Understanding disintegrate

[Ravingdork]

Do you need to land the spell attack to deal damage with disintegrate, or is that solely for determining a critical hit (and worse save result)?

This spells is so oddly worded I'm not really sure what the intent was.

[Wheldrake]

It doesn't seem that tough to me.
1) you make a spell attack roll. If you hit, you deal damage, and force a save. If you miss, nothing happens.
2) your target makes a Fort save, and depending on the degree of success, take no damage, half damage, full damage or double damage.
3) if your spell attack roll was a critical success, you ramp up the damage by one level.

Where's the beef?

Though it would be nice, on a miss, for the spell to disintegrate a portion of wall, tree or whatever the terrain is behind your target.

[IOANNIS DOUNIS]

By wording of the spell:

"Make a spell attack."
"You deal 12d10 damage, and the target must attempt a [basic Fortitude save]."

If you hit with you spell attack:

Step 1) Target rolls save:
Since this is a [basic save]:

For target's save:
Critical success -> No damage
Success -> Half-damage
Failure -> Full Damage
Critical Failure -> Double damage

But:

"On a critical hit, treat the save result as one degree worse"

Step 2)

For you spell attack roll vs target's AC:
Critical Success -> Move (step 1) counter 1 step down.
Success -> Calculate damage using above step 1 table.

So we have the final permutations:

Critical success(save) & Success(spell attack) -> no damage
Critical success(save) & Critical Success(spell attack) -> Half-damage
Success(save) & Success(spell attack) -> Half-damage
Success(save) & Critical Success(spell attack) -> Full Damage
Failure(save) & Success(spell attack) -> Full Damage
Failure(save) & Critical Success(spell attack) -> Double damage
Critical Failure(save) & Success(spell attack) -> Double Damage
Critical Failure(save) & Critical Success(spell attack) -> Double Damage

Hope that helps :)

[Aservan]

It's a gambler's spell, and not one I think I would use very often. If you roll crud on the hit roll then the whole thing is moot. You wasted a 6th level spell.

If you're dumb enough to try and use it on a barbarian or monster with a high Fort save, even if you hit it has a chance of doing nothing, or an average or 33 damage. Nothing is worth nothing and 33 is not bad, but probably not worth a 6th level spell either.

You'd think it would be good to use on creatures with bad Fort saves, but most of them have good Dexterity and thus an okay AC. So still not the best use of the spell.

Basically, it's useful for wizard types to hunt other wizard types. There are many more useful ways to accomplish that.

You can destroy objects easily with it, though.

[shroudb]

Aservan wrote:

It's a gambler's spell, and not one I think I would use very often. If you roll crud on the hit roll then the whole thing is moot. You wasted a 6th level spell.

If you're dumb enough to try and use it on a barbarian or monster with a high Fort save, even if you hit it has a chance of doing nothing, or an average or 33 damage. Nothing is worth nothing and 33 is not bad, but probably not worth a 6th level spell either.

You'd think it would be good to use on creatures with bad Fort saves, but most of them have good Dexterity and thus an okay AC. So still not the best use of the spell.

Basically, it's useful for wizard types to hunt other wizard types. There are many more useful ways to accomplish that.

You can destroy objects easily with it, though.

it's one of the best spells to use True strike for.

True strike-Disintegrate is simply mean and bullying all types of opponents...

[Ravingdork]

Except all of the other spells with spell attacks tell you what happens on a crit success, success, failure, or crit failure. This spell doesn't follow that format (well, it does, but only in regards to saving throws, not the spell attack).

It doesn't even indicate that the spell is wasted on a miss. It's also one of the only spells I've seen that requires both an attack and a save.

If the developers are moving away from two-hoop effects of old, why would they do it here?

[WHW]

Because by the point you are using Disintegrate, you are actually excited about having a chance to shoot a Spell Attack, because with abundance of attack bonuses that one can get from friends and beneficial spells, combined with True Strike, you are asking less "Did I miss or did I hit?", and more "Did I hit or did I crit?". So it is basically a chance to degrade opponents Fort save, which is huge.

