Expert in a skill at 1st level

[Krinn]

Is it possible to be expert in a skill at 1st level?
The rules for skills say that one can become expert in a skill at any level but I fail to find a documented case for level 1, is there one in the Core Rulebook?
Would it be unbalancing to grant an expert ranked skill at 1st level for a homebrew class, such as the Artificer? He would need Expert rank in Crafting and the Magical Crafting feat at 1st level in a way similar to the Alchemist.
Thanks.

[Deadmanwalking]

It is not possible right now, no. There's no rule inherently preventing it, but there's also no legal way to do it.

I, personally, would not grant Expert Skills at 1st level as it gets a tad weird, math-wise. It's much more balanced to grant such a thing at 2nd when Rogues can already gain Expert in a Skill.

[Aveneer]

There is a rule that prevents it. When you read on p233 about getting two skill ranks at first level, it says
"Sometimes you might gain training in a specific skill from multiple sources, such as if your background granted training in Crafting and you
took the alchemist class, which also grants training in Crafting. Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice."

So, no you can't. You get another skill ranked as trained, but you can't make a skill expert if you get it twice at first level.

[Bidmaron]

Well, if you did it, you would be doing it for short-term gain. Later, as you get all the ability plus-ups, you are better off getting a new trained skill at first level because you get to add an ability modifier that will be higher than +2 later in the character's life. So, I am almost certainly going to house rule that you can take a choice of either making something you are trained in expert for the short-term gain with the proviso that you cannot retrain it later if you make that choice.

[shade2077]

Barbarians, Bards, Fighters, Rangers and Rogues are all Expert in Perception at first level.

Note that Perception is also used for Sense Motive in PF2.

[Deadmanwalking]

Aveneer wrote:

There is a rule that prevents it.

This prevents stacking Trained to get it. It doesn't prohibit a Feat, Class, or anything else that just says 'Increase one Skill to Expert' and is available at 1st level.

There are no such things currently in existence, but no rule technically prevents their future existence.

[Can'tFindthePath]

Krinn wrote:

Is it possible to be expert in a skill at 1st level?

The rules for skills say that one can become expert in a skill at any level but I fail to find a documented case for level 1, is there one in the Core Rulebook?
Would it be unbalancing to grant an expert ranked skill at 1st level for a homebrew class, such as the Artificer? He would need Expert rank in Crafting and the Magical Crafting feat at 1st level in a way similar to the Alchemist.
Thanks.

I would use Alchemist as a template for Artificer, or even build an archetype for Alchemist.

[Miguel MacDaddy]

Krinn wrote:

Is it possible to be expert in a skill at 1st level?

The rules for skills say that one can become expert in a skill at any level but I fail to find a documented case for level 1, is there one in the Core Rulebook?
Would it be unbalancing to grant an expert ranked skill at 1st level for a homebrew class, such as the Artificer? He would need Expert rank in Crafting and the Magical Crafting feat at 1st level in a way similar to the Alchemist.
Thanks.

Actually, it is prohibited by a specific rule. It is outlined in each class' rules when it talks about the first and subsequent skill increases. It states in each that you are able to increase skill proficiencies from trained to expert at third level, expert to master at 7th, and at 15th level master to legendary.

[HammerJack]

Miguel MacDaddy wrote:

Krinn wrote:

Is it possible to be expert in a skill at 1st level?

The rules for skills say that one can become expert in a skill at any level but I fail to find a documented case for level 1, is there one in the Core Rulebook?
Would it be unbalancing to grant an expert ranked skill at 1st level for a homebrew class, such as the Artificer? He would need Expert rank in Crafting and the Magical Crafting feat at 1st level in a way similar to the Alchemist.
Thanks.

Actually, it is prohibited by a specific rule. It is outlined in each class' rules when it talks about the first and subsequent skill increases. It states in each that you are able to increase skill proficiencies from trained to expert at third level, expert to master at 7th, and at 15th level master to legendary.

No. That just defines your normal skill increases. If, for example, your class gets its first skill increase at 3, but you take Dandy Dedication as your second level class feat, you might have Deception, Society or both at Expert at level 2, anyway. If a class feat available at level 1 included a specific skill going to expert, in the same way, nothing would stop you from using it.

[Castilliano]

Normal skill increases cannot reach Expert until later levels.
Access to a skill multiple times at 1st cannot do this ever.
So there'd need to be a specific rule granting Expert (if Trained), which does exist...at 2nd. They're for Dedications that can't be taken until 2nd level. (These aren't MCD Feats, so aren't available to an Ancient Elf prematurely.)

I suppose if playing with the free Archetype alternative rules (which several players in these forums do), one might be able to have Expert at 1st w/ very select skills for specific archetypes. Yet for now there's no legal way to do it. Nor do I expect to see ever see that since even Rogues & Investigators cannot and they form the top of the skill curve.