The PCs were in a cave and had a strong suspicion that enemies were about to jump out from behind a boulder and hit them with arrows. One used the Ready Action to prepare a Strike. Their stated Trigger was initially “if anyone moves to attack us, I will fire an arrow.” I made them be more specific because I felt it was unrealistic that the PC would have complete 360 degree awareness in the cave. Instead, they choose an area the same scope as a Seek Action and I limited the Trigger to that area—“if anyone in that area pops into view” became the Trigger. Now, the player was right, and an enemy did pop out to fire an arrow on their turn (we were already in Encounter Mode). Since the Trigger was satisfied and because the PC had essentially guessed correctly, the Readied Action was set off BEFORE the foe attacked since it had to Stride before it could attack.
We felt the ruling made sense (please let me know if you agree or not,) but it left me with three questions.
1) If the foe was hidden in a way where they didn’t need to move to Strike, then the Trigger would not have gone off, correct?
2) If the player had changed it to “when someone Strikes,” I would have ruled that the foe’s Strike action happens, and THEN the Trigger is set off since the only way the Trigger is satisfied is if the foe tries to make a Strike—meaning I’m rolling to see if it hits. The PC doesn't get to interrupt the Strike, right?
3) Lastly, if the wording was “if anyone goes to Strike me from the designated area,” then their Trigger would go off BEFORE the Strike if the player could see them do so. If the foe was Undetected or even Hidden, then they wouldn’t see the foe getting ready to fire, correct? So the Trigger would not be set off.
In practice, I am not this picky at the table. When players set up Triggers, we usually talk it through together so I’m clear about their intentions and don't get overly hung up on their exact phrasing. Here, I’m just trying to get a clearer understanding of how this works in P2.
Ignoring the problem of your player readying an action outside of an encounter, his trigger could most reasonably be interpreted as "Any creature that is not a known ally becomes visible to me." So, presumably, he can fire his arrow as soon as the action that made a non-ally visible is completed, whatever that may have been.
With the new Exploration Mode rules your player simply isn't allowed to do what they did.
Encounter Mode is normal turn based combat time. If you're not doing that, you're most likely to be in Exploration mode. There are specific actions you can take in this time, which can include being on "lookout" for enemies. Mechanically it doesn't have a specific effect, because everyone is assumed to be doing this, but as a GM you might give a +2 circumstance bonus for being focused on it.
Since perception is used for initiative now, it means when combat does break out he has a better chance of detecting the enemy and potentially getting to act before them in the surprise round.
Letting the player somehow spot the enemy and used a readied action to react just isn't how the rules are intended to work. Stealth should keep the enemy hidden until the end of their movement or until after their attack (depending on what they do) unless the PCs beat their stealth rolls with their perception.
Ignoring the problem of your player readying an action outside of an encounter
As I indicated, we were in Encounter Mode already, and Initiative had already been rolled. The would be attacker was simply Unnoticed, but the players had a hunch that turned out to be correct. Instead of choosing to Seek, they decided to Ready a Strike instead.
Also, I don’t think there are “surprise rounds” in P2.
Lastly, PCs can’t Ready outside of Encounter Mode because of language about the action being “not on your turn” which implies you have to be in Initiative order?
And, you shouldn’t really need to Ready actions outside of Encounters, right? If the player says, “when the orc runs out of the tavern, I’ll Strike,” wouldn’t that just mean when the orc appeared and the PC went to attack, I’d call for Initiative to be rolled?
It was your first sentence ("The PCs were in a cave and had a strong suspicion that enemies were about to jump out from behind a boulder and hit them with arrows.") that suggested to me that you were not yet in initiative -- but it was also clear that that was not the main point of your question either, as the situation you were inquiring about could be (and apparently actually was) set up to occur while you were in initiative.
But I guess the main point should be that you want the trigger to be clear enough that both you and the player would readily agree when it has been met.
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In practice, I am not this picky at the table. When players set up Triggers, we usually talk it through together so I’m clear about their intentions and don't get overly hung up on their exact phrasing. Here, I’m just trying to get a clearer understanding of how this works in P2.
The bolded bit is exactly how it's supposed to work in P2. Well done.
Ignoring the problem of your player readying an action outside of an encounterAs I indicated, we were in Encounter Mode already, and Initiative had already been rolled. The would be attacker was simply Unnoticed, but the players had a hunch that turned out to be correct. Instead of choosing to Seek, they decided to Ready a Strike instead.
Also, I don’t think there are “surprise rounds” in P2.
Lastly, PCs can’t Ready outside of Encounter Mode because of language about the action being “not on your turn” which implies you have to be in Initiative order?
