu seems to show up in every major avistan city, but campaign setting articles never mention them so I always have to fight with gm about playing one :'D)
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Once I heard about some people trying to reestablish the slave trade in Kintargo through an underground group, I immediately started drafting a short story on the Silver Ravens busting heads trying to track down the villains.
Apparently they are currently busy adventuring in Darklands with Shensen though
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Once I heard about some people trying to reestablish the slave trade in Kintargo through an underground group, I immediately started drafting a short story on the Silver Ravens busting heads trying to track down the villains.Apparently they are currently busy adventuring in Darklands with Shensen though
That comes from the text of the AP volume itself.
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That comes from the text of the AP volume itself.Once I heard about some people trying to reestablish the slave trade in Kintargo through an underground group, I immediately started drafting a short story on the Silver Ravens busting heads trying to track down the villains.Apparently they are currently busy adventuring in Darklands with Shensen though
? I mean yeah, thats why I said they are busy in Darklands.
Like by time they aren't busy anymore, the PCs have already taken care of Scarlet Tried in Ravounel unless I'm missing something?
...Still, I like the climax of the short story, so maybe not ALL of the primary Silver Ravens went with Shensen to the Darklands.
Which short story?
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There is scope there for centralizers and democrats (the two go together, don't @ me) to push for reforms
Following up on this thought, the setup stated above is lacking an institution to represent (and thus unify) the people of the whole country as opposed to its constituent parts.
The existing national institutions are the Dominate (note to self: the country's styling should probably "Dominion" or "Domain") and the Council of Peers. The Dominate must remain coupled to the Lord-Mayoralty as long as the Kintargo Contract (thus the Cheliax Covenant) exists. Presumably, the Domina is the commander in chief of the army and navy. But the Kintargo Contract doesn't recognize or vest any power in the Domina—it vests the power to veto Chelish military intervention in the Lord-Mayor. It would make no sense for the two positions to be separate. However, the Lord-Mayor has specifically municipal functions, and it would not be fair to have the whole people of the country elect a municipal officer for the people of Kintargo, especially not when no other settlement in the country has such a stricture.
With the executive ruled out as a unifying figure, that leaves the legislature. Currently, the Council of Peers represents the regions qua regions, and does not represent the people or incarnate the nation. This can be remedied in one of two (well, three, but we'll get to that) ways: the creation of a popular lower house (call it the Council of Deputies) from whole cloth, or the expansion of the Council of Peers to a more representative body. Specifically, each of the regions represented therein would be treated as a multi-member district with the number of representatives according to population. Of the two, the latter seems better to me; Ravounel doesn't really need to be federal given its compactness of both its territory and its economic interests. The national autonomy of Tastikka and Acisazi, which is currently protected by their representatives holding their regions' seats in the Council of Peers (and which is vulnerable to some other Peers taking their places as representatives of their regions), can be protected by chartering them as free cities. The third option would be to elevate the Silver Council to a national lower house, but that faces the same problems as having the Lord-Mayor elected by the people of the whole country, namely, that it is a municipal institution and elevating it deprives Kintargans of it.
The Council of Peers's name suggests a property qualification either to vote for its members or to serve on it, or both, and that would need to be done away with as well in order to make it a representative body.
I don't think the certain CN Umbral Dragon is mentioned?
Not by name. However, the Ravounel Gazetteer does mention that the Terapassilion is populated by "umbral dragons and shadow giants." Ithanothaur is almost certainly still around, and if the description is literal, probably got himself a mate and a brood. And that either his mate brought replacement shadow giants to be her servants, or that the Gazetteer assumes the PCs left the ones they found there alive.
It's just a writing project I'm working on. I started once I heard about the Scarlet Triad trying to establish an underground slavery ring in Kintargo. But once the AP reached that point, it was further established that the Silver Ravens who freed Kintargo in Hell's Rebels were exploring the Darklands with Shensen.
So I'm tweaking the short story I'm writing so that only one of the Silver Ravens is still in Kintargo while the rest of Ravens are in the Darklands.
Ah, gotcha. I missed your earlier post where you first said that you were writing a story.
I pay attention good!|
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Thoughts on a constitution for the Commonwealth of Ravounel:
Been rethinking this. What I ought to have noticed earlier is that Ravounel's is more or less a provisional government - a patchwork of ad hoc arrangements in the absence of a constitution. And in so doing I had mistaken the roles of various bodies. And I have also come up with a roster of who's who. To wit:
Ravounel
The Council of Peers is the de facto upper house of the national legislature. It is composed of representatives of the regions named in the Kintargo Contract: for Kintargo the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo, Jilia Bainilus; for the Isles Vyre's Queen of Delights, Manticce Kaleeki; for the North Plains the Mayor of Cypress Point, Xerelilah;* for the Waters the Elder of Acisazi, Athannah Quhurill; and for Ravounel Forest the Rokoa of Tastikka, Rarrnir. The Council of Peers elects the Dominus/Domina from among its membership as the national executive and to preside over its meetings, and has elected Bainilus.
The Silver Council is formally charged with drafting a constitution for the Dominion of Ravounel, and is de facto both the lower house of the national legislature and the legislature for Kintargo. Pending elections under the constitution, it is composed of veterans and supporters of the revolution: Rexus Victocora, Canton Jhaltero, Sendi Vashnarstill, Eldonna Aulamaxa, Belcara Jarvis, Shensen, Jackdaw, Strea Vestori, and Hetamon Haace. Mialari Docur used to be a member, but resigned and was not replaced. The Silver Council is a partisan body, with two blocs: the Court of Coin, including Jhaltero, Vashnarstill, Aulamaxa, and Jarvis; and the Firebrands, including Victocora, Shensen, Jackdaw, Vestori, and Haace. The Court of Coin is less numerous but more unified (the Firebrands are made up of affiliate organizations: the Silver Ravens Victocora, Shensen, and Jackdaw; Vestori of the Cloven Hoof Society, and Haace of the Rose of Kintargo), and its members tend to show up to meetings more often (Shensen in particular likes to gallivant). The Silver Council unanimously elected Victocora its Dictator** to preside over its meetings; his allegiance was to the Silver Ravens, but he was also an aristocrat by birth and bearing which made him acceptable to the Court of Coin.
