I keep going back and forth on whether this is even worth asking. I think the paladin is okay right now.
In one of the games I am in we are in a tournament to discover if we get to one of the groups of heroes for our city before the near bi-century dragon attacks begin.
We are one of three teams attempting this. One is from the country, and we don't mind them much, the other is a group of nobles, who we hate with a passion. (We're a bunch of inner city orphans).
The first two rounds of the tourney we place strong second, not winning outright, but getting out with a lot of points and apparent the city thinks we're awesome.
In both rounds the nobles failed miserably (we wanted to replace their name on the scoreboard with 'Total Party Kill'). They apparently are so scared of us that they convinced the country team to join forces with them in the last round and just knock us out right from the start.
My question is, how far can the paladin go in attacking us before he is in danger of losing his paladin status? We are never in mortal danger, we all have weak rings of regeneration that prevent death from anything short of beheading, but there is an honorable thing going on right now, too. The other teams aren't actually completing the task, they're standing at the end of our lane shooting us full of arrows (and slings, and bolts) in front of a crowd of 50,000 people (who I might add, are booing).
Even though this is a tournament that we can't die in, doesn't this start to rub against the edges of not good? There is also a cleric on that team of presumably a good god. How far does the Code of Conduct go?
Adjudicating alignment-based actions, and what a character would and would not do, is an ancient can of worms. It's pretty clear that the paladin cannot commit a willingly evil act, nor break the code of honor (lying, cheating, stealing, etc.).
I think you had a typo, but it sounds like the three groups in question are competing to be the chosen group of heroes who will defend the city from the dragon attacks.
I would say that, per the Paladin write-up, in the CRB, if the paladin feels that beating the crap out of you guys is for the greater good (i.e. he genuinely believes he can save the city more than your group could), then he's not breaking his code of honor. But, if he's using traps, poisons, or any kind of cheap gimmick simply to win the contest, then yes, he is breaking his code of honor.
To clarify, if he knows you won't die, and he beats your sorry orphan butt in a duel, then he's legitimately winning a fight (even though I'd still call for him to do an atonement). But, if he hides in an alcove, while you're pelted with arrows, then he's breaking his code. This isn't to say that a paladin couldn't use a ranged attack. But, it makes more sense that the paladin would be standing out in the open, like Patton (whose troops kept pulling him to cover), engaging the enemy.
I would stay clear of attacking the cleric of the god deity if i were the paladin, other than that, as long as there isn't a good chance to kill someone i say go at them.
I think the cleric was on the same team as the pally - wasn't clear though.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But, if he hides in an alcove, while you're pelted with arrows, then he's breaking his code. This isn't to say that a paladin couldn't use a ranged attack. But, it makes more sense that the paladin would be standing out in the open, like Patton (whose troops kept pulling him to cover), engaging the enemy.
Nothing in the Paladin code says he can't use cover to avoid getting shot dead in return. I'm sorry, using tactics, terrain advantage, superior range etc. is not cowardly or dishonorable.
Is the Paladin part of the group of nobles or the country group? And how can the two groups even ally against you? Is it a Battle Royal, last man standing tournament, or are the actually interfering with your challenges?
The thing is, these guys probably can't fight back, so shooting them from the dark when they are defenseless made Ashen's point cowardly. But yeah, I dunno if I could call that Paladin out for breaking the Code of Conduct, since the situation seems unclear.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With that logic a level 3 paladin would fall when he kills a CR 1/3 goblin, because that goblin never had a snowballs chance in hell to win that fight.
Using ranged attacks from a secure location against an otherwise superior enemy is not cowardly. Walking up to them and getting killed would be Stupid however. Yes, capital S.
To clarify, there are three groups chosen to protect the city, we're tier three (1st level when we started, 2nd right now.)
The paladin, and the cleric, (who are on the same team) a barbarian, a fighter, and a monk are standing at the end of our field shooting at us and an ranger and druid are shooting us from crows nests on the walls. Our task at hand has nothing to do with fighting the other teams (unless they have the goal object which we would need from them). Our GM has even said that we're technically winning right now cause one of our team members got around back to the puzzle area and it looking for the goal object.
@Novennia, goblins are evil. Paladins can kill as many as they want.
Novennia, I may have been reading into it, but my impression was that the pally was essentially holding back, while his party attacked the orphan group, from protected range (meaning, that the orphans couldn't fight back). Again, the specifics of the scenario are unclear to me, and even if they were crystal clear, I'll go back to my first point in this thread:
Adjudicating alignment-based actions, and what a character would and would not do, is an ancient can of worms.
Also, to nitpick on the pally code, there's very little actually said about it. The writer is assuming that we all have the same concept of what is and isn't honorable. It doesn't specifically state that the pally can't interrogate a suspect using a hot poker, but I'd argue that we should all understand that a paladin would never do so. (not without needing to atone, at least)
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Note the "and so forth." To your point, I agree that ranged combat isn't a dishonorable act; simply that my (impression?) of the situation was that the pally was hiding and that the orphans couldn't respond.
And I second that goblins are vicious evil little buggers, and a 20th level paladin would rightly exterminate them with impunity.
The paladin is out in the open and is holding back in part because we had a 200-400ft path to run across and most of us have only gotten within 100ft of him and the team at the end of the bridge when we stopped last night. We're expecting him to start firing in the next round. They have a fighter/ranger (Favored enemy human) in a crow's nest that provides cover who has been raining death upon us. We can't respond because only half our team arrived at first and our ranged person was taken out before he could pull his bow. I'm the next best thing as the sorcerer, but magic missile requires me to be within 120ft, which on this battlefield is very far away.
The funny thing is that if they were actually trying to do the task, they might have succeeded already since they got out to the field so fast.
One Drop prone and crawl your now 4 AC higher.
Two no the paladin isn't breaking his code anymore than if he were standing down field from a group of N druids who were trying to interfere with a goal the paladin was also after and he simply shot at them.
Also note Cowardice is not against the Paladins code Nor is using the Stealth Skill heck we even have a Paladin archtype who focuses in not being where the enemy can hit him back.
As much as I hate Paladins, I must defend them here.
If the Paladin is aware that the outcome is to win the tournament, and knows fully that you are in no mortal danger, then he is free to act as he pleases, short of beheading you, to become the victor. As was declared above, smart combat tactics are not equivalent to evil actions unless the rules of engagement of the tournament specifically prohibited it. In which case, the Paladin would be cheating and violating his honor code.
Art, with that last post, the scene is a bit more clear, and I'd agree with Talon and Barry. It's a bit of a different picture from your first post, so I'm curious as to what actions on the paladin's part made you start to question him, in the first place.
Yeah, the more I think about it the paladin is probably in the clear as long as he doesn't continually hit us while we are down (not that it would stop our team from doing that... in fact, we did that in the first round). I also wanted to see what other people thought the limits of their code was.
We finish the tourney tomorrow. I've been emailing our GM and the other players over the week and discovered that there is nothing in the tourney rules that says that we have to have the regen rings on. If we take them off, Mr. Paladin can't fight us directly, and might even have to call the rest of his team off. Downside is that the half-orc barbarian on the other team might kill us anyway.
Wish us luck (we'll need it)
-X