Dragon Claws have the Morph trait and gives you finesse claws that deal 1d4 damage plus 1d6 energy that scales.
Bestial Mutagen has the Polymorph trait gives you a jaw and claws attacks, an item bonus, and scaling damage dice.
Effects that slightly alter a creature’s form have the morph trait. Any Strikes specifically granted by a morph effect are magical. You can be affected by multiple morph spells at once, but if you morph the same body part more than once, the second morph effect attempts to counteract the first (in the same manner as two polymorph effects, described in that trait).
Your morph effects might also end if you are polymorphed and the polymorph effect invalidates or overrides your morph effect. The GM determines which morph effects can be used together and which can’t.
You can both be affected by Dragon Claws and Bestial Mutagen, but what happens to the claws?
What do you get?
1. Only the effect of the last feature you used
2. A mix of effects depending on what you last used e.g. mutagen + Dragon claws you get 1d4 damage claws + energy damage + item bonus
3. Mutagen damages dice and item bonus + additional energy damage dice.
As the rules you posted say: "the second morph effect attempts to counteract the first". So you roll and see which effect wins, and the losing effect ends.
One's a Morph effect and one's a Polymorph effect, so that kind of counteracting doesn't occur. Polymorph auto-wins if there's a conflict, but whether there's a conflict is subject to GM's interpretation.
TL:DR: I think there is a conflict, and the Polymorph overrides.Reasonably, it seems the second set of claws should override the first. That's the effect that last applied alterations to your hands. Since both claws give what's appropriate for their level, it shouldn't be an issue. But...
Mechanically, order of operations seldom if ever matter when stacking in PF2. In which case Polymorph wins out (as the rules state). You'd have bestial hands (et al), the alchemy's ongoing effects being too strong for a mere Morph effect to alter.
If there were a part of the body not affected by a Polymorph (like the upper body if you became a Centaur) then Morph effects would work there, but not on the horse portions. (Assuming you didn't start as a horse!) You could even have multiple Morph effects (as stated in the rules) if they weren't trying to morph the same parts.
Oddly, this case also features energy. I venture it's an aspect of the dragon-physicality of that claw, so I'd say the energy doesn't work with a bestial claw. Mechanically, the dragon claw has low damage for a claw for a reason: to balance w/ the energy on it (which scales).
To get a bestial claw (which also scales; w/ item level) and a scaling energy attack (made to balance w/ a small, non-scaling claw) would imbalance those abilities.
Thanks, that's what I feared. The issue is that Natural Attacks cannot receive any boost like normal weapons can. For example you cannot use Bespell Weapon, Magic Weapon, use poison or Poison Weapon, Energy Mutagen, Twin Takedown, etc. They all apply only to weapons you are wielding making unarmed attacks a trap option in general.
Even more so for a Draconic bloodline Sorcerer who can never enhance his Dragon Claws afaict (Bespell Weapon doesn't work and Magic Fang is on the Primal spells list).
Sure, I know runes work, all the other effects that I cited don't.
(...) Bespell Weapon, Magic Weapon, use poison or Poison Weapon, Energy Mutagen, Twin Takedown, etc. They all apply only to weapons you are wielding (...)
And more: Double Slice, Lunge, Twin Party, Disarming Stance, etc.
Basically all the two-weapon fighting feats do not work with unarmed attacks except monk flurry preventing from getting more attacks, or any feature that adds to weapon damage except runes with the handwraps.
You can build most of a Dragon Disciple now via Barbarian or Sorcerer, depending on which aspect you wanted to emphasize. I'm not sure what more Paizo could add that they would add, since we won't be seeing stat bumps.
Maybe Draconic Frenzy (like dragons have)? Senses? Longer durations?
I agree claws aren't meant to be primary for a full-caster, nor should they ever be comparable to full casting. So if you want a good dragon-claw PC, start w/ a martial chassis & take the Sorcerer MCD. Since the claws are finesse, a Rogue-Thief works great in this instance. The other martials need a bigger weapon die, but the Rogue's bonus damage is balanced for having a lower die.
I would be willing to bet when they come out wit the Dragon Disciple archetype they will get a feat very similar to flurry of blows that applies to their claw attacks. I wouldn't be surprised to see other feats that will make the claws a focus of combat for them either. Dragon Disciple always felt like an iconic prestige class, and one of the few early ones that worked well.
That would be pretty cool, I really hope you're right!
Yes, at the moment claws are not going to be a primary attack form for the Sorcerer. It seems to me they are more likely intended to be something the sorcerer can do as a third action then as the focus of the character's attacks. And with not getting expert in Unarmed until 11th, that seems intentional.
All the problems I listed for "natural attacks" are not specific to the sorcerer. Sure I understand they are not meant to be a primary attack form for the Sorcerer, but the issue is that they are sub-par choices on pretty much every front because of the limitation that feats and other abilities only apply to weapons you are wielding. So it's the same problem for Druids with Wild Morph, Alchemists with Bestial Mutagen, Barbarians with Animal instinct, etc. The only ability that works with unarmed attacks is the Monk's Flurry which you can only take for non-monks as a dedication at 10th level which is really late.
For Draconic sorcerers, it's even worst because their initial focus spell doesn't even synergise with their feats and spells i.e. Bespell Weapon, Magic Weapon making Draconic a pretty poor bloodline choice.
You can build most of a Dragon Disciple now via Barbarian or Sorcerer, depending on which aspect you wanted to emphasize. I'm not sure what more Paizo could add that they would add, since we won't be seeing stat bumps.
Maybe Draconic Frenzy (like dragons have)? Senses? Longer durations?I agree claws aren't meant to be primary for a full-caster, nor should they ever be comparable to full casting. So if you want a good dragon-claw PC, start w/ a martial chassis & take the Sorcerer MCD. Since the claws are finesse, a Rogue-Thief works great in this instance. The other martials need a bigger weapon die, but the Rogue's bonus damage is balanced for having a lower die.
do note that Thief doesn't get his "dex to damage" with natural attacks or unarmed, since they aren't weapons.
He only gets dex to damage with actual "weapons".
Sad face... :(
Don't yet understand Paizo's reasoning of separating the unarmed & weapons. Likely there's a loophole I haven't seen that they're closing because that's a specific difference from PF1 (& earlier) in many cases.