Kintargo
Kintargo's Lord-Mayor is the executive of the city acclaimed/elected by her people, and ratified by the Board of Governors. As stated above, the current Lord-Mayor is Bainilus. In addition to her personal popularity, Bainilus derives her support from the Silver Ravens.
The Board of Governors is composed of Geoff Tanessen, Melodia Delronge, Raenna Solstine, Carliss Mayhart, and Laria Longroad. As the highest-ranking Governor, being a Count, Tanessen is the Principal of the Board and presides over its meetings. Longroad is a Silver Raven while Tanessen and Delronge adhere to the Court of Coin; Solstine and Mayhart are not affiliated with any faction. Not that it matters much, as Bainilus's civil administration and the Silver Council govern the city day-to-day and the Board of Governors has little function other than ratifying the Lord-Mayor. In the absence of any other function, Governors have taken to holding themselves out, both individually and as a panel, as a court of appeal from municipal and circuit tribunals (the former being creatures of Bainilus's administration in Kintargo and the Masks of Blood in Vyre, and the latter being sporadic deputations by the Silver Council; the administration of justice is somewhat lax in the new Ravounel).
Vyre
Vyre's Kings and Queens are Manticce Kaleeki, Mera Bantikere, Pirreta, Delarius Solzakarr, and Simandu. The Kings and Queens are both executive and legislature. Vyre's politics overlap somewhat with Kintargo's, with Kaleeki being sympathetic to the Silver Ravens, but the other Kings and Queens are either factions unto themselves (Bantikere, Pirreta) or suborned by the Church of Norgorber (Solzakarr, Simandu).
Cypress Point, Acisazi, Tastikka
None of these towns is presented as having politics or representation more complicated than a single chief, of whatever title.
* The title is an extrapolation. In The Kintargo Contract she is merely a person held in high regard, while in Tomorrow Must Burn she is called the "leader" of Cypress Point but not given a formal title.
** What? "Domina" in Latin means "lady" or "mistress," and carried the connotation of tyrant. "Dictator" means "speaker," a common enough title for the president of a lower house.
As for Kintargo, there's some updates to things.
- The Court of Coin has been replaced with the new Silver Council, however they're still powerful noble houses and wealthy power brokers. The Kings & Queens of Vyre support the Silver Council but aren't members -though I can see Manticce maybe being on it in her public face as a powerful businesswoman.
- The Order of the Torrent has taken over Castle Kintargo rather than returning to Citadel Vaull.
- The Temple of Asmodeus is being converted into the new seat of government.
Overall this is pretty interesting. It definitely suggests that the "official canon" Ravounel won't end up a democracy like Andoran or similar. It's still beholden to the nobility and...
This is very similar to how our own Kintargo turned out. Except the parts with the temple and Jilia's title. But we're not finished so there's still time for her to be named Domina. I had Jilia approach the Silver Council with the suggestion to use it for government work, but the PCs insist it should become a multi denominational temple, which makes sense I guess.
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Thoughts on a constitution for the Commonwealth of Ravounel:Been rethinking this.
And rethinking further. The party system should not be so simple on the Right. There should be a loyalist/reactionary party, because out-and-out loyalists like Tanessen and Delronge remain in positions of influence, albeit only in Kintargo, and because the Norgorberites in power in Vyre, though again, not on the national level, should have their own grievances with the new government.
I've also been thinking about the composition of the government in game-mechanical kingdom management terms.
Provisional Government of Ravounel (4716+) (in character)
Domina/Dominus of Ravounel
Jilia Bainilus (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Council of Peers
Jilia Bainilus (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Manticce Kaleekii (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Xerelilah (Independent)
Athannah Quhurill (Independent)
Rarrnir (Independent)
Dictator/Dictatrix of the Silver Council
Rexus Victocora (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Silver Council
Rexus Victocora (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Eldonna Aulamaxa (Court of Coin)
Belcara Jarvis (Court of Coin)
Canton Jhaltero (Court of Coin)
Sendi Vashnarstill (Court of Coin)
Shensen (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Jackdaw (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Strea Vestori (Firebrand/Cloven Hoof Society)
Hetamon Haace (Firebrand/Rose of Kintargo)
Lord-Mayor of Kintargo
Jilia Bainilus (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Senior of the Board of Governors
Geoff Tanessen (Conservative/Imperialist)
Board of Governors of Kintargo
Geoff Tanessen (Conservative/Imperialist)
Melodia Delronge (Conservative/Imperialist)
Raenna Solstine (Independent)
Carliss Mayhart (Independent)
Laria Longroad (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Duxotas/Duxotar of Kintargo
Tayacet Tiora (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Kings and Queens of Vyre
Mera Bantikere (Independent)
Pirreta (Independent)
Manticce Kaleekii (Firebrand/Silver Raven)
Delarius Solzakarr (Conservative/Norgorberite)
Simandu (Conservative/Norgorberite)
Provisional Government of Ravounel (4716+) (mechanically)
Ruler: Jilia Bainilus (CG female human aristocrat 9)
Councilor: Rexus Victocora (NG male human aristocrat 2/sorcerer 9)
General: Geoff Tanessen (LN male human aristocrat 2/wizard 6)
Grand Diplomat: Manticce Kaleekii (CN female devil-spawn tiefling aristocrat 2/witch 17)
High Priest: Hetamon Haace (CG male demon-spawn tiefling cleric of Milani 5)