[Wheldrake]

You're right, it's a two-hoop effect like the PF1 phantasmal killer was.
12d10 looks like a lot of damage, but I suspect it will be survivable for 13th-level PCs or foes. Double 12d10... now that's a lot of disintegration power.

Perhaps the devs felt it was too much not to lock it behind both a targeting roll and a save.

[Aservan]

shroudb wrote:

it's one of the best spells to use True strike for.

True strike-Disintegrate is simply mean and bullying all types of opponents...

Is it? True strike means you've now spent a 1st and a 6th level spell. That's quite a wad to blow from your limited spell slots. You also are using all your actions for this. No moving, casting shield, or any other attempt to not die after casting.

An 11th level (the minimum level to cast disintegrate) a fighter has somewhere around 151 hit points. Even rolling 120 for damage won't kill him. You'd need to be the luckiest SOB in the world to get that roll, however. The average is only 66. Not even half his hit points.

You're not even likely to do that much. A Fighter gets Juggernaut at level 9. He's a master at the save while your spell DC is only expert. You won't get master until around 15 or so. To make it worse, if he rolls a success, he gets a critical success; that means no damage.

Unless you can find a clever setup disintegrate is an idiot tax for an alpha strike. I'm fine with that as rocket tag has never been my preferred play style.

The spell does improve with age, however. As a 19th level spellcaster you are legendary with spell saves and thus likely to be 2 points ahead of many foes. That means more failed saves and more damage. A 6th level slot isn't so precious anymore either. But you're also not likely to kill much with 66 damage. At least it will hurt.

[Xenocrat]

Aservan wrote:

shroudb wrote:

it's one of the best spells to use True strike for.

True strike-Disintegrate is simply mean and bullying all types of opponents...

Is it? True strike means you've now spent a 1st and a 6th level spell. That's quite a wad to blow from your limited spell slots. You also are using all your actions for this. No moving, casting shield, or any other attempt to not die after casting.

An 11th level (the minimum level to cast disintegrate) a fighter has somewhere around 151 hit points. Even rolling 120 for damage won't kill him. You'd need to be the luckiest SOB in the world to get that roll, however. The average is only 66. Not even half his hit points.

You're not even likely to do that much. A Fighter gets Juggernaut at level 9. He's a master at the save while your spell DC is only expert. You won't get master until around 15 or so. To make it worse, if he rolls a success, he gets a critical success; that means no damage.

Cool story, bro. What are the odds for a flat footed, frightened 2 enemy published in the Bestiary, none of which have Juggernaut or anything like it?

[DoggieBert]

Wheldrake wrote:

You're right, it's a two-hoop effect like the PF1 phantasmal killer was.

12d10 looks like a lot of damage, but I suspect it will be survivable for 13th-level PCs or foes. Double 12d10... now that's a lot of disintegration power.

Perhaps the devs felt it was too much not to lock it behind both a targeting roll and a save.

I honestly feel it's too weak because of the fort save. If we compare it to a level 6 Acid Arrow, Disintegrate does a bit more damage (12d10 ~66 v. 11d8 ~49.5), but Acid Arrow also does 5d6 persistent damage and doesn't have the extra save. If the enemy saves on an 11+ Disintegrate is down to 51.15 average damage on a hit, just barely more than average Acid Arrow without taking into account the persistent damage.

[Mark Seifter]

Acid arrow is heightened+2, so that would be a 10th level acid arrow. 10th level acid arrow is for sure a better bet than 6th level disintegrate.

I'm not sure a single spell has taken out more high-profile single targets in my WftC game than disintegrate (starting at the level it was available of course) due to the diviner's true strike shenanigans leading to many critical failures (or failures that become critical failures).

[Eoni]

Aservan wrote:

shroudb wrote:

it's one of the best spells to use True strike for.

True strike-Disintegrate is simply mean and bullying all types of opponents...

