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So I was building up an eldritch knight with wizard as the main class, all excited about it. However with the removal of heroism from the arcane spell list and the fact enlarge person doesn’t include an accuracy boost, there is no way for a wizard to be workable as an eldritch knight.
STR 20
Dex 12 (boosted at level 15)
Con 18
Int 20
Wis 18
Cha 10
Reflex: +22 (succeed on a 14)
Fort: +25 (succeed on a 11)
Will: +25 (succeed on a 11)
Skills:
Trained: Occultism, Forest Lore, Deception, Religion
Expert: Athletics, Society
Master: Arcana
Legendary: Medicine
Feats:
Human 1) Versatile Heritage (Light Armor Proficiency)
Human 1) General Training (Medium Armor Proficiency)
Background 1) Dubious Knowledge
Wizard 1) Reach Spell
Wizard 2) Fighter Dedication
Skill 2) Courtly Graces
General 3) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Wizard 4) Opportunist
Skill 4) Quick Identification
Human 5) Natural Ambition (Power Attack)
Wizard 6) Basic Fighter Maneuver (Dueling Parry)
Skill 6) Continual Recovery (expert medicine)
General 7) Incredible Initiative
Wizard 8) Fighter Resiliency
Skill 8) Ward Medic
Human 9) General Training (Streetwise)
Wizard 10) Bond Conservation
Skill 10) Robust Recovery
General 11) Toughness
Wizard 12) Diverse Weapon Expert
Skill 12) Rapid Mantel (expert athletics)
Human 13) General Training (Fleet)
Wizard 14) Advanced Fighter Maneuver (Furious Focus)
Skill 14) Battle Medicine
General 15) Legendary Medic
Class Features:
Background (Hermit)
Arcane Bond
Arcane Thesis (Spell Blending)
Universalist Wizard
Lightning Reflexes
Magical Fortitude
Alertness
Wizard Weapon Expertise
Defensive Robes
Weapon Specialisation
Master Spellcaster
+2 Full Plate AC = 35 = 10 (base) + 6 (full plate) + 2 (training) + 2 (rune) + 15 (Level)
+2 Striking Bastard Sword: +26 (3d12+5)
Spells (Spell Attack +26; DC 36):
Cantrips (5): Shield, Acid Splash (3d6+5, 4 persistent, 3 splash), Detect Magic, Light, Message
1st (3): Feather Fall, True Strike, True Strike
2nd (1): Glitterdust
3rd (3): Blindness, Haste, Haste
4th (2): Enlarge (5 mins +4 status damage), Invisibility
5th (4): Cloak of Colors (1 min blind effect when hit), See Invis (8 hours), Cloak of Colors, Cloak of Colors
6th (3): Chain Lightning (8d12), Collective Transposition, Chain Lightning
7th (3): Energy Aegis (resist all element 5), Freedom of Movement (1 hour), Fly (1 hour)
8th (3): Mask of Terror, Stoneskin, Stoneskin
Someone has kindly done the math on expected AC values based on the bestiary. Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VQdXIJMMeNlkL1ta_b9q_iImAHoujDCYs1W aBJP-Rjs/htmlview#
At level 15 a wizard has a 55% chance of hitting level-1 foes. So against mooks he’s fine (especially if he flanks). Against an elite henchmen or a boss’s right hand man (Level+0) he has a coin tosses chance of hitting (50%) but flanking boosts it to be workable.
In an important fight against the boss (which could reasonably be as high as level+2) he can’t meaningfully contribute as a warrior with a 35% chance of hitting (45% with a flank). He will also be relying on the half damage (or equivalent) entry for his spells as the boss succeeds on anything between a 4-9 (depending on save). Real martials get a 10% accuracy boost on all the above numbers (with fighters getting even higher boosts) which while not great (except fighters), it’s still workable. This means the only way to realise an arcane caster that uses weapons is to multiclass into wizard and take a martial as your main class.
Has anyone spotted anything I’m missing?
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It seems like the caster/martial MC path assumes that your best bet is to hit first and hardest with spells and use your Weapon to clean up/attack debuffed enemies reeling from your spells.
Martial/Caster MC paths seem to assume that you will use spells primarily to buff/utility fix and then in combat prioritize attacking first, at least once, while using 2nd/3rd actions to cast.