Magister: Iylvana Desdoros (LN female half-elf transmuter 7) *in character a private citizen and Headmistress of Alabaster Academy; gets this game-mechanical role as the closest thing Ravounel has to a minister of education and as an NPC who is highlighted on Kintargo's settlement statblock; politically Independent*
Marshal: Shensen (CG female half-elf bard 8/fighter 4)
Royal Enforcer: Octavio Sabinus (LG male human fighter 5/Hellknight 6) *in character a private citizen and Lictor of the Hellknight Order of the Torrent; gets this game-mechanical role as the closest thing Kintargo has to a head of secret police; politically a Firebrand/Silver Raven*
Spymaster: Mialari Docur (CG female elf rogue 3/sorcerer 4/arcane trickster 2) *in character a private citizen and Headmistress of the Lacunafex; gets this game-mechanical role as the closest thing Kintargo has to the head of a thieves' guild; politically a Firebrand/Silver Raven*
Treasurer: Belcara Jarvis (CG female human aristocrat 3/fighter 6)
Warden: Tayacet Tiora (LN female human investigator 8)
* * *
Lord-Mayoralty of Barzillai Thrune (4715-4716) (in character)
Infernal Magistrix/Magister of Cheliax
Abrogail Thrune II (Imperialist)
Archduke of Ravounel
*vacant*
Lord-Mayor of Kintargo
Barzillai Thrune (Imperialist)
Senior of the Board of Governors
*vacant*
Board of Governors of Kintargo
*vacant*
*vacant*
*vacant*
*vacant*
*vacant*
President of the Court of Coin
Urora Sarini (Imperialist)
Court of Coin
Urora Sarini (Imperialist)
Geoff Tanessen (Imperialist)
Melodia Delronge (Imperialist)
Auxis Aulorian (Independent)
Eldonna Aulamaxa (Independent)
Belcara Jarvis (Independent)
Canton Jhaltero (Independent)
Sendi Vashnarstill (Independent)
Senior Prelate of the Church of Asmodeus
Corinstian Grivenner (Imperialist)
Duxotas/Duxotar of Kintargo
Vannases Trex (Imperialist)
Kings and Queens of Vyre
Mera Bantikere (Independent)
Pirreta (Independent)
Manticce Kaleekii (Independent)
Delarius Solzakarr (Norgorberite)
Simandu (Norgorberite)
Lord-Mayoralty of Barzillai Thrune (4715-4716) (mechanically)
Ruler: Abrogail Thrune II (LE female human aristocrat 2/sorcerer 16)
Councilor: Urora Sarini (LE female human aristocrat 4/bard 5)
General: Geoff Tanessen (LN male human aristocrat 2/wizard 6)
Grand Diplomat: Melodia Delronge (LE female human aristocrat 2/bard 8)
High Priest: Corinstian Grivenner (LE male human cleric of Asmodeus 5/exalted 7)
Magister: Iylvana Desdoros (LN female half-elf transmuter 7) *in character a private citizen and Headmistress of Alabaster Academy; gets this game-mechanical role as the closest thing Ravounel has to a minister of education and as an NPC who is highlighted on Kintargo's settlement statblock; politically Independent*
Marshal: Tombus Regegious (LE male human aristocrat 4/rogue 9) *in character a private citizen and Leader (as far as I can tell that's his actual title; anyway, it fits for the head of a group of Blackshirts) of the Chelish Citizens' Group; gets this game-mechanical role as the closest thing Kintargo has to a bounder loyal to the government; politically Imperialist*
Royal Enforcer: Kyyre Ekodyre (LE female human fighter 6/Hellknight 6) *in character a private citizen and Lictor of the Hellknight Order of the Rack; gets this game-mechanical role as the closest thing Kintargo has to a head of secret police; politically Imperialist*
Spymaster: Canton Jhaltero (CN male human aristocrat 7)
Treasurer: Auxis Aulorian (LE male human aristocrat 7)
Viceroy: Barzillai Thrune (LE male advanced human inquisitor of Asmodeus 15)
Warden: Vannases Trex (LE female human cavalier 10)
* * *
Lord-Mayoralty of Jilia Bainilus (-4707-4716) (in character)
Infernal Magistrix/Magister of Cheliax
Abrogail Thrune II (Imperialist)
Archduke of Ravounel
*vacant*
Lord-Mayor of Kintargo
Jilia Bainilus (Independent)
Senior of the Board of Governors
*vacant*
Board of Governors of Kintargo
*vacant*
*vacant*
*vacant*
*vacant*
*vacant*
President of the Court of Coin
Auxis Aulorian (Independent)
Court of Coin
Auxis Aulorian (Independent)
Urora Sarini (Imperialist)
Geoff Tanessen (Imperialist)
Melodia Delronge (Imperialist)
Auxis Aulorian (Independent)
Eldonna Aulamaxa (Independent)
Belcara Jarvis (Independent)
Canton Jhaltero (Independent)
Sendi Vashnarstill (Independent)
Porcia Victocora (Sacred Order of Archivists)
Senior Prelate of the Church of Asmodeus
Corinstian Grivenner (Imperialist)
Duxotas/Duxotar of Kintargo
Vannases Trex (Imperialist)
Kings and Queens of Vyre
Mera Bantikere (Independent)
Pirreta (Independent)
Manticce Kaleekii (Independent)
Delarius Solzakarr (Norgorberite)
Simandu (Norgorberite)
Lord-Mayoralty of Jilia Bainilus (-4707-4715) (mechanically)
Ruler: Abrogail Thrune II (LE female human aristocrat 2/sorcerer 16)
Councilor: Belcara Jarvis (CG female human aristocrat 3/fighter 6)
General: Geoff Tanessen (LN male human aristocrat 2/wizard 6)
Grand Diplomat: Sendi Vashnarstill (CN male human aristocrat 5/rogue 2)
High Priest: Corinstian Grivenner (LE male human cleric of Asmodeus 5/exalted 7)
Magister: Iylvana Desdoros (LN female half-elf transmuter 7) *in character a private citizen and Headmistress of Alabaster Academy; gets this game-mechanical role as the closest thing Ravounel has to a minister of education and as an NPC who is highlighted on Kintargo's settlement statblock; politically Independent*
Marshal: Porcia Victocora (LN female human aristocrat 4/investigator 4)
Royal Enforcer: Octavio Sabinus (LG male human fighter 5/Hellknight 3) *in character a private citizen and Lictor of the Hellknight Order of the Torrent; gets this game-mechanical role as the closest thing Kintargo has to a head of secret police; politically Independent*
Spymaster: Canton Jhaltero (CN male human aristocrat 7)
Treasurer: Auxis Aulorian (LE male human aristocrat 7)
Viceroy: Jilia Bainilus (CG female human aristocrat 9)
Warden: Vannases Trex (LE female human cavalier 10)
I feel like one reason they might not want to drill down on the politics of Ravounel in canonical material is that most groups who played Hell' Rebels will likely want to insert some of the retired PCs into that mix, which is going to change the dynamic considerably.
