Who here misses the edginess of 3.5 Edition Golarion?

[Rysky]

The mundane exists, does not make the setting mundane.

[YawarFiesta]

Is my English that bad? I am not saying that the setting is mundane. I am saying that mundane stuff is to be expected and the fantastic is something, relatively, uncommon.

[Rysky]

And that simply isn’t true though.

[CorvusMask]

They are right in one thing though, in society where both sexes are capable of giving birth would have vastly different idea of what sex and such is from our worldview. Like there wouldn't even be need to have male or female sex existing in first place.

As far as I know, with magic yeah its definitely possible, but its probably not common place in Golarion as far as we know. But yeah I want to avoid getting into philosophical effect of it on diversity and world building since pretty sure this thread isn't good place for that.

[thejeff]

Rysky wrote:

And that simply isn’t true though.

How is it not true? Am I misreading Golarion lore so badly that it's really off in Tippyverse territory? That daily life for most of the world isn't pretty mundane. People farm or trade or travel in ways we would recognize from history? Even if the high level characters can teleport across the ocean in a blink, that's the exception not the rule.

Is it possible for someone to pray for a miracle and become pregnant (or to use other magic to do so)? Sure, but it should be the story, not the routine way people have children. That fits myth and folklore better.

[Rysky]

thejeff wrote:

Rysky wrote:

And that simply isn’t true though.

How is it not true? Am I misreading Golarion lore so badly that it's really off in Tippyverse territory? That daily life for most of the world isn't pretty mundane. People farm or trade or travel in ways we would recognize from history? Even if the high level characters can teleport across the ocean in a blink, that's the exception not the rule.

Is it possible for someone to pray for a miracle and become pregnant (or to use other magic to do so)? Sure, but it should be the story, not the routine way people have children. That fits myth and folklore better.

I was responding to the statement that “fantastic is something, relatively, uncommon”, which is not true.

There’s fantastical elements everywhere in the setting, including in the mundane. That’s not the same as saying everyone is supercharged with magic, which no one has.

[TriOmegaZero]

I mean, common people run into fey and fantastic beasts all over the place, while living in the shadow of mythical monuments and magical effects. The fact that they are mundane themselves does not make the world mundane.

[Unicore]

Yeah, are halflings fantastical? what about elves and dwarves? What is living a mundane life in Golarion? Why would a good deity of family not be actively promoting and making it as easy as possible for people to just have chosen families when they want one and are ready for one, and instead going to latch on to evil ideas, as established in world (oppressing others and denying them equal rights) just to reinforce problems that really shouldn't exist in a world of high magic with gods that have domains over very basic and essential areas of existence like nature and the cycle of birth and rebirth?

It is a sad form of irony to want some kind of "edginess" that just mean making the setting reflect the injustices of our own real world, and not challenging what kinds of worlds could be possible if we are willing to imagine them.

[thejeff]

Rysky wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Rysky wrote:

And that simply isn’t true though.

How is it not true? Am I misreading Golarion lore so badly that it's really off in Tippyverse territory? That daily life for most of the world isn't pretty mundane. People farm or trade or travel in ways we would recognize from history? Even if the high level characters can teleport across the ocean in a blink, that's the exception not the rule.

Is it possible for someone to pray for a miracle and become pregnant (or to use other magic to do so)? Sure, but it should be the story, not the routine way people have children. That fits myth and folklore better.

I was responding to the statement that “fantastic is something, relatively, uncommon”, which is not true.

There’s fantastical elements everywhere in the setting, including in the mundane. That’s not the same as saying everyone is supercharged with magic, which no one has.

Out of context, sure, there's plenty of magic around.

In the context of "If you want a kid, you just pray to the fertility goddess and get pregnant, male or female, partner or not", the world is mundane. That could happen, but it would be the fantastic exception (or Lamashtu). The overwhelming majority of kids are conceived and born the old fashioned way.

[Phillip Gastone]

thejeff wrote:

Rysky wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Rysky wrote:

And that simply isn’t true though.

How is it not true? Am I misreading Golarion lore so badly that it's really off in Tippyverse territory? That daily life for most of the world isn't pretty mundane. People farm or trade or travel in ways we would recognize from history? Even if the high level characters can teleport across the ocean in a blink, that's the exception not the rule.

Is it possible for someone to pray for a miracle and become pregnant (or to use other magic to do so)? Sure, but it should be the story, not the routine way people have children. That fits myth and folklore better.

I was responding to the statement that “fantastic is something, relatively, uncommon”, which is not true.