Wizards in particular lack the individual big self buffs to boost combat abilities, instead getting a lot of options for battlefield control, condition based debuffing and AoE damage dealing. You can also use your spells to do a fair amount of concealment/flat check defensive things that don't factor as cleanly into DPR calculations because they are so situational.
In PF 2 it is not possible to be equally good (or really bad via PF1) at casting and martial combat. Your base class really pushes you one way or another, thus far. Archetypes may change that some eventually.
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In PF 2 it is not possible to be equally good (or really bad via PF1) at casting and martial combat. Your base class really pushes you one way or another, thus far. Archetypes may change that some eventually.
Having played an eldritch knight in PF1, not getting heroism tripped me up. That and a few select other spells worked well to make an eldritch knight comparable to martials. Even invisibility or blinding an enemy in PF2e doesn’t help as all they do (in relation to attack vs AC) is Make someone flat footed which flanking already achieves.
A shame. Eldritch knights worked out of the box with just the CRB in PF1e and I was hoping you would be able to freely choose between Wizard (Fighter) and Fighter (wizard).
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I would think an eldritch knight should be first a fighter, and only second a spellcaster - via the multiclassing feats. Yes, he'll have only a handful of a wizard's spellcasting powers, but he will be a top-tier martial character.
If you start with Wizard (or another spellcasting class like Sorcerer) then you will never be much of a martial in terms of training and to hit bonusses. But you will have your full panoply of spells.
The sad truth is that a single character can't be best at both. I would expect that even in future releases with other archetypes whose details are as yet unknown, you won't be able to have both full spell access and maximum fighting training and prowess. If you could, nobody would bother with spell-less fighters or martially-weak casters.
Sure. But you didn’t really need that many levels in fighter in PF1e to be an eldritch knight and I thought it would be cool if in the new edition you could achieve the same effect via either class (given how flexible the new edition is described as being) by relying on spells to temporarily boost your effectiveness. Clearly that isn’t the case.
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I think the greater flexibility comes from the multiclassing archetypes. You want extreme martial prowess with some magic thrown in? Fighter, with MC Wizard replacing a few fighter feats. It's not the same the other way round. A wizard with some MC fighter feats simply has a slightly improved weapon training profile, and no addition armor training at all.
Could a future template or archetype include both armor training and weapon training? Sure it could. Will it be on a par with the fighter, even with a few buff spells thrown in? Certainly not.
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Even Warpriest who can start with both armor proficiencies and casting won't be better at melee than say, a fighter or barbarian. Nor should we expect them to be as good while keeping full casting.
What the eldritch wizard can do is not suck entirely and control the field with the right spells. You're already adding more +to hit and +damage than dex wizards, so you got at least a small edge there, and the numbers are in a white room vacuum. If you and the fighter fight the same enemy, can it focus on just you? Now that attacks of opportunity aren't on every enemy, you can even combine touch spells with a swing of your weapon.
If you have the arcane list, you can also for example Dimension Door to an enemy caster and have a high athletics check. Grab him or trip him. Then drop an Antimagic field. The caster won't have weapon proficiency or athletics to resist you, and even if he succeeds the check, he'll burn an action, meaning he can't even run out of the antimagic zone and cast.
I think the issue is being narrowly focused on the old PF1 style of "I attack" or "I full attack" when we got this tasty 3 action combination playstyle open to us.
Edit: My new special maneuver for my elritch knight is to Dimension Door to enemy casters, grab them and then go "Stop hitting yourself." while using their own fist to punch them in their face >:(
You're missing the part where debuffing the enemy and getting buffed yourself tips the numbers in a big way. And just because your spell list doesn't have Heroism doesn't mean the party won't have buffs. I feel like a party without a Divine or Occult caster is fairly rare. Unless you're playing a solo game, buffs are something you should be able to expect.
Failing that, going for Trick Magic Item and some Heroism scroll/wand usage would let you reliably get the buffs for big fights at least, as long as you train in Occultism.
You also have a lot of nice defensive buffs too, which is handy though not great for just hitting things.