So at best this is speculation, which is something I find more productive to do in the context of a given series of games.
Like it's a not-implausible scenario in canon that Manticce Kaleekii ends up sweet on one of the SRs, in case that character is very talented at eating esoteric dinner.
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I feel like one reason they might not want to drill down on the politics of Ravounel in canonical material is that most groups who played Hell' Rebels will likely want to insert some of the retired PCs into that mix, which is going to change the dynamic considerably.
We've seen the approach to retired PCs from this campaign: get them out of the way, don't talk about them, and don't have them involved in anything important going forward.
That said, it's easy enough to slot former PCs into roles by displacing the NPCs.
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The Silver Council is formally charged with drafting a constitution for the Dominion of Ravounel, and is de facto both the lower house of the national legislature and the legislature for Kintargo. Pending elections under the constitution, it is composed of veterans and supporters of the revolution: Rexus Victocora, Canton Jhaltero, Sendi Vashnarstill, Eldonna Aulamaxa, Belcara Jarvis, Shensen, Jackdaw, Strea Vestori, and Hetamon Haace. Mialari Docur used to be a member, but resigned and was not replaced.
Attentive readers will have noticed that I left Marquel Aulorian off this list. This is because I assumed that Marquel's siding with the SRs would lead to Auxis's disinheriting him, while Auxis's siding with Barzillai would mean the confiscation of his house's property like that of the Sarinis', Delronges', and Tanessens', and the Church of Asmodeus's. This is possibly an erroneous assumption: Marquel could likely lobby for having some or all of his rights restored for services to the revolution. Because he's not listed anywhere as an SR Unique Ally (that is, a card-carrying SR), his political allegiance would be to the Court of Coin, albeit its left wing given his history as the Poison Pen of Kintargo (Marquel's beliefs likely align with Rexus's even if they find themselves in different parties). This tips the balance in the Silver Council entirely towards the Court of Coin, since with Mialari's departure the factions are numerically equal while the SRs remain plagued by defections and absenteeism.
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I am a crazy person.
* * *
Texts forming the Basic Law of the Dominion of Ravounel as of Rova 4719
The Silver Ravens summon you, Kintargans, to the defense of the true Lord-Mayor: Jilia Bainilus. She has returned—not from Arcadia, but from the murder to which Thrune had betrayed her and beyond which Shadowsquare had enthralled her. Just as she has, Kintargans, shake off the bloodsuckers and stand as heroes. Seize your liberty through the greatness of your courage and the depth of your sacrifice.
We recognize all sons and daughters of Ravounel, without distinction of ancestry, station, sex, color, or creed, as free and equal citizens. We shall make freeholders of serfs and tenants, and free laborers of slaves. Common rule, not Asmodean discipline, shall be the law of the land.
We implore the people of Cheliax to unite beneath the banner of the Glorious Reclamation, and to join Ravounel in the brotherhood of free nations. We pardon you for conquest and subjugation, for the Night of Ashes and the Ruby Massacre, for doghousing in the streets and for tortures in the Castle. Because Thrune tines pierce your flesh too, and devils also damn your prophets to Hell. But woe unto the base, remorseless loyalists among you, defenders of tyranny and barbarism against progress and civilization.
Long live Bainilus! Long live the Silver Ravens! Long live Kintargo! Long live the revolution!
At the present time, the Silver Council consists of:
- Rexus Victocora;
- Laria Longroad;
- Octavio Sabinus;
- Cassius Sargaeta;
- Hetamon Haace;
- Mialari Docur;
- Molly Mayapple;
- Tayacet Tiora;
- Jilia Bainilus; and
- Shensen
The Silver Council shall have the power to elect from its members such officers necessary for the transaction of business. The Silver Council shall have the power to admit members by a majority and expel members by a two-thirds majority.
All magistrates shall report to the Silver Council, or to entities designated by it. All magistrates adhering to the government of Barzillai Thrune are traitors to the nation and are liable to arrest.
The Silver Council shall appoint a commission to divide and distribute as freeholds or enterprises held in joint stock among ex-slaves, ex-serfs, ex-tenants, and fighters for the revolution the lands confiscated pursuant to the Decrees: on the Abolition of Counties, Archcounties, Duchies, Archduchies, and Paranobility; on the Archbarony of Cypress Point; and on the Freedom of Conscience. Any mortgages or liens held by the state on any of the aforesaid properties are hereby forgiven.
