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I think I have found an incredibly minor reason you might want to upgrade your gear using the rules from the armory page 8.
If you want to upgrade an existing weapon to be more effective, you can do so by selecting a weapon of the same type and category with a higher item level. You then pay the price of the new weapon, minus 10% of the price of the original weapon. You can do this yourself if you have the skill ranks to craft the new weapon, or have a professional do the work at the same price. If the weapon had one or more weapon fusions, an additional price must be paid equal to the price to move such a fusion from the original weapon to the new weapon.
Now upgrading it means it is still the same weapon unfortunately weapon fusions don't give any price savings or mechanical effects. But there is one thing that keys off price that isn't updated.
Computer Control modules cost 10% of the device being controlled. If you slap one of these on your level 1 gun you have a computer that can control it as you upgrade it.
Now downsides of this is that since it isn't mounted it can't aim the weapon. It can't really do anything except discharge it wildly by hit the on off switch of a trigger.
Really the only things this gives you is an inexpensive ammo tracker for energy weapons. But there is an incredibly minor and next to useless reason to upgrade your gear.
Any objections or campaign clarifications I am missing that prevent this from working?
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I can look for the question/answer statement by John Compton if you wish, he's repeated it a few times, but it basically goes like this:
"Hey! I've found a loophole in the system that (saves me money, gives me free stuff, generates an infinite effect, etc), is it legal?"
"No"
In this particular case, you'd have to get a new computer module to go with your new weapon. Thematically, it's the same weapon, just upgraded, but mechanically, it's a new weapon, and would need new controls.
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I can look for the question/answer statement by John Compton if you wish, he's repeated it a few times, but it basically goes like this:
"Hey! I've found a loophole in the system that (saves me money, gives me free stuff, generates an infinite effect, etc), is it legal?"
"No"
In this particular case, you'd have to get a new computer module to go with your new weapon. Thematically, it's the same weapon, just upgraded, but mechanically, it's a new weapon, and would need new controls.
I think you are referring to this FAQ.
I found a way to gain infinite money/power/etc. Is it legal?
No. While we recognize that creative players can find loopholes in the rules, any combination that would grant your character unlimited resources is not legal for use in Organized Play.
However 2 things prevent that from mattering. This in no way gives infinite money or power. It doesn't really have mechanical effects except make your gun more easily hackable.
Second that FAQ is in the pathfinder only section not the general one or the Starfinder section. So it doesn't apply to a game it isn't for. That would be like applying reload FAQs from pathfinder to starfinder. That isn't how games work.
Do you have some other section that prevents this?
I disagree that it is mechanically different weapons. If that was the case they wouldn't have to call out that you have to pay more for weapon fusions on your upgrade.
Also bear in mind that developer posts for a different game systems don't matter for a completely different game.
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Control
The control module allows the computer to operate a complex device, to which it must be in some way connected. (Simpler devices can be controlled as part of a computer’s basic functions.)Some countermeasures might make use of a computer’s control modules when activated. Gaining control of a computer allows the user to activate the devices in any way allowed by the control module. The price of a control module depends on the complexity of the object being controlled. The control module for a more complex device, such as a spy Drone, Starship, Vehicle, or weapon turret, costs 10% of the device to be controlled.
You can slap all of the computer control you want to onto a laser gun, the gun just sits there. To be computer controlled it needs to be in a turret, and i don't know of any SFS legal turrets you can buy.
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Control
The control module allows the computer to operate a complex device, to which it must be in some way connected. (Simpler devices can be controlled as part of a computer’s basic functions.)Some countermeasures might make use of a computer’s control modules when activated. Gaining control of a computer allows the user to activate the devices in any way allowed by the control module. The price of a control module depends on the complexity of the object being controlled. The control module for a more complex device, such as a spy Drone, Starship, Vehicle, or weapon turret, costs 10% of the device to be controlled.
You can slap all of the computer control you want to onto a laser gun, the gun just sits there. To be computer controlled it needs to be in a turret, and i don't know of any SFS legal turrets you can buy.
That is a non exhaustive list because commas. You can read it as
The control module for a more complex device costs 10% of the device to be controlled.Also I agree that you can't actually have the computer aim or make attacks. Unless the gun itself can move (which none I can find do) It will just sit there. The edge case benefit is that the computer can tell you things like how many times have you fired the gun. How much ammo has been loaded into it. All information you should have out of character but not necessarily in character.