TL;DR, just like any other character buffing and debuffing to tip the numbers is a big deal. Just a bit more for you. Honestly I'd be more worried if no-buff/debuff hit rate for a caster (even multiclassing martial) was higher than it is for a boss enemy.
Won't the eldritch knight with Enlarge and a reach weapon also have like 20ft reach?
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It is possible we will see a magus class that bridges the gap between them. The only reason that Eldritch knight worked at all in PF1 was because attack bonuses far outstripped defenses, so that trailing the fighter by 5 or more BAB wasn't that big a deal.
There are still good wizard spells for a wizard that holds a powerful weapon. I do recommend spending some time with the spell list because the spells and tactics of PF2 are a lot different than they were in PF 1. In the end, the exact Eldritch knight you enjoyed from PF1 might not be possible yet, but I would be interested to hear what specifically you are hoping your eldritch knight is capable of achieving?
For example, if it is hitting hard with a weapon, (which seems what you are suggesting with looking for all the stacking buff spells from PF1) the build probably is fighter/MC wizard, and you just get the buff spells built into your character without having to plan them out and cast them. You are well within your rights to flavor your martial prowess as magical power, I don't think that would really hurt or change anything.
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Liegence has clearly missed all the threads from the last two weeks that had people insisting that -2 behind did indeed equal unviable . It was a little more complicated but all the complaints about proficiency levels (and there were a lot) basically boiled down to that
As to Edge’s point about the PF1 Eldritch Knight struggling at many points - it would appear the OP has done a theorycraft at level 15 which I assume it a point where the PF1 EK was really balancing out and catching up in spells and BAB and not factoring in the journey to get up to those levels
(It would be like comparing a level 16 mystic theurge who would have have access to level 7 spells in both classes in PF1 to what you can do in PF2. It would ignore that assuming you take 3 levels of cleric or wizard first (not guaranteed) that levels 4 to probably at least 10 you would be miles behind.)
Well, I was here and I’m still baffled.
You and me both.
But It is the problem with theorycraft vs playing the game
And probably why loads of the inevitable DPS discussions are going to be much less valuable than before as there are more options with actions
Or why wizard abilities to reduce enemy actions with certain spells even on a successful save have been undervalued because not enough people have had exposure to some of the nasty multi action effects that are new in this edition
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Well, I was here and I’m still baffled.You and me both.
But It is the problem with theorycraft vs playing the game
And probably why loads of the inevitable DPS discussions are going to be much less valuable than before as there are more options with actionsOr why wizard abilities to reduce enemy actions with certain spells even on a successful save have been undervalued because not enough people have had exposure to some of the nasty multi action effects that are new in this edition
I wish there was less focus on what numbers you have if you play min-maxing and more what combos we could get between different classes and all these new actions now that we got options between "I attack. I charge. I fullround attack."
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My post just got eaten so here is the abbreviated version.
Wait - how does this not work? Are you saying it isn’t workable because you’re -2 compared to other non-fighter martials?
Even though you can fly, attack with true strike, stone skin and elemental resist yourself, fire off multiple chain lightnings, haste yourself, locate invisible creatures, boost damage through size increases, save yourself from the consequences of fall damage, and mass debuff enemies ...
Honestly, I’m having a real hard time trying to understand where the perceived balance gap is here. Seems workable to me.
I’m saying a base accuracy of 35% in boss fights is not meaningfully contributing in those fights. True strike helps (for 3 strikes per day), but it doesn’t change the fact you need a 14 on the dice (12 with a flank).
If anyone feels I’ve missed any good spells that either buff the wizards accuracy or debuffs the enemy please point them out to me. I only read the spells chapter twice so it’s quite possible I missed them :)
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Well, I was here and I’m still baffled.You and me both.
But It is the problem with theorycraft vs playing the game
And probably why loads of the inevitable DPS discussions are going to be much less valuable than before as there are more options with actionsOr why wizard abilities to reduce enemy actions with certain spells even on a successful save have been undervalued because not enough people have had exposure to some of the nasty multi action effects that are new in this edition
I wish there was less focus on what numbers you have if you play min-maxing and more what combos we could get between different classes and all these new actions now that we got options between "I attack. I charge. I fullround attack."