The Silver Council shall award Cypress Point a charter as a free town.
"The Cheliax Covenant," as used herein, shall mean the agreement to which this agreement is an un-severable codicil.
"The Empress," as used herein, shall mean Abrogail Thrune, her agents, her heirs, successors, and assigns, and their agents.
"The Church," as used herein, shall mean the Church of Asmodeus, its officers, employees, and agents; its successors and assigns; and their officers, employees, and agents.
"Governor," as used herein, shall mean a Governor of Kintargo as of 21 Kuthona, 4636 A.R., their heirs, successors, and assigns.
"Board of Governors," as used herein, shall mean five assembled Governors, no two of which shall be heirs, successors, or assigns only of the same Governor as of 21 Kuthona, 4636 A.R.
* * *
Ravounel shall comprehend: Kintargo; the County of the North Plains if a resident of Cypress Point authorized to execute agreements on behalf of Cypress Point agrees that Ravounel shall comprehend the County of the North Plains; Ravounel Forest if a resident of Ravounel Forest authorized to execute agreements on behalf of at least twelve other residents of Ravounel Forest agrees that Ravounel shall comprehend the County of Ravounel Forest; Vyre and the County of Ravounel Isles if a resident of Vyre authorized to execute agreements on behalf of Vyre agrees that Ravounel shall comprehend the County of Ravounel Isles; the Coastal Waters if a resident of Acisazi authorized to execute agreements on behalf of Acisazi agrees that Ravounel shall comprehend the Coastal Waters; and any free towns chartered hereinafter within the County of the North Plains, the County of Ravounel Forest, the County of Ravounel Isles, or the Coastal Waters, provided the representative of the County or the Coastal Waters wherein the free town is located has agreed that that Ravounel shall comprehend that County or the Coastal Waters.
The following shall be the boundaries of the County of the North Plains, viz: that line which is drawn from the easternmost source of Thrune's Chance Creek to the peak of Mount Emihym; thence along the crest of the Menador Mountains which divides the rivers that flow into the Arcadian Ocean from those which flow into the Hellmouth Gulf and the Inner Sea, to the westernmost head of Yolubilis River; thence down along the middle of that river to Nisroch Bay; thence along the shore to the mouth of Thrune's Chance Creek in Nisroch Bay; thence up along the middle of that river to its easternmost source.
The following shall be the boundaries of the County of Ravounel Forest, viz: that line which is drawn from the westernmost source of Yolubilis River; thence along the crest of the Menador Mountains which divides the rivers that flow into the Arcadian Ocean from those which flow into the Hellmouth Gulf and the Inner Sea, to the easternmost head of Nyisaid River; thence down along the middle of that river to the Arcadian Ocean; thence along the shore to the mouth of Yolubilis River in Nisroch Bay; thence up along the middle of that river to its westernmost source.
The County of Ravounel Isles shall comprehend all islands within 60 miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel excepting such islands as now or heretofore have been within the limits of Nidal or Hellcoast.
The Coastal Waters of Ravounel shall comprehend all waters within 12 miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel.
The Empress shall have the authority to charter free towns within any of the County of the North Plains, the County of Ravounel Forest, the County of Ravounel Isles, and the Coastal Waters.
The Empress shall not revoke the charters of Kintargo and Vyre.
The Empress shall have the authority to adjust: the boundaries of the County of the North Plains that touch the County of Ravounel Forest, the County of Ravounel Isles, and the Coastal Waters, but the County of the North Plains must always include Cypress Point; the boundaries of the County of Ravounel Forest that touch the County of the North Plains, the County of Ravounel Isles, and the Coastal Waters, but the County of Ravounel Forest must always include Ravounel Forest; the boundaries of the County of Ravounel Isles that touch the County of the North Plains, the County of Ravounel Forest, and the Coastal Waters, but the County of Ravounel Isles must always include Vyre; and the boundaries of the Coastal Waters that touch the County of the North Plains, the County of Ravounel Forest, and the County of Ravounel Isles, but the Coastal Waters must always include Acisazi.
The Empress shall not have the authority to adjust: the boundaries of the County of the North Plains that touch Nidal or the Archduchy of Menador; and the boundaries of the County of Ravounel Forest that touch the Archduchies of Menador and Hellcoast. The Empress shall not annex any part of the high seas, comprehending all waters beyond 12 miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel, to Ravounel.
* * *
No person shall be Lord-Mayor of Kintargo who has not been elected by a majority of the Board of Governors.
The Lord-Mayor of Kintargo shall have the authority to deny a request by the Empress or the Church to enter Ravounel. The Lord-Mayor of Kintargo shall have the authority to exclude the Empress or the Church from Ravounel. The Empress shall not enter Ravounel if the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo has denied her request to do so. The Church shall not enter Ravounel if the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo has denied its request to do so. The Empress shall vacate Ravounel if the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo orders her to do so. The Church shall vacate Ravounel if the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo orders it to do so. This article shall not be severable from the Kintargo Contract.
The Cantons of the North Plains, Ravounel Forest, and Ravounel Isles are created as legal successors of the Counties of the North Plains, Ravounel Forest, and Ravounel Isles. The Canton of the Coastal Waters is created as the legal successor of the Coastal Waters. The Canton of Kintargo is created.
No person shall be Lord-Mayor of Kintargo who has not been elected by a majority of adult Kintargans and by a majority of the Board of Governors.
The Peer for the Canton of Kintargo shall be the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo, shall be known as the Domina, shall preside over the meetings of the Council of Peers, and shall command Ravounel's land, sea, and air forces. The Peer for the Canton of the North Plains shall be the Mayor of Cypress Point. The Peer for the Canton of Ravounel Forest shall be the Rokoa of Tastikka. The Peer for the County of Ravounel Isles shall be Vyre's King or Queen of Delights. The Peer for the Canton of the Coastal Waters shall be the Elder of Acisazi.
