Monk Question: Maneuver Feats

[華子: Hanako]

So, loving my monk character and staring into her crystal ball. At Lv.4 she can choose between Flurry of Maneuvers and Flying Kick. Both are cool, but doing two maneuvers in one action wins.

Then at Lv.8, there's Mixed Maneuvers which lets me do two maneuvers in one action. So... same as the Lv.4 thing, sort of.

So my question:

Is there any reason to have both? I mean, if they stack so you can have a flurry of mixed maneuvers, that's hard to pass up. But if they don't stack, they're similar enough that I'd just hold out until Lv.8 for the mixed.

[Blave]

Flurry of Maneuvers costs only one action. It also allows you to do only maneuver if the situation calls for it (like tripping a foe and then doing a Strike). You can also use Flurry of Maneuvers to do the same maneuver twice in case you need to maximize your chances to grapple/trip/shove someone

Mixed Maneuvers is two actions but the second maneuver doesn't suffer increased multiple attack penalty. You can't use a Strike instead of one of the maneuvers and can't use the same one twice.

I personally would greatly prefer the flexibility of Flurry. Especially since you could ignore the MAP on the second roll if you have Assurance for Athletics. This preference wouldn't change even if Mixed Maneuvers was only one action.

[masda_gib]

Blave explained the difference nicely.

So only to answer your question of why to take both:
You could first use Mixed Maneuvers to try 2 maneuvers without MAP for maximum success chance. And as your third action do a Flurry of Maneuvers with Assurance to ignore the hefty MAP.

Mixed Maneuvers is good for a Strength Monk that wants to roll for maneuvers to apply the big STR bonus.

[shroudb]

masda_gib wrote:

Blave explained the difference nicely.

So only to answer your question of why to take both:
You could first use Mixed Maneuvers to try 2 maneuvers without MAP for maximum success chance. And as your third action do a Flurry of Maneuvers with Assurance to ignore the hefty MAP.

Mixed Maneuvers is good for a Strength Monk that wants to roll for maneuvers to apply the big STR bonus.

I don't think Assurance on Athletics is a viable option for maneuvers.

Just gave a quick check on various levels and I found only one creature you would actually succeed with Assurance.

[masda_gib]

shroudb wrote:

masda_gib wrote:

Blave explained the difference nicely.

So only to answer your question of why to take both:
You could first use Mixed Maneuvers to try 2 maneuvers without MAP for maximum success chance. And as your third action do a Flurry of Maneuvers with Assurance to ignore the hefty MAP.

Mixed Maneuvers is good for a Strength Monk that wants to roll for maneuvers to apply the big STR bonus.

I don't think Assurance on Athletics is a viable option for maneuvers.

Just gave a quick check on various levels and I found only one creature you would actually succeed with Assurance.

Level 3

Expert Athletics Assurance: 17
Animated Statue Ref DC: 15

Level 4
Expert Athletics Assurance: 18
Pixie Fort DC: 18

Level 7
Master Athletics Assurance: 23
Stegosaurus Ref DC: 23

There are some creatures of same level on which that works. Any if the enemy is a level below you there are many more. Yes, it doesn't work against strong opponents... but that's also not for what Assurance is for.

[Blave]

Also, after using it once you know if it'll work for the rest of the fight. Seems decent to me.

[shroudb]

Blave wrote:

Also, after using it once you know if it'll work for the rest of the fight. Seems decent to me.

Yes, as I said I did find one enemy in the 6 or so I checked.

Those aren't good odds.

And even on a lot of lower levels it was iffy.

As an example vs a typical gnoll sergeant (not what I would call a "tough" opponent...) who is level 4, it still has 22 Fort DC and 20 ref DC.

Even at level 5 you'd still fail.

So yeah, Assurance MAY work some times, but that's the outlier. The expected outcome is to fail.

Against level -2 AND targeting their weak saves is where I expect Assurance to actually be worth it.

[華子: Hanako]

Oh...! I need to pay more attention to the >> notation. So having both allows 4 maneuvers in a single turn.

I'm confused as to why Assurance wouldn't succeed. I would think with 18 STR, plans to advance STR every and Athletics (and the Titan Wrestler feat), my odds of success should be better than 50%. I could see not allowing Assurance for combat, but...

shroudb wrote:

Just gave a quick check on various levels and I found only one creature you would actually succeed with Assurance.

...does this^ mean a nat.10 would usually fail vs. a creature meant for my level?

The folks at Paizo wrote:

You can forgo rolling a skill check for that skill to instead receive a result of 10 + your proficiency bonus (do not apply any other bonuses, penalties, or modifiers).