I was hoping to use this character to demonstrate how it is possible to step out of your class’s box and still be viable. IMO it has failed to demonstrate that. So if someone wants to build a wizard eldritch knight to show how it can be done I would love to see it :)
Also wanting to have an accuracy greater than 35% on your BEST attack is hardly min maxing.
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Sure. But you didn’t really need that many levels in fighter in PF1e to be an eldritch knight and I thought it would be cool if in the new edition you could achieve the same effect via either class (given how flexible the new edition is described as being) by relying on spells to temporarily boost your effectiveness. Clearly that isn’t the case.Um, PF1 Eldritch Fighter had a lot of problems. Namely that Magus was a better version of it in almost every way, but also the inability to cast safely in armor and the fact that you're at 1/2 BAB for like 5 or 6 levels before you actually get into EK which means you have a horrendous start to your accuracy that won't average out to even 3/4 BAB until what, 10th-12th level? And you get no class features to speak of to help with accuracy, which means even with that 3/4 (eventually 7/8 or so) BAB you're not looking at good accuracy. And also no armor if you want to cast or not burn your Swift action every round on Arcane Armor Training.
What I'm saying is, I find the notion that a PF1 Eldritch Knight is ANY better an Eldritch Knight than a PF2 Wizard MC Fighter a very large stretch.
Your welcome to call me a liar if you so wish. But having played Iron Gods with an Eldritch Knight I have to disagree with your assertion.
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Well, I was here and I’m still baffled.You and me both.
But It is the problem with theorycraft vs playing the game
And probably why loads of the inevitable DPS discussions are going to be much less valuable than before as there are more options with actionsOr why wizard abilities to reduce enemy actions with certain spells even on a successful save have been undervalued because not enough people have had exposure to some of the nasty multi action effects that are new in this edition
I wish there was less focus on what numbers you have if you play min-maxing and more what combos we could get between different classes and all these new actions now that we got options between "I attack. I charge. I fullround attack."
I was hoping to use this character to demonstrate how it is possible to step out of your class’s box and still be viable. IMO it has failed to demonstrate that. So if someone wants to build a wizard eldritch knight to show how it can be done I would love to see it :)
Also wanting to have an accuracy greater than 35% on your BEST attack is hardly min maxing.
Indeed that knight might fail based on purely numbers without taking into account anything besides the AC and his to Hit. It doesn't take into account the actual roleplay. Does he have to melee 100%? Would an Enlarged, Mirror Image perform better than a Hasted, Blurred combo? What can he do if your archer crits with his bow and pins an enemy solid? Would he be useful Dimension Dooring next to a caster and grappling with his higher athletics check?
How much of a menace could a fullplated wizard be if he casts Fiery Body and sticks to an enemy?
I agree that the numbers aren't on par with a purely martial character, which they shouldn't. But it seems like the scenarios you base the effectivness on is narrow and limited and not very creative. You're only focusing on stat buff spells and not on combos that can work with spells now that you have more action variety than before.
Edit: Also curious, why the 12dex on an armor that doesn't apply dex to AC or Reflex? Skills? 12 cha or 19con seems a better choice?
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That is effectively saying “Alright Mr Knight. You’ve arsed about the last 3 fights, now we need you to actually contribute meaningfully.” If you want to play that sort of eldritch knight, go for it. But it wasn’t what I was looking for.
As for the repeated query on martials: martials can go all day. It would have been good for Eldritch knights to be able to temporarily equal a martial through expending numerous daily resources.
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Well, I was here and I’m still baffled.You and me both.
But It is the problem with theorycraft vs playing the game
And probably why loads of the inevitable DPS discussions are going to be much less valuable than before as there are more options with actionsOr why wizard abilities to reduce enemy actions with certain spells even on a successful save have been undervalued because not enough people have had exposure to some of the nasty multi action effects that are new in this edition
I wish there was less focus on what numbers you have if you play min-maxing and more what combos we could get between different classes and all these new actions now that we got options between "I attack. I charge. I fullround attack."
I was hoping to use this character to demonstrate how it is possible to step out of your class’s box and still be viable. IMO it has failed to demonstrate that. So if someone wants to build a wizard eldritch knight to show how it can be done I would love to see it :)
Also wanting to have an accuracy greater than 35% on your BEST attack is hardly min maxing.