Henceforth, no decree of the Silver Council shall become law without the assent of a majority of the Council of Peers, and no treaty concluded by the Domina shall become law without the assent of a majority of the Council of Peers.
Henceforth, the name of the state shall be the "Dominion of Ravounel."
The Communes of Kintargo, Cypress Point, Terapasillion, Whiterock, Revousa, Summershade, Menador, Oakrib, Grundlescorn, Tastikka, Vyre, Deepmar, and Acisazi are created. Each Commune shall be self-governing, but shall not make law contrary to the law of the Silver Council. Each Commune shall elect councilors to the Silver Council in proportion to their population every Even-Tongued Day, with the least-populated Commune electing one councilor. Following the first election in the Communes, the Silver Council shall not exceed the number of councilors elected by the Communes, shall not have the power to expel members except for cause, and shall not have the power to admit members except to fill vacancies.
The boundaries between the Communes shall be approximately equidistant between their centers. The Silver Council shall appoint a commission to determine the boundaries between the Communes.
The free town of Kintargo, the Commune of Kintargo, and the Canton of Kintargo shall be coextensive.
The free town of Cypress Point shall be coextensive with the Commune of Cypress Point. The Canton of the North Plains shall include, and be coextensive with the outer boundaries of, the Communes of Cypress Point, Terapasillion, Whiterock, Revousa, and Summershade.
The Canton of Ravounel Forest shall include, and be coextensive with the outer boundaries of, the Communes of Menador, Oakrib, Grundlescorn, and Tastikka.
The free town of Vyre shall be coextensive with the Commune of Vyre. The Canton of Ravounel Isles shall include, and be coextensive with the outer boundaries of, the Communes of Vyre and Deepmar.
The Canton of the Coastal Waters shall be coextensive with the Commune of Acisazi.
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Well, I know what my little vanguardist, Laria, will be introducing to what I predict will be a very noble-friendly democratic order...
Quick question about Decree on the Archbarony of Cypress Point:
Doesn't House Jarvis have Argo as its seat, which is the southern part of Kintargo? What would happen to them?
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Well, I know what my little vanguardist, Laria, will be introducing to what I predict will be a very noble-friendly democratic order...
That's the idea.
Quick question about Decree on the Archbarony of Cypress Point:
Doesn't House Jarvis have Argo as its seat, which is the southern part of Kintargo? What would happen to them?
The way I envisioned the drafters envisioning it working, the Jarvises would be undisturbed, except that they would be left without overlords due to the abolition of Counties. But it is potentially more complicated than that.
So there are some interlocking parts here that aren't necessarily clear - a problem with uncodified constitutions that I'm glad to see I've accurately reflected. I've said elsewhere that I reckon the Tanessens are the Counts of Ravounel Isles and the Aulorians the Counts of the North Plains. The Counts of Ravounel Isles, naturally enough, have among their territory Argo Isle in the mouth of the Yolubilis River. The Barons Argo (House Jarvis) are therefore vassals of the Counts of Ravounel Isles. Not that either House has much in the way of feudal rights within Kintargo itself, given that it is a chartered free town. Southern Argo Isle is another matter.
That said, as Kintargo spread across the river, the Chelish crown adjusted the County of Ravounel Isles's border (whether pursuant to the authority granted by the Kintargo Contract, or earlier law, depending on whether this growth took place before or after the Civil War - probably the latter) to include the land encompassed by the city's new walls. The Barony Argo was not expanded, and the new districts of Villegre, the Greens, and Yolubilis Harbor weren't enfiefed to anyone in particular; the land there was simply held and traded privately. This permitted the generally higher level of economic development in Yolubilis Harbor as compared to Old Kintargo and Jarvis End.
What the Decree on the Archbarony of Cypress Point actually does is take advantage of a weak, short-sighted aristocrat to expropriate large tracts of countryside in exchange for some largely illusory feudal rights (since unlike the Barony Argo, the Archbarony Kint stops at the city walls) and comparatively few urban properties in the Greens, Yolubilis Harbor, and Villegre (including a second mansion in the Greens and so-called Tanessen Tower in Alabaster Academy which shows up in Tomorrow Must Burn). More importantly, and what makes it part of the Basic Law, is that it establishes the authority of the Silver Council both to hear petitions and to conduct land reform on this scale.
But "right bank of the Yolubilis River" is somewhat ambiguous on its face. First, the right and left banks of a river are designated as if by a person sitting in a boat on the river and looking downstream. Thus, the left bank is the bank where, if you started walking away from the river, you'd hit Ravounel Forest or the Dismal Nitch or Cape Dis or the Arcadian Ocean; while the right bank is the bank where, if you started walking away from the River, you'd hit the Menador Mountains or Nidal or Nisroch Bay. But where does a "bank" begin? Does it begin in the middle of the river's channel, or at the line where the river meets land, that is, at the bank itself? If the latter, then Archbarony Kint encompasses only the terra firma in the districts of Yolubilis Harbor, the Greens, and Villegre; if the latter, it could potentially include ex-Tanessen properties throughout Argo Isle. This is because the branch of the Yolubilis that separates Argo Isle from the mainland on the right bank is less wide than the branch that separates Argo Isle from the mainland on the left. A line drawn through the middle of the river would ordinarily follow the broader channel. Given this ambiguity, there is almost certainly a lawsuit between Houses Jarvis and Aulamaxa about where the line should be drawn. New York and New Jersey had a similar dispute over Staten Island that took literally hundreds of years to resolve in the courts (though the facts on the ground were that Staten Islanders paid taxes to New York and served in the New York militia when that was a thing).