There’s fantastical elements everywhere in the setting, including in the mundane. That’s not the same as saying everyone is supercharged with magic, which no one has.

Out of context, sure, there's plenty of magic around.

In the context of "If you want a kid, you just pray to the fertility goddess and get pregnant, male or female, partner or not", the world is mundane. That could happen, but it would be the fantastic exception (or Lamashtu). The overwhelming majority of kids are conceived and born the old fashioned way.

Could always try EXALTED. the demigod characters could get busy with a calculator and produce kids. ;)

Might get painful if one doesn't have a way to get the baby out that is large enough.

[Artofregicide]

411 posts later...

I do miss the darkness of the early days of Paizo, which were kind of a lawless time. I personally just really like dark content. That isn't some criticism of people who don't - to each their own.

But I'm also glad that Paizo has moved on. They're including more folks at the table, and that's a fantastic thing. I wouldn't say that there's nothing "dark" or "edgy" being published by Paizo these days - far from it - but it's being done with more consideration of a broader audience.

Running RotRL for kids would require heavy editing, whereas Age of Ashes would require less (but still some depending on the age).

Do I think that the quality of Paizo's writing is suffered? Not at all, just because something appeals less to me doesn't make it bad. Though the last couple of AP's haven't been particularly exciting to me personally, I am very excited about Strength of Thousands.

Even as an eternal pessimist, this really is the best of both worlds. Because smaller publishers can take up the mantle of "edgier" publications while Paizo reaches a broader audience. And if it's not your cup of tea, you're not saddled with trying to play around it.

[Steelbro300]

Artofregicide wrote:

411 posts later...

I do miss the darkness of the early days of Paizo, which were kind of a lawless time. I personally just really like dark content. That isn't some criticism of people who don't - to each their own.

But I'm also glad that Paizo has moved on. They're including more folks at the table, and that's a fantastic thing. I wouldn't say that there's nothing "dark" or "edgy" being published by Paizo these days - far from it - but it's being done with more consideration of a broader audience.

Running RotRL for kids would require heavy editing, whereas Age of Ashes would require less (but still some depending on the age).

Do I think that the quality of Paizo's writing is suffered? Not at all, just because something appeals less to me doesn't make it bad. Though the last couple of AP's haven't been particularly exciting to me personally, I am very excited about Strength of Thousands.

Even as an eternal pessimist, this really is the best of both worlds. Because smaller publishers can take up the mantle of "edgier" publications while Paizo reaches a broader audience. And if it's not your cup of tea, you're not saddled with trying to play around it.

I haven't read it fully, but from what I hear Agents of Edgewatch has plenty of dark/edgy parts. Like the titular Dreaming Palace in the first book.

[Artofregicide]

TOZ wrote:

*thinks for two seconds about the name* Oh yeah, I'm guessing that's where you chase the dragon.

Assuming that's just a reference to drug use, that's neither edgy or honestly all that controversial. They've been in the game for a long while.

But I have heard that there's some pretty dark stuff in Agents of Edgewatch, but the AP doesn't appeal to me as either a player or a GM.

[TOZ]

Given their other content, I'm sure there are worse things going on in a notorious drug den than just recreational use.

[CorvusMask]

Artofregicide wrote:

TOZ wrote:

*thinks for two seconds about the name* Oh yeah, I'm guessing that's where you chase the dragon.

Assuming that's just a reference to drug use, that's neither edgy or honestly all that controversial. They've been in the game for a long while.

But I have heard that there's some pretty dark stuff in Agents of Edgewatch, but the AP doesn't appeal to me as either a player or a GM.

From what I know (haven't ever read thing or heard direct spoilers), apparently agent of edgewatch has lot of content comparable to Saw movies :p

[Rysky]

CorvusMask wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

TOZ wrote:

*thinks for two seconds about the name* Oh yeah, I'm guessing that's where you chase the dragon.

Assuming that's just a reference to drug use, that's neither edgy or honestly all that controversial. They've been in the game for a long while.

But I have heard that there's some pretty dark stuff in Agents of Edgewatch, but the AP doesn't appeal to me as either a player or a GM.