Indeed that knight might fail based on purely numbers without taking into account anything besides the AC and his to Hit. It doesn't take into account the actual roleplay. Does he have to melee 100%? Would an Enlarged, Mirror Image perform better than a Hasted, Blurred combo? What can he do if your archer crits with his bow and pins an enemy solid? Would he be useful Dimension Dooring next to a caster and grappling with his higher athletics check?
How much of a menace could a fullplated wizard be if he casts Fiery Body and sticks to an enemy?
I agree that the numbers aren't on par with a purely martial character, which they shouldn't. But it seems like the scenarios you base the effectivness on is narrow and limited and not very creative. You're only focusing on stat buff spells and not on combos that...
1. Would you mi d explaining what role playing has to do with accuracy? I’m genuinely confused on that point.
2. Dimension door and grapple works on humanoids only. That might be viable in some games, but that would be highly campaign specific.
3. Please explain what combos increase the accuracy from 35% to something that actually contributes. Enlarge and haste or blur and mirror image all day long. Your simply taking up table time without meaningfully helping.
4. Would you mind explaining how the amazing combos I keep missing work? I’d be very grateful.
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It would have been good for Eldritch knights to be able to temporarily equal a martial through expending numerous daily resources.They can contribute just as much. They have, you know, spells and stuff.
So play a silly eldritch knight until it matters and then play a proper wizard? Doesn’t sound very fun to me. If I wanted that I wouldn’t bother investing in a weapon at all and just play a wizard.
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That is effectively saying “Alright Mr Knight. You’ve arsed about the last 3 fights, now we need you to actually contribute meaningfully.” If you want to play that sort of eldritch knight, go for it. But it wasn’t what I was looking for.
As for the repeated query on martials: martials can go all day. It would have been good for Eldritch knights to be able to temporarily equal a martial through expending numerous daily resources.
Martial can go all day, but they got vastly less utility compared to a full caster. Which is why people would likely go fighter/wizard for the more weapon focused elritch, and wizard/fighter for the more spell focused eldritch. Gotta pick a branch and go with that path.
Not sure this is an eldritch knight issue. At this point, you got expert in martial. Since you don't like the numbers, and you got expert martial, and min-maxed the str, wouldn't the issue then be that the AC is too high? Many classes only have expert at level 15, so it's an universal issue.
It seems that only Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Ranger and Champion have a Master proficiency at level 15th. So if the issue is to hit, with highest proficiency available, and the best weapon rune, and the highest str possible. That's an universal issue for anyone with 20 in a stat, +2 in a weapon and expert proficiency at 15th.
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Many classes only have expert at level 15, so it's an universal issue.
No, they don’t. All non-spellcasters (except alchemist) have master by 15th level which boosts their base accuracy to 45%. A flank boosts it further to 55% which is about where you need to get it to in order to be viable.
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It sounds to me like you want to be able to solo adventures. That doesn't sound very fun to me - at least, not for the rest of the table.
Let me say unequivocally this is not the case. What I don’t want is reliance on a bard to get heroism. Another character giving up their resources should be to make you better, not to make you viable.
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1. Would you mi d explaining what role playing has to do with accuracy? I’m genuinely confused on that point.
2. Dimension door and grapple works on humanoids only. That might be viable in some games, but that would be highly campaign specific.
3. Please explain what combos increase the accuracy from 35% to something that actually contributes. Enlarge and haste or blur and mirror image all day long. Your simply taking up table time without meaningfully helping.
4. Would you mind explaining how the amazing combos I keep missing work? I’d be very grateful.
1. Roleplay tends to include a party. You're comparing a basic Strike vs basic AC in a vacuum. In a place where the rogue doesn't use debilitating strike or poisons, and the casters don't buff you and debuff the enemy.
2. Care to point out the humanoid part? "Requirements You have at least one free hand. Your target cannot be more than one size larger than you."
You got Enlarge vs Large enemies. Also Titan wrestler lets you Disarm, Grapple, Shove or Trip enemies two sizes larger. If you go that route, Fighter has a neat level 2 feat that uses one action on a Strike then a Grab.