And, you shouldn’t really need to Ready actions outside of Encounters, right? If the player says, “when the orc runs out of the tavern, I’ll Strike,” wouldn’t that just mean when the orc appeared and the PC went to attack, I’d call for Initiative to be rolled?
There aren't surprise rounds in the same mechanical way there were in PF1, but there is a "surprise round" in the sense of the PCs being surprised by the enemy and not prepared. If the PCs are unaware of the enemy (which they were) they probably shouldn't (IMO) be able to ready actions against them. I'm not even sure why you were in Encounter mode if there were no enemies the PCs were aware of.
The bolded is the correct way to handle it. When your PC said "I want to attack an enemy if they pop out" they've not done anything mechanically special. You shouldn't give them a readied action in my opinion. At best you should give them a bonus to the perception/initiative check that happens when the orc does show up and combat starts.
Sorry yes, I guess I shouldn't say stealth roll because NPCs don't roll for stealth anymore, they just have a DC. But it's sort of a weird situation because if the enemy is about to engage then they are going to be using stealth for initiative anyways and will be rolling it.
The whole even is basically, "The enemy is about to attack me and I'm currently unaware, I'm rolling to see if I notice them and can act before them".
Anyways, it's hard to break the habit of using certain verbiage to describe things.
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To me, this seems the most consistent with real world. If I am going to fire an arrow at the first person who puts there head around the corner. It's a ridiculous notion that we would then roll Init and the person might get make three strides before I fired my arrow, because I lost init. That's nonsensical.
I think this is the sort of problem.
Because I think your view is non-sense.
Just because your trying to shoot someone as soon as they come around that corner, doesn't mean you can react quickly enough to do so when you're not even aware of them.
To me it should be handled by:
Perception checks for awareness
If the PCs are unaware of an enemy, they can't do things against them.
Once the enemy acts in a way that breaks stealth or causes awareness (either after an attack or ending their turn out of cover/concealment) then the PCs can react.
So if the PC beats the stealth DC of the enemy they can't react immediately, and would go in initiative turn before the enemy allowing them to do something like shoot them. If the NPC is undetected they get to act first. There is no surprise round anymore, it just goes through regular turn order. If you didn't detect the NPC, you just can't react quickly enough to do anything to them.
Otherwise, you're breaking stealth and giving PCs extra actions by allowing them to ready actions in these circumstances, in my opinion.
Who said I wasn't aware of them? This has nothing to do with awareness. The idea that a normal human can move 75 feet before another normal human can release the string on a bow or pull the trigger on a crossbow is almost as stupid as trying to defend it.
Your response is simply an attempt to defend the rules which fail to handle this situation in a believable way. You've been doing that a lot in these threads, so at least you're being consistent.
Let's review the situation which I was discussing and which seems to have eluded you.
Scenario A
1. We've rolled init. Shooter wins.2. Both sides are aware of the other.
3 Shooter readies action.
4. Target waits for several rounds behind cover--buffing or whatever-- moves and is shot before getting 1' past cover.
Scenario B
1. We have not rolled init.2. Shooter knows targets will be approaching from around corner
3. Shooter declares intent to shoot any target coming around corner.
4. GM rolls Init when target approaches corner both are aware of the other. Target wins.
5. Target moves 75 feet beyond corner before Shooter can even Ready action and shoot, despite Shooter declaring intent to Ready an action before Target was even on the map.
In both situations, the shooter has a weapon ready to to fire before Init is even rolled. But, by not allowing a Ready action before Init, you're requiring someone win Init before being able to fire or even prepare to fire.
Otherwise, you're breaking stealth and giving PCs extra actions by allowing them to ready actions in these circumstances, in my opinion.My example has nothing to do with Stealth or awareness, so I don't know what you're going on about.
I was referring to the OP's situation, which at least implied that the PCs were unaware of the enemy, which is why it's relevant.
Neither of your scenarios reflects the situation as I understand it, which is the PCs had a hunch that an enemy was there, but were actually Unaware (in game terms). The PC wanted to ready an action. They shouldn't be allowed to.
The interesting thing is, by the rules, being aware or unaware works out the same. If the PCs win initiative they get to act first, which can include readying an action.
If the PC loose initiative they will act after the NPC and cannot ready because they haven't had a turn. The difference between starting Aware vs Unaware is that in the Unaware condition the NPC had to be using stealth to try to hide from the PCs and used their Stealth score to roll Initiative instead of Perception.
Part of the issue is the OP had the group in Initiative order when they should have been in Exploration mode (unless I've misunderstood the situation) there were no obvious threats around the PC, which means it's not Encounter mode until the PCs succeed in Perception against the NPCs stealth or the NPC breaks stealth.
