Do level 5 Ruffian Rogues apply the Critical Specialization twice?

[Strill]

Ruffians get the critical specialization effect once from their Racket, and again from Weapon Tricks. Does this mean they can apply the critical specialization effect twice on critical hits with a finesse/agile weapon?

[Edge93]

No.

[Colette Brunel]

It seems strange to me that a ruffian rogue gets a special benefit that applies only from 1st to 4th (critical specializations), but said benefit no longer exists compared to other rogues from 5th onwards.

As it stands, given that finesse trip weapons work for Dexterity-based trips, the only real combat niche a ruffian rogue has is sneak attacking with a longspear.

[Brew Bird]

Colette Brunel wrote:

It seems strange to me that a ruffian rogue gets a special benefit that applies only from 1st to 4th (critical specializations), but said benefit no longer exists compared to other rogues from 5th onwards.

As it stands, given that finesse trip weapons work for Dexterity-based trips, the only real combat niche a ruffian rogue has is sneak attacking with a longspear.

If I'm reading it right, I think the intent of Weapon Tricks is that you gain critical specialization only with agile and finesse simple weapons, and also those non-simple weapons listed (sap, shortbow, etc.) The Ruffian then gets critical specialization both earlier, and with all simple weapons, not just agile or finesse ones.

Granted, it seems like something worthy of dev clarification. My reading would mean that only Ruffians can gain critical specialization with crossbows, which seems odd.

[Squiggit]

Brew Bird is right, standard rogue specialization is with "an agile or finesse simple weapon or any of the listed weapons" which are the rapier, sap, shortsword and shortbow.

Ruffian gets critical specialization with Club, Longspear, Mace, Morningstar, Spear, Staff, Crossbow, Hand Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Javelin and Sling and the regular Rogue does not.

[Colette Brunel]

Yes, so the ruffian rogue receives a front-loaded benefit: critical specializations right at 1st, rather than at 5th. From 1st to 4th level, a ruffian is enjoying a meaningful benefit that, say, a thief does not have.

At 5th level, the relative advantage disappears, and one is left wondering why they chose a ruffian build over a thief build. At that point, from a mechanical perspective, all the ruffian has to their name is longspear sneak attack builds. Maybe that is fine if the plan was to wield a longspear to start with, but for any other ruffian weapon setup, the benefits over a thief rogue are slim at best.

There is very little support for ranged weapon rogues as far as class feats are concerned (Felling Shot at 12th, for the most part). This is mostly because of how hard it is to land ranged sneak attacks, short of someone else constantly knocking enemies prone or using bottled lightning.

[Midnightoker]

I disagree that the relative advantage disappears. The critical specialization affects for weapons are vastly different depending on group. If all specialization effects were identical then you’d be right, but they aren’t.

Plus there’s the fact that it enabled a whole group of weapons the rogue wouldn’t be allowed to use before, which means they can invest earlier.

[masda_gib]

The benefit doesn't disappear and is not limited to Longspear.

A Ruffian gets Sneak and Crit. Spec. with Club, Morningstar, Mace... so with 1d6 1h weapons that can deal any damage type. Lethal 1d6 bludgeoning weapons with those Rogue abilities is something a Thief never gets.

(And apart from pure mechanical benefit, being able to make this kind of "baseball bat thug" is why some may select to be a Ruffian.)

[Colette Brunel]

I do not know. The sword critical specialization seems like the second most valuable for a rogue, since unconditional flat-footedness until the start of the rogue's next turn helps, especially for something like Opportune Backstab.

The best critical specializations a rogue would want are the flail and hammer critical specializations for knocking people prone, good for flat-footedness and denying mobility, but unfortunately, there are no simple flails and hammers at the moment.

As far as I can tell, the longspear is the best niche that the ruffian has over a thief.

[Midnightoker]

Colette Brunel wrote:

The best critical specializations a rogue would want

You can't just make those statements and expect that to be true. It's not. Just because prone offers FF doesn't mean it's what a Rogue wants.

Most Rogues have a reliable way to trigger Sneak Attack anyways.

I have a Ruffian Rogue right now who's running Spiked Gauntlet with a Morning Star and both of those critical specializations to suit the character's primary purpose in the fight he is in. The fact that combos open up when you allow more options (since there is no penalty for TWF anymore) means they have more diversity in combat.

If you build a character to take advantage of a Critical Specialization or gear your tactics to that, its a solid investment.

You can't compare weapon specialization effects that cause changes in the tactics and layout of a combat and deem them to be less valuable. They're incomparables.

[Colette Brunel]

What are a spiked gauntlet and a morningstar giving you here, exactly? A thief rogue, by 5th level, is sporting a similar setup (and even has the option for Dexterity-based Trips using a finesse trip weapon), except that they do not actually need Strength for it.

The brawling critical specialization is okay, though the club critical specialization is on the more situational side for a rogue.

The longspear gets a ruffian rogue d8s for damage and reach, which is fairly useful for raw damage and more positions from which a flank can be established.

[Midnightoker]

There you go again saying things are "more useful" when you're comparing subjectively different effects that take into nothing about the potential battlefield, opponent, or really nothing but a stride and strike scenario.

Also, I never said the Longspear isn't a good choice, it is, I am saying that you can make effective outcomes with all of the other options that become available to a Ruffian Rogue.

As for what it allows the character to do, it limits the mobility of my opponents and controls their ability to engage me. Slowed 1 is huge, so is a 10ft knockback which amounts to a taxed action if they want to engage again or potentially other effects if we're talking hazards/BFC.

And your point about "they don't need STR" is kinda moot, because the Ruffian Rogue doesn't need DEX. Medium armor and STR focus on Ruffian is extremely rewarding.

[SuperBidi]

Colette Brunel wrote:

It seems strange to me that a ruffian rogue gets a special benefit that applies only from 1st to 4th (critical specializations), but said benefit no longer exists compared to other rogues from 5th onwards.

At 5th level, you get an attribute bonus. Ruffians tend to need more attributes than Thiefs, so this bonus is maybe just there to allow a good startup for Ruffians before they manage to maximize their Dex contribution to AC.

Anyway, I don't think there's an issue with Ruffians. They don't look weak compared to other Rackets. Right now, the only one which is kind of weak is Scoundrel.

[Midnightoker]

SuperBidi wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

It seems strange to me that a ruffian rogue gets a special benefit that applies only from 1st to 4th (critical specializations), but said benefit no longer exists compared to other rogues from 5th onwards.

At 5th level, you get an attribute bonus. Ruffians tend to need more attributes than Thiefs, so this bonus is maybe just there to allow a good startup for Ruffians before they manage to maximize their Dex contribution to AC.

Anyway, I don't think there's an issue with Ruffians. They don't look weak compared to other Rackets. Right now, the only one which is kind of weak is Scoundrel.

I think the big problem with scoundrel is benefits associated with Feinting being significantly less available via Class Feats.

It could be rounded out with a few significant Class Feats to give some action economy back on the Feint.

[Rek Rollington]

The sword’s flat footed crit specialisation is pretty limited to the fact a Rogue needs to have the target flat footed already for the crit specialisation to take effect. Also if you are flanking it provides no further benefit. Where as something like clumsy from the spears stacks with flat footed.

Halfings Rogues have it pretty good with their Filcher’s Fork as unlike most ancestral weapon feats you can apply the crit specialisation without further feats. It’s very good for a Thief Halfling Rogue who puts a returning rune on it.