3. I thought it was clear that the game doesn't support handing out bonuses like candy with what Magic Weapon not scaling, and all stat buffs such as Bull's Strength being gone. I never claimed these comboes raise +to hit because going into a caster and thinking you can match martials is just silly in that regard. If any caster class can match a martial in base To Hit, why even go martials? What the martials can't do is for example stonewall one enemy in and punch another at the same time as often, and it'll cost them many more feats to catch up.
4. There's plenty, especially at 15th. Dimension Door+Grab on a caster is pretty snazzy, especially if you also pick up AoO with a feat.
Enlarge and Flame Body, anyone near you or who attacks you suffers damage, useful in small rooms. Transformation spells such as Monstrous Form combined with fighter feats such as Power Attack. A purple worm form would hit for 4d12+20 with it's jaws, or you could stinger for 4d8+15 and 2d6 persistent poison. My personal favorite is the Dimension Door+Grab, and next round you drop Antimagic zone on yourself. Now that pure dex caster has to compete against your athletics and even if he succeeds Escaping, he spent a round, meaning he can't run and cast in the round after. With Combat Grab, you can actually Dimension door in, Strike the enemy and if you hit, you grab the enemy.
I'm sure someone can make a better combo with trip and reactions or something, many players that are more clever than me out there.
But if you gonna go out there with a pure caster thinking your numbers will be on par with a pure martial?
Nah.
Just the same way you could get higher numbers but less spells with fighter/wizard. You gotta make a choice.
Many classes only have expert at level 15, so it's an universal issue.No, they don’t. All non-spellcasters (except alchemist) have master by 15th level which boosts their base accuracy to 45%. A flank boosts it further to 55% which is about where you need to get it to in order to be viable.
Where does any caster get Master in any weapon at 15th?
Alchemist/bard/druid/wizard/non-warpriest cleric/sorcerer
11th is weapon expert. 13th is defense expert and weapons specialization(+damage). 15th is spellcasting mastery.
None of these classes get master in weapon proficiencies, even with fighter dedication
If the numbers are as bad as you say, with max STR and Expert proficiency. Then it's an universal issue to these classes and not an eldritch knight issue. If any of these classes get 20str and pick up a weapon they're expert in, they'll have the same to hit. If they maxed dex to 20 and picked up any ranged weapon, they'd have the same issue.
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I’ve specifically not based this on DPR, so I’m confused with references about “competing” or “outperforming” martials. 35% accuracy means you miss with your first strike 2 out of 3 rounds. That isn’t fun. If you can reliably flank your still missing with half your first strike (let alone your second attack which is just completely useless). Having played D&D 4th ed where accuracy was a huge issue, I can say that missing with most of your attacks simply isn’t fun. No amount of role playing changes that.
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There are a lot of debuff spells of various sorts (look particularly for those that inflict Frightened, Sickened, or Clumsy, though the last is rare, all are direct AC penalties), so those can really aid your DPR numbers if used properly, and many inflict some effect and achieve this even on a successful save (though they usually wear off quick in that case).
You're also kind of the king of minion sweeping with area effect spells, which is nothing to sneeze at.
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1. Would you mi d explaining what role playing has to do with accuracy? I’m genuinely confused on that point.
2. Dimension door and grapple works on humanoids only. That might be viable in some games, but that would be highly campaign specific.
3. Please explain what combos increase the accuracy from 35% to something that actually contributes. Enlarge and haste or blur and mirror image all day long. Your simply taking up table time without meaningfully helping.
4. Would you mind explaining how the amazing combos I keep missing work? I’d be very grateful.
1. Roleplay tends to include a party. You're comparing a basic Strike vs basic AC in a vacuum. In a place where the rogue doesn't use debilitating strike or poisons, and the casters don't buff you and debuff the enemy.
2. Care to point out the humanoid part? "Requirements You have at least one free hand. Your target cannot be more than one size larger than you."
You got Enlarge vs Large enemies. Also Titan wrestler lets you Disarm, Grapple, Shove or Trip enemies two sizes larger. If you go that route, Fighter has a neat level 2 feat that uses one action on a Strike then a Grab.3. I thought it was clear that the game doesn't support handing out bonuses like candy with what Magic Weapon not scaling, and all stat buffs such as Bull's Strength being gone. I never claimed these comboes raise +to hit because going into a caster and thinking you can match martials is just silly in that regard. If any caster class can match a martial in base To Hit, why even go martials? What the martials can't do is for example stonewall one enemy in and punch another at the same time.