Or is it that you can't apply the STR mod? I'm confused by the parenthetical in the Assurance feat description. It sounds like "Take Ten" until that parenthetical...

So for me @ Lv.1:
Trip Badguy: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (5) + 7 = 12
But with Assurance, it's 13, not 17?

Better than my roll either way though!

[masda_gib]

Yeah, that Assurance thing works best against opponents that are on the cliché-side of FORT or REF saves. For monsters you might have more luck with targetting REF, since most monsters are tough.

For example the Animated Statues or Golems are prime targets for tripping - heavy, slow, lumbering things. The Alchemical Golem will resist but you can even trip an Adamantine Golem while being one level lower.

[masda_gib]

華子: Hanako wrote:

Or is it that you can't apply the STR mod? I'm confused by the parenthetical in the Assurance feat description. It sounds like "Take Ten" until that parenthetical...

Yes, this. Assurance is only 10 + level + proficiency (2/4/6/8). No ability modifier or anything. So at level 7 with Master it's 10 + 7 + 6 = 23.

It's not "take 10".

華子: Hanako wrote:

So for me @ Lv.1:

Trip Badguy: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (5) + 7 = 12
But with Assurance, it's 13, not 17?

Correct.

[shroudb]

華子: Hanako wrote:

Oh...! I need to pay more attention to the >> notation. So having both allows 4 maneuvers in a single turn.

I'm confused as to why Assurance wouldn't succeed. I would think with 18 STR, plans to advance STR every and Athletics (and the Titan Wrestler feat), my odds of success should be better than 50%. I could see not allowing Assurance for combat, but...

shroudb wrote:

Just gave a quick check on various levels and I found only one creature you would actually succeed with Assurance.

...does this^ mean a nat.10 would usually fail vs. a creature meant for my level?

The folks at Paizo wrote:

You can forgo rolling a skill check for that skill to instead receive a result of 10 + your proficiency bonus (do not apply any other bonuses, penalties, or modifiers).

Or is it that you can't apply the STR mod? I'm confused by the parenthetical in the Assurance feat description. It sounds like "Take Ten" until that parenthetical...

So for me @ Lv.1:
[dice=Trip Badguy]d20+7
But with Assurance, it's 13, not 17?

Better than my roll either way though!

In addition to what masda said, you don't add ANY bonuses (like stat, item, circumstance, status, etc)

BUT

you also don't add any penalties (like MAP, size modifiers, possible debuffs on you, etc)

So, you could try Swimming in a storm while wearing a full plate and being enfeebled 3, and you'd still have a check of like 17 at level 3.

[華子: Hanako]

Hmm... that makes Assurance like a Take Six if my STR is +4. Oddly, the language also seems to imply I could use Whirling Throw without penalty vs. larger creatures.

But then they're the guys with good Fort DCs, so Titan Wrestler is really my ticket to tripping giants.

Ah... the answer to this was posted literally 5 seconds before I posted!

[shroudb]

華子: Hanako wrote:

Hmm... that makes Assurance like a Take Six if my STR is +4. Oddly, the language also seems to imply I could use Whirling Throw without penalty vs. larger creatures.

But then they're the guys with good Fort DCs, so Titan Wrestler is really my ticket to tripping giants.

Yes.

But take note that if you tried whirling throw as your 3rd "attack" (it has the trait so it suffers from MAP) you'd have a -10 (or -8 if agile, not sure if this applies on maneuvers...) on the check that you also ignore with Assurance.

Hence the whole discussion of if it's worth it as the 3rd+4th maneuver via Flurry.

You don't get your str bonus and item bonus, but you also don't get the MAP penalty

[華子: Hanako]

Thank you all so much! These replies are quite helpful. I think I'll ditch Cat Fall for Assurance: Athletics at Lv.1

So then the benefit of Mixed is I can roll two maneuvers, and with Assurance, I can do two more with Flurry?

Curious about Flying Kick, the feat I probably won't take since the Lv.4-8 maneuver and throw feats are my preference. Flying Kick is two actions, so would I even need that feat if I have quick jump, powerful leap, etc? (Can't I just jump and kick as two actions?)

[shroudb]

華子: Hanako wrote:

Thank you all so much! These replies are quite helpful. I think I'll ditch Cat Fall for Assurance: Athletics at Lv.1

So then the benefit of Mixed is I can roll two maneuvers, and with Assurance, I can do two more with Flurry?

Curious about Flying Kick, the feat I probably won't take since the Lv.4-8 maneuver and throw feats are my preference. Flying Kick is two actions, so would I even need that feat if I have quick jump, powerful leap, etc? (Can't I just jump and kick as two actions?)

