Can you combine Cleave with Felling Smash? Want a char who can effectively fight 2 dudes at the same time.

[STR Ranger]

Hi,

Do we think a Cleave Attack (which must be declared) can trigger felling Smash?

I know alot of people think Cleave is subpar but having two adjacent enemies is not that uncommon in the games I play.

I am thinking of making a Trip Monkey Two Handed Smasher. Using Cleave, GTR Trip, Felling Smash and Cleaving Finish and maybe later Cleave through.Also a Fortuitous Weapon

Basic trick is to run up to paired opponents and Declare a Cleave.(using power attack)

1st attack Hits (with a Trip as a rider effect)
Make the 2nd attack against Bad Guy 2 (Since cleave is envisioned as the 1st swing 'cleaving' into the 2nd)

Now take your 2 AOO'S on the 1st dude you tripped (for a total of 3 attacks on dude 1)

IF you kill dude 1 with the 3 attacks, Cleaving Finish (which can trigger of an AOO) let's you hit the 2nd dude Again.

This would be 5 attacks (4 of 5 at your highest BAB)

If Dude on Doesn't Die of the 1st 3 hits you will get 2 AOO next round when
He tries to stand, that will trigger Cleaving Finish and you hit the 2nd dude again.

Does this scenario work?
Cleave Through is not required for this but allows a 5ft step for better hitting foes that are not right next to each other.

[Java Man]

Nope, cleave is it's own action, and felling smash requires a standard attack action.

[STR Ranger]

Ok, so cleave on the move to attack might not work but Cleaving Finish Would.

That makes Cleave just a preq feat.

So you could move +Felling Smash Bad Dude 1, taking 2 AOO'S from Greater Trip.
A total for 3 attacks, 2 which would be at your highest BAB.

Most opponents will die after 3 hits from a 2 handed fighter.

That would trigger Cleaving Finish letting you hit dude no 2

That's 4 Attacks vs 2 dudes off a standard action.

[STR Ranger]

Actually you could still get 5 Attacks if you had Hurtful.

The description for Cleaving Finish:

If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat.

So cleaving Finish is not actually a special action. It's just a free attack.
Which means you could use Cornugan Smash and Hurtful to drop a 5th attack.

To do this you need:
Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cornugan Smash, Hurtful, Combat Expertise, Imp Trip and Greater trip.

Feat heavy but let's you do 3 things:
2 hit 2 dudes on Move+ Attack up to 5 times.

Intimidate anyone you power attack.

Generate heaps of AOO's when either full attacking moving.

A Sickening and Fortuitous weapon is needed to amke this awesome but the combo is brutal

[Scott Wilhelm]

I want to make sure you realize that Hurtful and Felling Smash can't be used in the same round. Both require Swift Actions, and you only get 1 of those each round.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Java Man wrote:

Nope, cleave is it's own action, and felling smash requires a standard attack action.

You can't combine Tripping with Felling Smash, but you can combine Tripping and Great Cleave. Tripping is done in place of melee attacks, and Cleaving is basically a series of melee attacks.

To combine Tripping with extra attacks, there are you Attacks of Opportunity. Greater Trip gives you an Attack of Opportunity whenever you Trip someone. Vicious Stomp gives you an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity whenever someone fall prone next to you, and those do stack. Also, when a Prone opponent tries to get up, that provokes and Attack of Opportunity, too.

STR Ranger wrote:

Basic trick is to run up to paired opponents and Declare a Cleave.(using power attack)

How are you planning on using Paired Opportunist? I really like a 1 level dip in Cavalier. The Cavalier's Tactician ability gifts all your allies PO, and that puts you in business at the cost of only 1 level. There is a Paladin Archetype that gives you tactician at the cost of 3 levels, but it is better.

If you are thinking about Teamwork Feats and Attacks of Opportunity, you should seriously consider Broken Wing Gambit. With BWG, you and your Allies get Attacks of Opportunity whenever any of you is attacked. This is especially a good idea if you are thinking of PO anyway.

Another Feat to consider is Snake Fang. Snake Fang is a Snake Style Feat that gives you an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity whenever you are Attacked and Missed. That + Paired Opportunist can be devastating unless the party refuses to take the AoOs you are giving out--That's happened to me.

Another must-have Feat for Tripping is Fury's Fall. It lets you add your ST + Dex mods to your CMB.