From what I know (haven't ever read thing or heard direct spoilers), apparently agent of edgewatch has lot of content comparable to Saw movies :p

You're not wrong.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

The thing about Good and Evil existing as polarities of the multiverse is that it puts them in the domain of physical forces, with strong physical effects. And if one is going to have a game universe with that sort of forces deeply embedded in the physical manifestation of reality, it seems a little bit unfortunate to me to have them labelled as Good and Evil. Some of my more successful campaigns in Pathfinder and in D&D before it have come with the expressed caveat at a session 0 or equivalent that "Good" and "Evil" are game terms representing "here is a particular set of philosophies which a particular set of powerful entities endorse, and which have effects on you based on the nature of the universe, but there is not expectation that you as players or as characters end necessarily regard that as morally definitive", which can go a goodly way to avoid issues when players' personal beliefs in re good and evil do not exactly match the game's Good and Evil; otherwise the terminology is very prone to that sort of ambiguity. If I were doing that in a game now, I'd be quite tempted to call them Green and Purple instead. (On the grounds that a) I'd rather avoid talking in terms of light/dark as metaphors for replacing good and evil, b) most of my plausible players these days will be familiar with the expression "blue and orange morality" and would find Green and Purple a reasonable analog, and c) you can never have too many Babylon 5 references.)

One of the things I appreciate about Golarion's core set of deities on a world-building level is how well their focal interests cover the range of activities one would expect of humans (and human-like sentiences), even including ones that do not have particularly strong or obvious connections to adventuring as a way of life. I have tended to play followers of Erastil as leaning in the direction of valorising hunting, farming, and parenting as virtuous activities for everyone, regardless of gender, sexuality or biological sex. Also, one of the things I am turning over in my head as an element for a potential future campaign is a central conflict between followers of Abadar and Erastil, as Abadar's focus does feel to me to lean more towards activities associated with larger human captivities and Erastil's with smaller ones; one of my major objectives here is not to have one side of that disagreement be notably more sympathetic than the other (though both sides will have unpleasant extremists), and having errata for lore characterising Erastil as misogynistic makes that practically easier as well as being more morally appealing to me.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

Unicore wrote:

Yeah, are halflings fantastical? what about elves and dwarves? What is living a mundane life in Golarion?

Being under 5th level, like the vast majority of people in the setting. Living in environs where nothing more spectacular than the first volume of an AP ever happens; being raided by goblins or orcs is certainly unpleasant, but I do not get the impression it is rare enough in Golarion to feel fantastical to the average commoner, unlike being faced with a ten-thousand-year-old wizard.

Quote:

just to reinforce problems that really shouldn't exist in a world of high magic with gods that have domains over very basic and essential areas of existence like nature and the cycle of birth and rebirth?

One of the things that makes Golarion's range of variety work for me is it not being high magic, not just compared to settings like Tippyverse/Uberstadt/Walter Jon Williams' Metropolitan where there is so much magic around that the basic axioms of transport and providing food and so forth are utterly unlike the genres Golarion supports, but even by comparison with previous D&D settings that from this distance feel significantly more thronged with high-level characters and threats, and to need somewhat awkward world-building hacks to explain staying any degree of stable in a world with the desired genre feel.

Quote:

It is a sad form of irony to want some kind of "edginess" that just mean making the setting reflect the injustices of our own real world, and not challenging what kinds of worlds could be possible if we are willing to imagine them.

I am all in favour of imagining better worlds, but as positive exercises of the imaginative faculty go, I am also very much in favour of modes of imagining different and possibly better ways of dealing with injustices that involve imagining those injustices; both seem important in reality, and I am glad of a game that supports both.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:

Abadar's focus does feel to me to lean more towards activities associated with larger human captivities and Erastil's with smaller ones

Larger human communities, drat it. In my defence I am quite short on sleep right now.

[Steve Geddes]

the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:

The thing about Good and Evil existing as polarities of the multiverse is that it puts them in the domain of physical forces, with strong physical effects. And if one is going to have a game universe with that sort of forces deeply embedded in the physical manifestation of reality, it seems a little bit unfortunate to me to have them labelled as Good and Evil. Some of my more successful campaigns in Pathfinder and in D&D before it have come with the expressed caveat at a session 0 or equivalent that "Good" and "Evil" are game terms representing "here is a particular set of philosophies which a particular set of powerful entities endorse, and which have effects on you based on the nature of the universe, but there is not expectation that you as players or as characters end necessarily regard that as morally definitive", which can go a goodly way to avoid issues when players' personal beliefs in re good and evil do not exactly match the game's Good and Evil; otherwise the terminology is very prone to that sort of ambiguity. If I were doing that in a game now, I'd be quite tempted to call them Green and Purple instead. (On the grounds that a) I'd rather avoid talking in terms of light/dark as metaphors for replacing good and evil, b) most of my plausible players these days will be familiar with the expression "blue and orange morality" and would find Green and Purple a reasonable analog, and c) you can never have too many Babylon 5 references.)