You can do the 2 more even without assurance. Assurance just lets you ignore MAP penalties by also ignoring your bonuses.

Flying kick is a bit different than both quick and powerful leap.

In order to understand it better it's first important to understand how jumping works :

There are two 100% different actions:
Leap and Long jump.

Leap is 1 action that lets you jump a small distance.
Long jump is 2 actions that combine both a Stride and then a Leap.

Powerful leap modifies Leap. That's pretty straightforward.
Quick jump changes Long jump to 1 action by REMOVING the stride.

Flying kick doesn't remove anything.

When you do a flying kick:
First you can stride as long as your stride is. Then you jump. Then you kick

So basically:
Quick jump+Strike: 2 actions to jump and hit.
Flying kick: 2 actions to stride, jump, and kick.

As an added bonus, flying kick allows to attack midair and modifies your fall.

[Blave]

Flying Kick allows you to Stride, High/Long Jump and Strike with 2 action total. Doing Quick Jump -> Strike wouldn't have the Stride (as per the Quick Jump feat) so you would cover less ground (even if the actual jump distance is the same).

[masda_gib]

華子: Hanako wrote:

Thank you all so much! These replies are quite helpful. I think I'll ditch Cat Fall for Assurance: Athletics at Lv.1

So then the benefit of Mixed is I can roll two maneuvers, and with Assurance, I can do two more with Flurry?

The benefit of Mixed is that you don't increase the MAP until after both maneuvers.

The benefit of Flurry is that it's 2 for 1 actions.

You can use Assurance on any maneuver check. It is not bound to any of these feats.

華子: Hanako wrote:

Curious about Flying Kick, the feat I probably won't take since the Lv.4-8 maneuver and throw feats are my preference. Flying Kick is two actions, so would I even need that feat if I have quick jump, powerful leap, etc? (Can't I just jump and kick as two actions?)

Without the feat, you would just fall down after your jump ends. You wouldn't get the chance to make an attack mid-air. That's what the feat allows.

[shroudb]

masda_gib wrote:

華子: Hanako wrote:

Thank you all so much! These replies are quite helpful. I think I'll ditch Cat Fall for Assurance: Athletics at Lv.1

So then the benefit of Mixed is I can roll two maneuvers, and with Assurance, I can do two more with Flurry?

The benefit of Mixed is that you don't increase the MAP until after both maneuvers.

The benefit of Flurry is that it's 2 for 1 actions.

You can use Assurance on any maneuver check. It is not bound to any of these feats.

華子: Hanako wrote:

Curious about Flying Kick, the feat I probably won't take since the Lv.4-8 maneuver and throw feats are my preference. Flying Kick is two actions, so would I even need that feat if I have quick jump, powerful leap, etc? (Can't I just jump and kick as two actions?)

Without the feat, you would just fall down after your jump ends. You wouldn't get the chance to make an attack mid-air. That's what the feat allows.

it also gives you a free full stride.

it's basically sudden charge for monks:

sudden charge is stride/stride/attack
flying kick is stride/jump/attack

[華子: Hanako]

Okay... I am slooooowly grasping how it all works. (I think.)

In summary, there are two level 4 feats I want. Here are all the Lv.4-12 monk feats that are straight-up fighting:

• Lv.4 Flurry of Maneuvers: do any two (hit, trip, grapple, shove) in one action; two MAPs, one after each attack.

• Lv.4 Flying Kick: move full stride and hit even in midair in two actions; one MAP after the kick.

• Lv.6 Whirling Throw: be awesome in one action, especially if there's a nearby cliff, window, staircase, manure cart or bar with lots of glass bottles; one MAP after the throw. I assume I need to grapple in my previous action.

• Lv.8 Mixed Maneuvers: two maneurs in two actions; only one MAP after both actions.

• Lv.10 Knockback Strike: a hit and a shove in two actions; only one MAP after both actions. This is probably the one I'd hold out on until Lv.14, if at all. By Lv.10 I should know how badly I'll want to both hit and shove in the same iterative. If not interested, Hanako can instead choose to remain youthfully pretty until she dies of old age.

• Lv.12 Improved Knockback: can use with any of the above shoves for better shoving distance and official damage for colliding with things that hopefully break and/or make hilarious noise, such as windows, staircases, ducks, champagne glass pyramids or Mom's favorite vase.

[masda_gib]

Nearly correct! :D

Mixed Maneuvers applies 2 MAPS after both actions (it only delays the one from the first maneuver but doesn't reduce anything).