Yeah it is just a gun that sits there but with an artificial personality you could have it say something whenever you shoot and track ammo usage.
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You seem to be really worried about corner cases that don't actually do anything. I mean, someone saving money by getting a 10% discount on something they could get for free by just describing a battery at x% gauge on their weapon isn't exactly a bargain.
Well I can't find a weapon that has a percent gauge on it and with this you can have that info auto sent to your comm unit and recorded by a computer. Maybe you want to to do some statistical analysis on your shots.
For society games it just means you shouldn't get table variation on which weapons have charge indicators.
If you spring for security upgrades you could have the computer control any biometric or telepathic lock upgrades you get. So you can more easily lock down your guns while still letting allies use them if needed. It provides minor but tangible benefits to have your guns controlled by a computer. Nothing gamebreaking just a neat little interaction of the rules I thought I would share. I was wondering if there was something I missed that stopped it from working.
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Well I can't find a weapon that has a percent gauge on it and with this you can have that info auto sent to your comm unit and recorded by a computer. Maybe you want to to do some statistical analysis on your shots.
Because there's no rule that says you don't know how many shots are in your gun. If we were doing a nitty gritty police drama or detective noir type game then yes Dirty Hairy the ysoki space gunner might forget whether his hand cannon had 1 or 0 shots left but we're doing a light space opera (or futurama depending...) Its information readily available to the player and nothing says it's not to the character.
If you spring for security upgrades you could have the computer control any biometric or telepathic lock upgrades you get.
The only weapon locks I'm aware of in the game come based on the manufacturers in the armory. They're not dependant on a control computer nor would a control computer bypass the upgrade costs.
It provides minor but tangible benefits to have your guns controlled by a computer. Nothing gamebreaking just a neat little interaction of the rules I thought I would share. I was wondering if there was something I missed that stopped it from working.
You seem to be houseruling not knowing how many shots you have left as well as either a house ruled locking mechanism or one I"m not familiar with.
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that FAQ is in the pathfinder only section not the general one or the Starfinder section. So it doesn't apply to a game it isn't for. That would be like applying reload FAQs from pathfinder to starfinder. That isn't how games work.
Also bear in mind that developer posts for a different game systems don't matter for a completely different game.
I have been involved in the Organized Play scene here for quite some time, so please listen to the differences I'm about to point out.
First, I need to clarify "sections" of the boards. There is a general Pathfinder section, a general Starfinder section, a Pathfinder Society section, and a Starfinder Society section (obviously in addition to the myriad others that don't matter for this discussion).
While you are correct that Pathfinder rules FAQs don't answer Starfinder rules questions, Pathfinder Society FAQs are applicable to Starfinder Society. Campaign Leadership has already stated that the two current FAQs will be merged when Pathfinder Society concludes this summer. The rules for Paizo Organized Play are similar, regardless of what system you're playing.
Next, I need to clarify "Designers" vs "Developers" and "Campaign Leadership".
Designers are the game creators, like Jason Bulmahn (for Pathfinder) and Owen Stephens (for Starfinder). They write the rules, handle FAQs, and answer questions for each of their areas of expertise. Similar to how FAQs for one system aren't applicable for the other, you're probably better off asking Owen a Starfinder question than Jason (although they each work in nearby offices so one could easily just shout down the hall to the other).
Developers write content using the rules that Designers created. Developers know their stories and can answer questions about plot or motivations. They aren't (generally) good for answering rules questions, but they should probably be regarded higher than the average Joe when considering a specific rule that their story revolves around.
Campaign Leadership is in charge of Organized Play. Tonya Woldridge is the Global Campaign Coordinator overseeing both Starfinder Society and Pathfinder Society, Thurston Hillman is the Starfinder Society lead and John Compton is the Pathfinder Society lead. These three people (and a handful of others) attend the same meetings, run their campaigns using the same principles and know the same guidelines. If someone asks a Starfinder Society question, and John happens to answer, his word is just as good as Thurston's.
The rules may differ (Prestige vs Reputation, credits vs gold, Etc), but the guidelines for Organized Play are the same.