I definitely try to make this point clear to my players. I agree with you that the terminology is unfortunate - the light/dark side of the force or corruption/purity or "taint of evil" or some similar jargon would have been far more preferable, I think.

The world of the nine alignment, 2-axis moral code is far different from our current world and using words like good/evil (and to a lesser extent law/chaos) is unhelpful and leads to distractions. 9 times out of 10, alignment debates stem from assuming that "good" in an RPG is the same as "good" in our world - despite the fact that in game it is usually objectively demonstrable in a way we just can't do in real life.

(I find dragons more plausible than 9-flavor morality, to be frank).

[Zapp]

Artofregicide wrote:

411 posts later...

I do miss the darkness of the early days of Paizo, which were kind of a lawless time. I personally just really like dark content. That isn't some criticism of people who don't - to each their own.

Quote:

Running RotRL for kids would require heavy editing, whereas Age of Ashes would require less (but still some depending on the age).

What bugs me the most is the puritan outlook.

Killing monsters is perfectly alright but nudity and other mature situations is entirely off limits?

Sigh.

[The Raven Black]

Steve Geddes wrote:

The world of the nine alignment, 2-axis moral code is far different from our current world and using words like good/evil (and to a lesser extent law/chaos) is unhelpful and leads to distractions. 9 times out of 10, alignment debates stem from assuming that "good" in an RPG is the same as "good" in our world - despite the fact that in game it is usually objectively demonstrable in a way we just can't do in real life.

I believe the debates actually come from people not realizing that each individual (GM or player) have their own conception of what good and evil mean and that those are not shared even between good friends.

An important part of session zero for me is the GM explaining what their view of the alignments is so that arguments and agreements can happen before the dreaded alignment debates even start.

[thejeff]

The Raven Black wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

The world of the nine alignment, 2-axis moral code is far different from our current world and using words like good/evil (and to a lesser extent law/chaos) is unhelpful and leads to distractions. 9 times out of 10, alignment debates stem from assuming that "good" in an RPG is the same as "good" in our world - despite the fact that in game it is usually objectively demonstrable in a way we just can't do in real life.

I believe the debates actually come from people not realizing that each individual (GM or player) have their own conception of what good and evil mean and that those are not shared even between good friends.

An important part of session zero for me is the GM explaining what their view of the alignments is so that arguments and agreements can happen before the dreaded alignment debates even start.

I don't know. I've never really seen the dreaded alignment debates in real life, just on internet forums. Maybe I've just had good GMs and players - who were all willing to cut each other some slack and not abuse the intent.

A couple of times when a GM called us out on "You realize you're headed into evil territory here", but we agree when we stepped back and looked at it.

I'd much rather ditch alignments entirely than switch to "Team Green" and "Team Purple" - though I'd probably also just ditch PF/D&D and go to a system that didn't use alignment than rework all the game mechanics that rely on alignment.

[Perpdepog]

thejeff wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

The world of the nine alignment, 2-axis moral code is far different from our current world and using words like good/evil (and to a lesser extent law/chaos) is unhelpful and leads to distractions. 9 times out of 10, alignment debates stem from assuming that "good" in an RPG is the same as "good" in our world - despite the fact that in game it is usually objectively demonstrable in a way we just can't do in real life.

I believe the debates actually come from people not realizing that each individual (GM or player) have their own conception of what good and evil mean and that those are not shared even between good friends.

An important part of session zero for me is the GM explaining what their view of the alignments is so that arguments and agreements can happen before the dreaded alignment debates even start.

I don't know. I've never really seen the dreaded alignment debates in real life, just on internet forums. Maybe I've just had good GMs and players - who were all willing to cut each other some slack and not abuse the intent.

A couple of times when a GM called us out on "You realize you're headed into evil territory here", but we agree when we stepped back and looked at it.

I'd much rather ditch alignments entirely than switch to "Team Green" and "Team Purple" - though I'd probably also just ditch PF/D&D and go to a system that didn't use alignment than rework all the game mechanics that rely on alignment.

I'm in this same boat viz not seeing those kinds of debates in my groups personally, though I have argued a bit with other people over what may or may not constitute alignment-based behavior. I do think the real key is to remember that everyone is trying to have fun and not being afraid to have discussions about where morality might stand in a game; at least that's what we've done and it usually worked out well.

And if it doesn't, the GMG has you covered, hopefully.