Is it? True strike means you've now spent a 1st and a 6th level spell. That's quite a wad to blow from your limited spell slots. You also are using all your actions for this. No moving, casting shield, or any other attempt to not die after casting.

An 11th level (the minimum level to cast disintegrate) a fighter has somewhere around 151 hit points. Even rolling 120 for damage won't kill him. You'd need to be the luckiest SOB in the world to get that roll, however. The average is only 66. Not even half his hit points.

You're not even likely to do that much. A Fighter gets Juggernaut at level 9. He's a master at the save while your spell DC is only expert. You won't get master until around 15 or so. To make it worse, if he rolls a success, he gets a critical success; that means no damage.

Unless you can find a clever setup disintegrate is an idiot tax for an alpha strike. I'm fine with that as rocket tag has never been my preferred play style.

The spell does improve with age, however. As a 19th level spellcaster you are legendary with spell saves and thus likely to be 2 points ahead of many foes. That means more failed saves and more damage. A 6th level slot isn't so precious anymore either. But you're also not likely to kill much with 66 damage. At least it will hurt.

You're forgetting that monsters aren't built like PCs in 2nd. No enemies will have Juggernaut and on top of that, with some buffing, debuffing, and true strike you have a high chance of critting. Even with an average of 66 damage, with a crit that's half of a level 11 creature's HP.

[Aservan]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Acid arrow is heightened+2, so that would be a 10th level acid arrow. 10th level acid arrow is for sure a better bet than 6th level disintegrate.

I'm not sure a single spell has taken out more high-profile single targets in my WftC game than disintegrate (starting at the level it was available of course) due to the diviner's true strike shenanigans leading to many critical failures (or failures that become critical failures).

I'm missing something. I thought True Strike lets you roll twice to hit and keep the highest, ignoring circumstance penalties and flat checks. How does that make someone fail a save? Diviner's sight only works on a willing target so that doesn't help?

For those that care, I'm not saying that disintegrate is bad spell or that you're moron if you cast it. I'm saying that it's a situational spell that requires forethought or luck to be effective. It's not a good alpha strike spell, but has definite potential as a finisher. After your party has loaded up a foe with status affects and you're ready to not miss.

Disintegrate has an opportunity cost. Sixth level is a rich one for spells with Chain Lightning, and Teleport asking for resources. Chain lightning lets you hit as many baddies as you want as long as you only leap 30 feet between targets and doesn't require a hit roll. It only does a base 52 hp per target, and ends if someone critically saves. It's not clearly better, but one I'm more likely to want CL as the damage is close enough and it can damage multiple foes. Chain Lightning is more likely to be useful in my opinion, but circumstance obviously matters. Blue dragons will think I'm cute if cast it.

With my luck I will True Strike with Disintegrate and get a 2 and a 4 on the d20. Now I've wasted the whole round and 7 levels of spells. With chain lightning I've only lost a level 6 slot even if my initial target rolls a nat. 20, and I can run away with my remaining action.

[Arachnofiend]

Disintegrate's saving throw is one degree worse than it is if you crit the spell attack roll, Aservan. So if you crit the spell attack, a success on the save is actually a failure, and a failure is a crit failure.

Also: lol at picking close to the worst possible creature to use disintegrate on to make disintegrate look bad

[Xenocrat]

Cast spells at stupid targets, win stupid prizes.

[Aservan]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Disintegrate's saving throw is one degree worse than it is if you crit the spell attack roll, Aservan. So if you crit the spell attack, a success on the save is actually a failure, and a failure is a crit failure.

Also: lol at picking close to the worst possible creature to use disintegrate on to make disintegrate look bad

Got it. I just assume I will never crit and then am pleasantly surprised when I do... once a year.

As for worst case I didn't choose barbarian or critters like them because then the math is even worse. A 13th level barb can't critically fail a fort save. Nearly any monster large or bigger will have a good fort save. Most monsters won't upgrade success to crit success, but they often have even more HP than an equivalent level PC. So a bit more damage is proportionately less useful. By 11th level you're mostly done with the kobolds, goblins, and orcs part of your career. You've moved on to the trolls, giants, and dragons part.