[shroudb]

華子: Hanako wrote:

Okay... I am slooooowly grasping how it all works. (I think.)

In summary, there are two level 4 feats I want. Here are all the Lv.4-12 monk feats that are straight-up fighting:

• Lv.4 Flurry of Maneuvers: do any two (hit, trip, grapple, shove) in one action; two MAPs, one after each attack.

• Lv.4 Flying Kick: move full stride and hit even in midair in two actions; one MAP after the kick.

• Lv.6 Whirling Throw: be awesome in one action, especially if there's a nearby cliff, window, staircase, manure cart or bar with lots of glass bottles; one MAP after the throw. I assume I need to grapple in my previous action.

• Lv.8 Mixed Maneuvers: two maneurs in two actions; only one MAP after both actions.

• Lv.10 Knockback Strike: a hit and a shove in two actions; only one MAP after both actions. This is probably the one I'd hold out on until Lv.14, if at all. By Lv.10 I should know how badly I'll want to both hit and shove in the same iterative. If not interested, Hanako can instead choose to remain youthfully pretty until she dies of old age.

• Lv.12 Improved Knockback: can use with any of the above shoves for better shoving distance and official damage for colliding with things that hopefully break and/or make hilarious noise, such as windows, staircases, ducks, champagne glass pyramids or Mom's favorite vase.

whirling throw doesn't give and isn't affected by MAP.

it's not an attack.

so, as an example, you could Flury of maneuvers (1 action) at +0/-4 and grapple two nearby enemies. And then throw both of them (1 action to throw each) without suffering any penalties to your Athletic rolls to do so.

Or, you could Mixed Maneuvers, make 2 maneuvers (both at +0) for 2 actions, and then Throw. Again taking advantage that there is no MAP for Throw

The maneuver that i would ditch in your case is Shove: You can already "move" people around with Throw, so no need to add Shove into your arsenal imo. I mean, you'd still be able to do so either by mixed or by flurry if you really NEED to, but i don't think it's worth extra feats for those occasions.

i would certainly add Crushing grab (level 2 feat) in such a build, since it's just +4-7 damage in each of your grabs, and then probably grab a stance since all stances are actually quite nice.

Sleeper hold at 10 is also really nice for some extra conditions as well as potentially taking an opponent out of the fight, and because it's still a grapple check you get to apply Crushing grab as well.

for a maneuver expert/area denial character, i would probably go with either something defensive like Mountain stance (which later gives you Aoe knockdown) or Tangled forest for even more (passive) control options.

[華子: Hanako]

I was contemplating Mountain. I do like that quake stomp!

But what's Forceful? Is that like d8+STR, d8+STR+1, d8+STR+2...?

[shroudb]

yes:

if you do xd8+Str then it's xd8+str/xd8+str+x/xd8+str+2x and it caps at +2x

so, when you get your striking gloves it's not +1/+2, but it becomes +2/+4, with greater striking it's +3/+6 and with major striking +4/+8

[Xenocrat]

masda_gib wrote:

Yeah, that Assurance thing works best against opponents that are on the cliché-side of FORT or REF saves. For monsters you might have more luck with targetting REF, since most monsters are tough.

For example the Animated Statues or Golems are prime targets for tripping - heavy, slow, lumbering things. The Alchemical Golem will resist but you can even trip an Adamantine Golem while being one level lower.

Also a lot of things you fight will take a -1 or -2 to their saves from some sort of debuff, making marginal cases feasible for assurance maneuvers.

[華子: Hanako]

Thanks again. One more question:

It’s clear to me that Assurance: Athletics gets around penalties.

What about the Titan Wrestler feat? Would that negate penalties for Whirling Throw vs larger enemies? Or is that a feat needed to be able to use maneuvers at all against big guys at all?

(Granted, I expect I’m better off targeting reflex or Will saves against the large creatures—I have fascinating performance for incapacitation vs will. Hanako’s an actress. But still, throwing is awesome so I may as well ask.)

[shroudb]

華子: Hanako wrote:

Thanks again. One more question:

It’s clear to me that Assurance: Athletics gets around penalties.

What about the Titan Wrestler feat? Would that negate penalties for Whirling Throw vs larger enemies? Or is that a feat needed to be able to use maneuvers at all against big guys at all?

(Granted, I expect I’m better off targeting reflex or Will saves against the large creatures—I have fascinating performance for incapacitation vs will. Hanako’s an actress. But still, throwing is awesome so I may as well ask.)

All maneuvers have on their requirements:

"Requirements You have at least one hand free. Your target
can’t be more than one size larger than you."

Titan wrestler increases that to two sizes (and three sizes at legendary)