What would make such a lawsuit even more vexing are the questions of who has the jurisdiction to hear it, and which laws apply. The Basic Law doesn't establish a system of courts at law for Ravounel, so it would likely be held in the first instance by a court of Kintargo. The Silver Council can create other bodies to carry out government, so it can create courts, but it hasn't done so. This lawsuit is in part why the Silver Ravens have blocked the creation of the Board of Governors as a court of appeals. Geoff Tanessen sits on the Board, and allowing him to participate in the decision would essentially allow him to dispose of his former property, albeit within limits. The Silver Council can also hear petitions, and presumably could hear an appeal, but the parties sit on the Council and would have to recuse themselves.
The Manifesto - which I plagiarized wholesale from the Central National Committee's manifesto of January 1863 - promises abolition of the Asmodean Disciplines as the legal code for Ravounel, but there's no decree formally abolishing the Disciplines (except that portion abolishing capital punishment and torture, which indicates that the Silver Council did not intend to abolish the whole codex) or instituting any other code or even principles such a code should follow. So should the court apply pre-Civil War Chelish law, or the Disciplines?
Depressingly enough, it seems as though The Silver Span has reverted back to its original name: Bleakbridge.
Old institutions die hard....?
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Depressingly enough, it seems as though The Silver Span has reverted back to its original name: Bleakbridge.
Old institutions die hard....?
It's a chaotic country, why would people stop calling a thing by its old name, that they're used to (and which honestly sounds more euphonic), just because the government says to? Hell, large numbers of people do that IRL, including me; the span crossing the Tappan Zee will always be the Tappan Zee Bridge no matter how badly Andy wants to honor his daddy.
For another example of Kintargans ignoring government-mandated name changes, there's the People's Temple. Officially, the old cathedral to Aroden and Asmodeus, now used for government meetings, is called something officious, but nobody actually calls it that and I can't even remember it off the top of my head.
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I am a crazy person.
Not THAT crazy, as it turns out. I had accustomed myself to my table's PC's rebellion politics of pseudo-libertarian middle class freedoms with a side of the good nobility are a good thing. So, one of my players--my wife, actually--surprised the heck out of me last night by proposing this draft proposal for post-revolutionary Kintargo:
Article I – Persons are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions can be founded only on the common good. All persons have certain, natural, inherent, and inalienable rights, amongst which are: the enjoying and defending of life and liberty; acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.
Article II – The goal of any political association is the conservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of persons. These rights are liberty, property, safety and resistance against oppression.
Article III – The principle of any sovereignty resides essentially in the City. No body, no individual may exercise any authority which does not proceed directly from the city.
Article IV – Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each person has only those borders which assure other members of the society the fruition of these same rights. These borders can be determined only by the law.
Article V – The law has the right to forbid only actions harmful to society. Anything which is not forbidden by the law cannot be impeded, and no one can be constrained to do what it does not order.
Article VI – The law is the expression of the general will. All the citizens have the right of contributing personally or through their representatives to its formation. It must be the same for all, either that it protects, or that it punishes. All the citizens, being equal in its eyes, are equally admissible to all public dignities, places, and employments, according to their capacity and without distinction other than that of their virtues and of their talents.
Article VII – No person can be accused, arrested nor detained but in the cases determined by the law, and according to the forms which it has prescribed. Those who solicit, dispatch, carry out or cause to be carried out arbitrary orders, must be punished; but any citizen called or seized under the terms of the law must obey at once; he renders himself culpable by resistance.
Article VIII – The law should establish only penalties that are strictly and evidently necessary, and no one can be punished but under a law established and promulgated before the offense and legally applied.
Article IX – Any person being presumed innocent until they are declared culpable if it is judged indispensable to arrest them, any rigor which would not be necessary for the securing of their person must be severely reprimanded by the law.
Article X – The people have a right to hold themselves, their houses, papers, and possessions free from search and seizure, and therefore warrants without oaths or affirmations first made, affording a sufficient foundation for them, and whereby any officer or messenger may be commanded or required to search suspected places, or to seize any person or persons, their property, not particularly described, are contrary to that right, and ought not to be granted.
Article XI – No one may be disquieted for their opinions, even religious ones, provided that their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law.
Article XII – The free communication of thoughts and of opinions is one of the most precious rights of the people: any citizen thus may speak, write, print freely, except to respond to the abuse of this liberty, in the cases determined by the law.
Article XIII – The guarantee of the rights of the people and of the citizen necessitates a public force: this force is thus instituted for the advantage of all and not for the particular utility of those in whom it is trusted. That government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit, protection and security of the people or community; and not for the particular emolument or advantage of any single person, family, or set of people.
Article XIV – For the maintenance of the public force and for the expenditures of administration, a common contribution is indispensable; it must be equally distributed to all the citizens, according to their ability to pay.
Article XV – Each citizen has the right to ascertain, by themselves or through their representatives, the need for a public tax, to consent to it freely, to know the uses to which it is put, and of determining the proportion, basis, collection, and duration.
Article XVI – All power is inherent in and consequently derived from the people; therefore all officers of government are their trustees, and servants, and at all times accountable to them. The society has the right of requesting an account from any public agent of its administration.
Article XVII – The people have the right to the defense of themselves and the state; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
Article XVIII – Any society in which the guarantee of rights is not assured, nor the separation of powers determined, has no constitution.
Article XIX – Property being an inviolable right, no one can be deprived of private usage, if it is not when the public necessity, legally noted, evidently requires it, and under the condition of a just and prior indemnity.
This sparked a lot of debate. One strand was on whether to trust the Town Council or to set up opposing structures, centered essentially on whether people are essentially good or not. (Without breaking the board's rules, the players were concerned about corruption, vote buying, and undue influence of the rich and powerful, esp. spellcasters.) Another strand was on whether to have an executive branch and how strong of a one, with proposals including a strong mayor, a weak one, a war council, a war subcommittee, or simply let the bureaucracy implement what the Town Council proposes. The player of the heretical cultist PC floated a proposal a Religious Council as a counter-balancing House of Lords or something.