I chose Wizard vs. Fighter because it's practically the oldest grudge match in the game. Opportunity attacks really ruin a caster's day.

Again I'm not saying it's a crap spell. I'm saying it's merely an average spell when it used to be one of those auto-prep spells. I think that's probably a good thing.

[shroudb]

Aservan wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Disintegrate's saving throw is one degree worse than it is if you crit the spell attack roll, Aservan. So if you crit the spell attack, a success on the save is actually a failure, and a failure is a crit failure.

Also: lol at picking close to the worst possible creature to use disintegrate on to make disintegrate look bad

Got it. I just assume I will never crit and then am pleasantly surprised when I do... once a year.

As for worst case I didn't choose barbarian or critters like them because then the math is even worse. A 13th level barb can't critically fail a fort save. Nearly any monster large or bigger will have a good fort save. Most monsters won't upgrade success to crit success, but they often have even more HP than an equivalent level PC. So a bit more damage is proportionately less useful. By 11th level you're mostly done with the kobolds, goblins, and orcs part of your career. You've moved on to the trolls, giants, and dragons part.

I chose Wizard vs. Fighter because it's practically the oldest grudge match in the game. Opportunity attacks really ruin a caster's day.

Again I'm not saying it's a crap spell. I'm saying I it's merely an average spell when it used to be one of those auto-prep spells. I think that's probably a good thing.

That's why you use true strike.

Rolling twice against a debuffed target has a significant chance to crit.

And at that level, "level 1 spells" are a resource for mainly for true strikes either way. If you aren't using them on your 6th level spells, where will you be using them?

[DoggieBert]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Acid arrow is heightened+2, so that would be a 10th level acid arrow. 10th level acid arrow is for sure a better bet than 6th level disintegrate.

I'm not sure a single spell has taken out more high-profile single targets in my WftC game than disintegrate (starting at the level it was available of course) due to the diviner's true strike shenanigans leading to many critical failures (or failures that become critical failures).

Whoops, thanks for the correction :-)

[Captain Morgan]

Aservan wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Disintegrate's saving throw is one degree worse than it is if you crit the spell attack roll, Aservan. So if you crit the spell attack, a success on the save is actually a failure, and a failure is a crit failure.

Also: lol at picking close to the worst possible creature to use disintegrate on to make disintegrate look bad

Got it. I just assume I will never crit and then am pleasantly surprised when I do... once a year.

As for worst case I didn't choose barbarian or critters like them because then the math is even worse. A 13th level barb can't critically fail a fort save. Nearly any monster large or bigger will have a good fort save. Most monsters won't upgrade success to crit success, but they often have even more HP than an equivalent level PC. So a bit more damage is proportionately less useful. By 11th level you're mostly done with the kobolds, goblins, and orcs part of your career. You've moved on to the trolls, giants, and dragons part.

I chose Wizard vs. Fighter because it's practically the oldest grudge match in the game. Opportunity attacks really ruin a caster's day.

Again I'm not saying it's a crap spell. I'm saying it's merely an average spell when it used to be one of those auto-prep spells. I think that's probably a good thing.

PvP is largely irrelevant. It doesn't actually matter how a Fighter or Barbarian holds up under Disintegrate because your wizard isn't supposed to be fighting other player characters. And given the move away from NPCs following PC rules, it is unlikely that your gonna fight an NPC with that ability.

And while monsters do have a lot of hit points, you aren't supposed to be one shotting them anyway if they are your level or higher. You're supposed to be softening them up so your party can wear them down. 66 damage is a sizable dent in that regard-- more than a quarter of most level 11 creature's HP. Which means if your allies can pump out comparable damage and focus fire they can one round such a creature.

You're right that it isn't an auto pick spell-- you should pick your targets wisely with it and such. But the examples your picking to illustrate it being average feel sort of contrived, which is why folks aren't taking you very seriously about it.