4. There's plenty, especially at 15th. Dimension Door+Grab on a caster is pretty snazzy, especially if you also pick up AoO with a feat.
Enlarge and Flame Body, anyone near you or who attacks you suffers damage, useful in small rooms. Transformation spells such as Monstrous Form combined with fighter feats such as Power Attack. A purple worm form...
1. Needing to rely on other people to get to viable isn’t really that good.
2. Good point on enlarging being a good buff to grab. I had overlooked that.
3. I’ve covered this point a few times now. Let me know if my position still isn’t clear :)
4a. Fiery Body: Bring adjacent is irrelevant and if you aren’t a threat enemies will simply ignore you.
4b. Sure, ceasing to use your attacks and transforming into a monster can help. But that is more a wizard move then an eldritch knight.
4c. Martials are more than their to hit bonus. So I’m unsure why you think having a greater accuracy would make you equal a martial.
Thanks anyway. Looks like for these sorts of characters I’m stuck going Fighter MC wizard.
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There are a lot of debuff spells of various sorts (look particularly for those that inflict Frightened, Sickened, or Clumsy, theough the least is rare, all are direct AC penalties), so those can really aid your DPR numbers if used properly, and many inflict some effect and achieve this even on a successful save (though they usually wear off quick in that case).
You're also kind of the king of minion sweeping with area effect spells, which is nothing to sneeze at.
On minion sweeping: sure. But any old wizard can do that.
Debuffs: From what I’ve seen it’s hard to get any effect for longer than 1 round on a successful save. Which is fine for a caster concentrating on casting because they can just keep it up the whole fight. Not so good for an eldritch knight looking to get up in an enemies face with their sword. With saves so high they can succeed on a 4 (and at worst succeed on a 9) you can’t open with it and then rely on it for the rest of the fight.
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I’ve specifically not based this on DPR, so I’m confused with references about “competing” or “outperforming” martials. 35% accuracy means you miss with your first strike 2 out of 3 rounds. That isn’t fun. If you can reliably flank your still missing with half your first strike (let alone your second attack which is just completely useless). Having played D&D 4th ed where accuracy was a huge issue, I can say that missing with most of your attacks simply isn’t fun. No amount of role playing changes that.
@John Lynch, what specifically felt missing lacking about this character?
Is it martial accuracy?
How many spells were you willing to give up to pick up that +2 to +4 accuracy a day?
have you try building the fighter first eldritch knight? Does it still have enough spells for you to feel competent.
Thinking Melee first against a boss fight really feels like a martial base class over a caster base class.
1. Needing to rely on other people to get to viable isn’t really that good.
2. Good point on enlarging being a good buff to grab. I had overlooked that.
3. I’ve covered this point a few times now. Let me know if my position still isn’t clear :)
4a. Fiery Body: Bring adjacent is irrelevant and if you aren’t a threat enemies will simply ignore you.
4b. Sure, ceasing to use your attacks and transforming into a monster can help. But that is more a wizard move then an eldritch knight.
4c. Martials are more than their to hit bonus. So I’m unsure why you think having a greater accuracy would make you equal a martial.
Thanks anyway. Looks like for these sorts of characters I’m stuck going Fighter MC wizard.
1. I'm simply saying that the numbers you base on are in a vacuum and hardly realistic, taking none of the variables that come up in roleplay. Those numbers get skewed up and down each time someone takes an action. That number might be accurate on first round, but then one tanglefoot bag or a fear spell and it's not accurate anymore. Except these can pile up after each turn.
-3. I've covered it too. You got the most +to hit a caster can have at that level even with power-gaming builds. The issue isn't the knight, it's that all casters are capped at that number and no class will change it with exception of getting Master in a weapon by 15th somehow.
4. The pure wizard won't have power attack and double his dice, it was based on your build, which had power attack. Your dragon and monstrous forms can dish out more damage on that account. You could even go the Maneuvers route since you got the athletics for it. Dragon form and shove or grab works out better for you than a pure wizard.