Tripping has a Size Limit: you can't do if your opponent is more than 2 sizes bigger than you. I hate this rule. It is a stupid rule for stupid stupidheads. But it's a rule, so there you go. There is a magic Item, the Belt of Impossible Action that gets you around the limit. There is a Feat: Harder they Fall. It's a Teamwork Feat that works with Aid Another.

STR Ranger wrote:

I am thinking of making a Trip Monkey Two Handed Smasher.

You should consider Vital Strike Feats especially since you are thinking of Felling Smash. Both work on Standard Action Melee Attacks. You can double your Damage Dice, and Trip as a Swift Action and then get your 2 Attacks of Opportunity. Only the first attack gets double Damage Dice, but that's okay.

You should consider a dip into Ranger or something in order to use a Wand of Lead Blades. You inflict Damage as if you were 1 size bigger. Also, consider a dip into Living Monolith, which lets you Enlarge Person as a Swift Action. If you are using a Greatsword or something, your base damage goes up by 1d6/size increase, and that's nice.

[STR Ranger]

I have 2 builds planned for this:
Both assume having a Fortuitous Weapon.

Human Warpriest of Gorum:

This build is a Melee Smasher, Built around Tripping, Cleaving, Big hits and AOO by level 7.
By level 9 he prefers to charge a pair of foes, tripping one, hitting it with Felling Smash, then 2x on the ground, Due to Greater trip and probably killing it, (because of 3 2 handed power attacks) then Cleaving Finish into the adjacent foe.

13-15 he is adding Auto Intimidates foes he power attacks, Making them Shaken, Flat-footed and Sickened with his first strike. Via Cornugan Smash and a Fortuitous/Sickening Weapon.[/b]

Later levels, through this isn't central to the build, he can First shaken everyone in 30ft and do it again in round 2 making them all frightened.

1.Weapon Focus: Greatsword, H-, Feat- Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise
2. .
3. Feat- Power Attack, BF Cleave
4. .
5. Feat- Improved Trip
6. BF- Weapon SPL: Greatsword
7. Feat- Greater Trip
8. .
9. Feat- Felling Smash, BF- Cleaving Finish
10. .
11. Feat- Dazzling Display
12. BF- Greater Weapon Focus
13. Feat- Cornugon Smash
14. .
15. BF- Shatter Defences, Feat-Disheartening Display

And Here is a Dwarven Inquisitor Version:

Inquisitor:

1-Combat Relexes,Domain, judgement 1/day, spell sage, orisons, stern gaze
2- Cunning initiative, Knowledgeable Defense, track
3- Power Attack, Solo tactics,Paired Opportunists- Teamwork feat
4-Judgement 2/day
5-Bane, discern lies,Combat Expertise
6-Spell ScentTandem Trip- Teamwork Feat
7- Judgement 3/day, Improved Trip
8- Second judgement
9- Cleave,Broken Wing Gambit- Teamwork feat
10- Judgement 4/day
11- Stalwart,Greater Trip
12- Greater bane,Outflank, RAGE POWER- Guarded Stance +2 Dodge to AC
13- Judgement 5/day, Cleaving Finish
14- Witch’s Bane Judgement (Ex)
15-Cleave Through, Teamwork Feat- Wild Flanking
16- Judgement 6/day, third judgement, RAGE POWER- Reckless Abandon (-3 to AC, +3 to attack)

This Build can still run up and trip a dude (Standard to trip but no felling Smash so no damage), he still hits 2x because of GTR Trip and a Fortuitous Weapon. If he kills (via the 2x 2 handed Raging Power Attacks) he Cleaving Finishes into the next dude. (He can 5ft step because of Cleave through)

One less damaging attack than the Warpriest but hits way harder and generates more AOO's for himself in general play due to his teamwork feats.

[Scott Wilhelm]

So, what weapon are you using?

I see you are taking Outflank. That says Crit-fishing to me, and that says Elven Curved Blade to me. But I don't see Impvroved Crit nor Crit Focus.

You are Tripping. Are you using a Tripping weapon? People like Reach Tripping weapons. Here are some of my favorites:

Halberd: 1d10 Slashing and Piercing, Tripping And Brace.

Horschopper: 1d10 Slashing, Reach and Tripping.