Allowing a PC to ready an action in this scenario is basically giving them a free action before they should have one. That's the problem as I see it.
What your complaint seems to stem from is the idea that losing Init means the PCs shouldn't be able to get off the shot because they didn't have time to Ready it before the NPCs moved.
Yes, absolutely, 100% this is the case and the rules support it and it makes sense.
Either you win initiative or you don't. In the situation of stealth initiative also determines if one party becomes aware of the other.
The problem your method has is that everyone should always walk around with a readied action to shoot all time to get that extra attack, which seems fairly obvious that the game isn't intended to be played that way.
In which case the enemy should too? So now how do you resolve which readied action gets to go first in a case where triggers happen at the same time?
Roll initiative and go in that order? Now everyone just start off combat with a volley of readied attacks?
That doesn't at all sound right.
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I would argue the Surprise Round still exists by another name RAW:
Initiative After Reactions
(CRB p498)
In some cases, a trap or a foe has a reaction that tells you to roll initiative. For instance, a complex trap that’s triggered might make an attack with its reaction before the initiative order begins. In these cases, resolve all the results of the reaction before calling for initiative rolls.
+Plus+
Ready
(CRB p470)
You prepare to use an action that will occur outside your turn. Choose a single action or free action you can use, and designate a trigger. Your turn then ends. If the trigger you designated occurs before the start of your next turn, you can use the chosen action as a reaction (provided you still meet the requirements to use it). You can’t Ready a free action that already has a trigger.
=Equals=
Perhaps there should be an Exploration Tactic called Set Ambush?
Set Ambush
This exploration tactic may be used by one side who has the advantage of being unnoticed by the opposing side, to catch them unawares with readied strikes. When a side first sets an ambush, they may prepare an area they think the other side will pass through (such as a road, river, or choke-point in a dungeon), or, they may simply wait in cover. At least one person on that side must use the Scout exploration activity, waiting for the other side to approach.
When the other side approaches, any characters using the Scout exploration activity (on either side) roll Perception. If the side that originally set the ambush wins this check, they may choose to Ready a Strike (during Exploration mode) by deciding upon a Trigger (such as "they approach to within 30 feet of such-and-such square"), granting them the Ambush reaction.
Ambush
(Reaction)
Trigger: Choose a trigger as if Readying to Strike.
Effect: Roll initiative. During the first round of the encounter, you are considered to have readied a strike action with the trigger you set.
While I am definitely in the camp of being careful about avoiding a method of game play that results in piles of readied actions becoming standard, instead of rare and very situation specific, I don't think there would be much risk of people trying to use constantly readied actions as an exploration tactic, since it would be fatiguing (2 actions to ready), and a fatigued character becomes unable to keep up a full time exploration tactic at all.
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The real question is do we want the Surprise Round - which has been around for 50 years - to cease being a gamable mechanic?
I see three general "tiers":
T1) A full round (or partial full round) where one side gets to act while the other doesn't
T2) A round in which one side has pre-readied actions they may use in addition to normal actions
T3) A round in which one side (generally) acts in higher initiative order than the other
I think its completely reasonable to allow a Readied action against an Undetected or Unnoticed foe if the Trigger is something that reveals their location and the PC is focusing on a very specific area. This is why I talked about the attacker having to Stride first and then fire. Striding out from behind the boulder would make them Observed.
If the player had chosen the wrong boulder, then they’d have been out of luck. Or if the attacker did not have to move before attacking, I would not have allowed the Strike. As I understand it, a Strike could make such an attacker Hidden rather than Unnoticed or Undetected, but that would be AFTER their Strike.
Doesn’t seem that Ready should have an Encounter action trait if it can only be used then? After all, there are Exploration and Downtown action traits.
Bingo! Thank you for posting this as it restores my sanity. Had I seen this earlier (or had it been posted in the Encounter Mode section) it would have ended my discourse with Claxon. I'm relieved to see Paizo did not overlook something so basic.I would argue the Surprise Round still exists by another name RAW:
Initiative After Reactions
(CRB p498)
In some cases, a trap or a foe has a reaction that tells you to roll initiative. For instance, a complex trap that’s triggered might make an attack with its reaction before the initiative order begins. In these cases, resolve all the results of the reaction before calling for initiative rolls.
The way I'm reading this rule still doesn't support the PCs in this situation having a readied action. They're not the ones setting an ambush, the NPCs are. So the NPCs should have a readied action, so they get to do something no matter, and then potentially could go first (if they roll better on init).
And this would work for PCs if they were the ones attempting to ambush, but that wasn't the situation.
Ready an action to try to act before the ambushers is the problem that I have.