4c. That's their niche. The fact that a fighter/wizard has more accuracy than a wizard/fighter can't be dismissed on a whim. You might not feel it's their forte and making them equal isn't that big of a deal, but the system seems to think so since every caster lags behind every martial in accuracy.
Again, your accuracy issue isn't based on wizard, but that all casters are capped lower than a martial at 15th and ACs might be too high at that level.
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If you’re not so wedded to wizard you can go sorcerer and with crossblooded evolution you can take heroism as an off tradition spell.
Edit: also like some have said you can do other stuff. That master level martial is not able to help out with something else and is only 45%. So to me it seems your concern is that the to hit against bosses is too low. (I think you made a similar Reddit post) That to me is a feature. Higher level monsters should be tough to hit. PF1 often has the issue that even higher level monsters were easy because of the action economy. Sure they could do nasty stuff, but they were so outnumbered they just die. That low to hit chance will give bosses a chance to live last turn 2.
Sorcerer could definitely be a good way to go. I had a soft spot for Wizards, but on the upside it is an arcane caster using a weapon.
Re: Flurry of misses being fun: That isn’t my experience and fights can drag on with that sort of setup. Just my own experience though. Maybe some people really love missing for entire combats :)
why are your first thoughts to stab the high CR enemies and not shocking grasp them? or say polar ray? to do 10d8+their level*2 damage?
or say cast earthquake while you cast a heightened fly on the party?
you should probably start with spells and use melee/bow to clean up the smaller guys.
So I was building up an eldritch knight with wizard as the main class, all excited about it. However with the removal of heroism from the arcane spell list and the fact enlarge person doesn’t include an accuracy boost, there is no way for a wizard to be workable as an eldritch knight.
** spoiler omitted **...
Is mask of terror factored into your accuracy in boss fights? Every failed save includes another +2 attack, stacks with flat-footed. And as your highest level spell I would imagine it is the asset you spend on a boss fight.
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1. I'm simply saying that the numbers you base on are in a vacuum and hardly realistic, taking none of the variables that come up in roleplay. Those numbers get skewed up and down each time someone takes an action. That number might be accurate on first round, but then one tanglefoot bag or a fear spell and it's not accurate anymore. Except these can pile up after each turn.
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3. I've covered it too. You got the most +to hit a caster can have at that level even with power-gaming builds. The issue isn't the knight, it's that all casters are capped at that number and no class will change it with exception of getting Master in a weapon by 15th somehow.
4. The pure wizard won't have power attack and double his dice, it was based on your build, which had power attack. Your dragon and monstrous forms can dish out more damage on that account. You could even go the Maneuvers route since you got the athletics for it. Dragon form and shove or grab works out better for you than a pure wizard.4c. That's their niche. The fact that a fighter/wizard has more accuracy than a wizard/fighter can't be dismissed on a whim. You might not feel it's their forte and making them equal isn't that big of a deal, but the system seems to think so since every caster lags behind every martial in accuracy.
Again, your accuracy issue isn't based on wizard, but that all casters are capped lower than a martial at 15th and ACs might be too high at that level.
Okay? No other warrior needs other classes to be present to become viable in a fight.. But if having that requirement = roleplaying for you then you go for it.
3a. You keep mentioning min maxing. Do you actually think this build is min maxing? If so that’s a bit of a strange definition.
3b. Bards get a higher to hit. So do clerics. Druids would make sense to transform into beasts so even their to hit is better.
4. If you consider a wizard transforming into beasts as being eldritch knights, you go for it. Not really what I consider it to be though.
4c. this wasn’t to say eldritch knights are t viable. It was to explore wizard ek and how viable they are.
Is mask of terror factored into your accuracy in boss fights? Every failed save includes another +2 attack, stacks with flat-footed. And as your highest level spell I would imagine it is the asset you spend on a boss fight.So I was building up an eldritch knight with wizard as the main class, all excited about it. However with the removal of heroism from the arcane spell list and the fact enlarge person doesn’t include an accuracy boost, there is no way for a wizard to be workable as an eldritch knight.
** spoiler omitted **...
That's a nice spell, I thought it was an instantenous spell, but it's almost like sanctuary with a debuff.
Do the numbered conditions stack with each other, such as feared?