[Ravingdork]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Acid arrow is heightened+2, so that would be a 10th level acid arrow. 10th level acid arrow is for sure a better bet than 6th level disintegrate.

I'm not sure a single spell has taken out more high-profile single targets in my WftC game than disintegrate (starting at the level it was available of course) due to the diviner's true strike shenanigans leading to many critical failures (or failures that become critical failures).

Any chance you could clarify what happens if you fail or crit fail the spell attack roll with disintegrate? The spell doesn't seem to follow the format of other spell attack spells that specifically state the spell fails on a miss.

[shroudb]

Ravingdork wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Acid arrow is heightened+2, so that would be a 10th level acid arrow. 10th level acid arrow is for sure a better bet than 6th level disintegrate.

I'm not sure a single spell has taken out more high-profile single targets in my WftC game than disintegrate (starting at the level it was available of course) due to the diviner's true strike shenanigans leading to many critical failures (or failures that become critical failures).

Any chance you could clarify what happens if you fail or crit fail the spell attack roll with disintegrate? The spell doesn't seem to follow the format of other spell attack spells that specifically state the spell fails on a miss.

unless stated otherwise (like in the Press feats) when you miss an attack action (regardless what attack action that is, melee, ranged, or spell) you simply fail the check.

"Attack rolls are compared to a special difficulty class called
an Armor Class (AC), which measures how hard it is for
your foes to hit you with Strikes and other attack actions.
Just like for any other check and DC, the result of an
attack roll must meet or exceed your AC to be successful,
which allows your foe to deal damage to you."

[ChibiNyan]

shroudb wrote:

Aservan wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Disintegrate's saving throw is one degree worse than it is if you crit the spell attack roll, Aservan. So if you crit the spell attack, a success on the save is actually a failure, and a failure is a crit failure.

Also: lol at picking close to the worst possible creature to use disintegrate on to make disintegrate look bad

Got it. I just assume I will never crit and then am pleasantly surprised when I do... once a year.

As for worst case I didn't choose barbarian or critters like them because then the math is even worse. A 13th level barb can't critically fail a fort save. Nearly any monster large or bigger will have a good fort save. Most monsters won't upgrade success to crit success, but they often have even more HP than an equivalent level PC. So a bit more damage is proportionately less useful. By 11th level you're mostly done with the kobolds, goblins, and orcs part of your career. You've moved on to the trolls, giants, and dragons part.

I chose Wizard vs. Fighter because it's practically the oldest grudge match in the game. Opportunity attacks really ruin a caster's day.

Again I'm not saying it's a crap spell. I'm saying I it's merely an average spell when it used to be one of those auto-prep spells. I think that's probably a good thing.

That's why you use true strike.

Rolling twice against a debuffed target has a significant chance to crit.

And at that level, "level 1 spells" are a resource for mainly for true strikes either way. If you aren't using them on your 6th level spells, where will you be using them?

I may have to do the math on "that significant chance to crit", because at first glance, you have to roll a 20 for this to ever happen. True strike gives you 2 chances at rolling a 20 which isn't "significant". I guess if the enemy is flat-footed it could be a 19 in some instances.

Remember there's no way to add item bonus to this attack, it has some big disadvantages as far as hitting equal level enemies.

[Xenocrat]

A flat footed Balor with Frightened 1 has an AC of 42, so a level 20 wizard crits 20% of the time, 36% of the time with True Strike. Frightened 2 takes that to 25% and 43.75% to crit. A bard or occult Sorcerer with Synesthesia can inflict Clumsy 3 for a 30% chance to crit, 51% with TS. Quit being lazy and play like you’re not trying to die.

[Excaliburproxy]

I could see myself readying disintegrate in a 6th level slot as a level 15 character to totally dust a CR-4/CR-3 minion.

[citricking]

Using pc rules is a valid way to build NPCs, so comparing against player classes is fair.

I missed that acid arrow was +2, I thought it was a good spell. But I guess spells are not meant to do good single target damage, they're much better for aoe.