Sickle or Kama: 1d6 slashing, Tripping, Light weapons: you can say fight with a sickle in 1 hand and a Bastard Sword or Katana in the other, although I was thinking Warhammer and Sickle and be the Soviet Union! The reason I like the idea of a small tripping weapon is that one of the big advantages of a tripping weapon is that if you make a catastrophic roll, you might get Tripped yourself, but if you are using a Tripping Weapon, you can just drop the weapon rather than get Tripped. If you drop your Halberd, you will miss it when it's gone. If you drop your sickle, you shrug your shoulders and pull out another one! Technically, you could get yourself a wrist cord and recover any Trip Weapon as a Move Action that does not provoke, but the GM might call shenannigans or find a way to punish you later.

Fauchard: not my favorite, but it's a big favorite: Tripping, Reach, 1d10 Slashing, and it has a Threat Range of 18-20. The problem is that it's an Exotic Weapon. If you are Tripping and Crit Fishing, this is an obvious Choice.

Throwing Shield: A Throwing weapon as a Tripping Weapon has some obvous appeal. Get a Blinkback Belt, and it returns as soon as your attack is resolved. Take Snapshot Feats, and you can then use your 'Shield for your Attack of Opportunity. With the Bashing Enchantment, your Shield will do a respectable 2d6 Damage. You would have to take a whole bunch of Feats to unlock all the coolness of this Exotic Weapon, and maybe you don't want to be Captain America.

Whip: or Zorro? Whips are Exotic Reach Weapons that can be used Adjacently. They don't do much Damage, but if you are going to be a Warpriest, that doesn't even matter. It also takes a lot of Feats to unlock, but you can use your Whip to Trip and Disarm, do Sacred Weapon Damage, and have a Reach of like 15-20'.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I saw you are thinking of the Stalwart Feat. IIRC, that requires you take Endurance and Diehard as Prerequisites.

For your undecided Inquisitor Feats, I recommend Harder They Fall, which will allow you to Trip creatures of any size. Another solid choice would be Coordinated Maneuvers: +2 on all Combat Maneuver Checks.

[Magda Luckbender]

Q: Can I combine Cleave with ...
A: No!

[Temperans]

Btw, you can grab Poised Bearing (or Imposing Bearing) and treat your size as 1 (2) larger for trip maneuvers. Combined with Tripping and you can trip a creature 4 categories larger.
Else, you can grab Quaking weapon enchantment, and trip anything in an area regardless of size as a standard action (It does mean no cleave).

As for other fun feats,

* Wolf Trip: If you deal enough damage with an AoO you can trip and reposition them. Which means you can always Vicious Stomp. Result: lots of trip AoO, Vivious Stomps, and you still have your full action.

* Brute Stomp: You can Vicious Stump any creature within your natural reach. And get an extra unarmed attack vs those that were already prone next to you. This combined with Wolf Style means lots of hits to anyone that stays in the floor.

* Octopus Thrash: Trip two enemies who are adjecent to each other in place of 1 melee attack. If this works with Cleave (potentially with the damage on trip feat) you can trip 4+ targets.
** With Cunning weapon you could potentially add 2d6 dmg to every trip. With Mighty Cleaving you can double back, or attack someone (besides the first) twice.

[Magda Luckbender]

@OP: There are techniques to effectively fight several foes at the same time, but you have not named them yet. Two approaches that apply, and can even be combined, are the hard-to-access 5 feat chain Whirlwind Attack and the easy to access reach tactics.

Reach tactics are used by an area defender build to get full BaB iterative attacks against multiple foes during the GM's turn. This approach requires only that your PC wield a reach weapon and is an excellent way to "effectively fight two dudes at the same time". This approach is probably why the longspear (qiang) is historically know as "The King of Battlefield Weapons". Works from first level onward.

Whirlwind Attack is a HUGE character investment that allows you, on your own turn, to make one full-BaB attack against each foe in your reach plus a 5' step. If your PC lacks much reach this is not a big area. If your PC uses tricks to extend reach this could be a 60'+ diameter circle. It's a long & costly feat chain and is only situationally effective. Can come online by level 5. Much cheaper and easier to get if you have both Brawler's Cunning and Martial Flexibility from one level of Brawler. It is a prime way to "effectively fight two dudes at the same time."

[*Khan*]

Weapon trick - cleaving Smash (combine cleave and vital strike)
Divine Fighting Technique - Greatsword Battler (add vitalstrike to cleave and aoo)
Advanced Divine Fighting Technique - Greatsword Battler (vitalstrikes is continous damage)
Fighter weapon training - warrior spirit (flexibel enchantments on your weapon)
Cleave Through (5ft. Step between cleaves - dwarf only)