The party ended up agreeing on a snap election of an ad hoc Constitutional Congress with representation by district weighted by population: 1 representative for Castle Kintargo district, 1 for Yolubilis Harbor, 2 of each of The Greens, Temple Hill, and Jarvis End districts, and 3 for each of Old Kintargo, Villegre, and Redroof. NONE of the PCs are running, agreeing to serve as advisors only. They agreed the Congress must vote on the executive branch issue and on term limits.
Of course, my wife's PC has a +34 to her diplomacy score, so the election's debates are likely to be centered on this proposal.
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Not THAT crazy, as it turns out. I had accustomed myself to my table's PC's rebellion politics of pseudo-libertarian middle class freedoms with a side of the good nobility are a good thing. So, one of my players--my wife, actually--surprised the heck out of me last night by proposing this draft proposal for post-revolutionary Kintargo:
** spoiler omitted **...
Isn't that just the animating spirit of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, though? The Revolution only radicalized later.
I kid, I kid. It's good to see your players debating constitutional questions. I don't remember if you've thrown out the Kintargo Contract or not, but if not, I'm sure it'll be fun as a GM to throw it in as a wrench and see how the players react.
There's that, plus a smidge of Pennsylvania and Massachusetts' compacts, and the Bill of Rights, I'm told. And yeah, I did have them discover the Kintargo Contract to end the session...
What I'm curious about is how/if magic changes any of this stuff or if it just emphasizes the need for absolute rights of the many in the face of the powerful few.
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What I'm curious about is how/if magic changes any of this stuff or if it just emphasizes the need for absolute rights of the many in the face of the powerful few.
There is absolutely a role for the existence of magic in reinforcing conservative arguments about natural hierarchies. But the arguments themselves are basically the same, and the evidence isn't that much more convincing. After all, a wizard or magus or alchemist or bard doesn't come by their magic by divine election or dint of birthright - they attain it through study, and if Kintargo is dedicated to anything, it's making the fruits of culture available to the masses. Disseminating magic can be just as powerful as mass literacy was in empowering people.
If you're talking about the practical ability of the state to protect enshrined rights in the face of potential subversion, well, that's just a magic arms race and that's a problem every state in this setting faces.
So no, I don't think magic (or D&D-style magic, anyway), changes all that much about what democratic rights people are likely to demand, or be granted.
One thing about the nature of magic is that magical things tend to go the way of whoever locally has the most of it (I mean, we have three countries in the inner sea named for particular archmages.)
The bulk of Kintargo's magical assets post Hell's Rebels are distributed through the organization that won Kintargo's independence, and whatever happened to the SR's in the interim they are most likely not complete hypocrites and will oppose magic being used to reinforce hierarchies.
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Here's a change no one in the thread has noted (though I alluded to it in the excerpt from the Kintargo Contract in my July 17, 2020 post). In the Tomorrow Must Burn map, Ravounel's eastern frontier is placed about thirty miles east of where it is placed anywhere else, including the map in The Kintargo Contract but also the Cheliax maps in the Inner Sea World Guide and Cheliax, the Infernal Empire, the map of Nidal in Nidal, Land of Shadows, and the poster maps associated with the Lost Omens World Guide. In all the latter maps, the frontier is more or less a north-south line, with at most a bit of a negative slope - in the Tomorrow Must Burn map, it has a pronounced curve, following a small river (I call it Thrune's Chance Creek, after the Nidalese hamlet on the north bank) more east than south before dipping south.
So has there actually been a shifting of the frontier, or does the Tomorrow Must Burn map show a territorial claim that Ravounel has on Nidalese territory (probably grounded in the Kintargo Contract, which sets Ravounel's frontiers)? If so, it really should be a subject of the negotiations in Tomorrow Must Burn, but it's never called out as such (the book hints that the negotiations are focused more on economic integration and in particular calls out the Nidalese attempting to sell Ravounel on velstrac/kyton labor). Certainly there's been no war over the territory, we'd have heard about it. If there has been a shifting of the frontier, what did Ravounel give up in exchange for the thirty-mile buffer with Nidal?
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All my players are leftists and I'm an anarcho-socialist, this is going to be a worker-run form of representative democracy by the time they're done.
Bully for you. Where did you find workers? Almost all of the NPCs given characterization are szlachta or petit-bourgeois (artisans, shopkeeps), and a very few are slaves and lumpen.
Did you end up developing a bunch of the faceless masses in Yolubilis Harbor (Clenchjaws' patrons, longshoremen, sailors, shipwrights, etc.)? Or inventing factories out of whole cloth (it's funny because these would likely be textile mills)?
(Also, how did you find a bunch of leftists willing to play Pathfinder, of all things?)
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(Also, how did you find a bunch of leftists willing to play Pathfinder, of all things?)
What?
Why wouldn't people with left-leaning (or very far over to the furthest left possible) not want to play Pathfinder?'Cause if there's some reason why they wouldn't I don't think any of the people I've <i>ever</i> played with has seen this reason you imply and I'd be shocked if any of them were even remotely right-wing.
Oh, and for your question of "Where did you find workers?" you're aware that this is a game and that people can do whatever they want and use whatever NPCs they want to make up, right?
Like, this isn't real life. The book presents a city of 11,900 people, 5,000+ of which join the rebellion by the end... You think NONE of those people would be workers? You think that only the fleshed out NPCs are the ones that are going to be used in a game?
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I'm quite far on the left if many regards and so are my players. Maybe Zimmy means "actual communists" or something like that? Though I don't get why they wouldn't play the game.