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Well I can't find a weapon that has a percent gauge on it and with this you can have that info auto sent to your comm unit and recorded by a computer. Maybe you want to to do some statistical analysis on your shots.Because there's no rule that says you don't know how many shots are in your gun. If we were doing a nitty gritty police drama or detective noir type game then yes Dirty Hairy the ysoki space gunner might forget whether his hand cannon had 1 or 0 shots left but we're doing a light space opera (or futurama depending...) Its information readily available to the player and nothing says it's not to the character.
If you spring for security upgrades you could have the computer control any biometric or telepathic lock upgrades you get.The only weapon locks I'm aware of in the game come based on the manufacturers in the armory. They're not dependant on a control computer nor would a control computer bypass the upgrade costs.
It provides minor but tangible benefits to have your guns controlled by a computer. Nothing gamebreaking just a neat little interaction of the rules I thought I would share. I was wondering if there was something I missed that stopped it from working.You seem to be houseruling not knowing how many shots you have left as well as either a house ruled locking mechanism or one I"m not familiar with.
So for knowing how many shots are in your gun if you load it with enemy batteries you have no way to access that information. They might not have been fully charged you might not remember how many shots they fired.
Yes I am talking about the manufacturer locks the Iratha Incorporated and the Ereus Teletech. They are integrated into the gun so if you have computer control of the gun you can control their functions. So you can add a registered user to the gun with voice commands if you have an artificial personality equipped computer controlling it. Yes you would still have to pay the upgrade cost for these as you upgrade the gun since they modify the price of the gun.
Basically what I am saying is that you can have the computer control any bells and whistles on the gun and if you are using enemy batteries know how many charges are left.
I know most people just tell players how many charges are left but the character doesn't know if that mook was practicing earlier or shot a puppy or what with that battery.
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I was a bit unclear when I initially stated this so let me restate it plainly.
Preconditions.
You are using a battery that you have found or captured from an enemy. You don't know the charge level of this battery.
Ammo readouts are not mentioned as a feature for all guns.
Computer rules allow you to know things about systems they control or are hooked up to.
If these are met you can use a computer controlling your gun to give you ammo readouts for batteries you put in it. Not particularly useful but it gives you in character knowledge.
Secondly that the price of the control module is not influenced by upgrading the weapon via the upgrade rules later.
So there is a minor benefit to upgrading your guns.
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There's a LOT of if here...
Preconditions.
You are using a battery that you have found or captured from an enemy.
happens often...
You don't know the charge level of this battery.
I think every time I've seen a battery or powered weapon as loot it's said X number of charges on it.
I haven't seen anything that would indicate that i was supposed to hide that info from players.
The idea that an engineering kit doesn't have a voltmeter or the equivalent would seem weird to me.
I don't think you need to do the thing you're doing to get the information you're getting.
Yes I am talking about the manufacturer locks the Iratha Incorporated and the Ereus Teletech. They are integrated into the gun so if you have computer control of the gun you can control their functions.
I'm not sure you can put a computer control module in a gun. That doesn't seem to be what they're for. The idea that you HAVE to put a computer control module on a gun to get basic information about it seems completely random.
So there is a minor benefit to upgrading your guns.
I think I've spent more on a bar tab than this might save but ok...
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I think you can use an engineering kit and have the same results. You just have to track that in character instead.
I am not saying this can give anything significant. It just means you can say give your computer a name and say, "Hey maddy how many shots are left in my gun?" and get an answer. It is also cheaper than a first glance at the rules would imply if you upgrade the gun instead of buying a new one.
While out of character it is easier to give players that info this makes it as simple as a move action to determine a battery charge in game.
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I don't see that batteries should be treated any different than ammunition clips or any other form of fantasy ammunition that Starfinder creates: you know how many shots you have.
Now, what I wouldn't at all be surprised by is a frustrated GM asking a habitually distracted player that has been full attacking all scenario long through a combat scenario, "How many charges do you have left?" The player responds, "I don't know, but my character would know. You tell me." Which then leads the GM to say, "I'm not your accountant. If you didn't keep track, you don't know. Your battery is empty."
It not being the GM's responsibility to track PCs' ammunition does not mean that PCs don't have an easy way to tell how many shots they have (and attaching a computer to your laser isn't going to make me as the GM keep track for you).
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I don't see that batteries should be treated any different than ammunition clips or any other form of fantasy ammunition that Starfinder creates: you know how many shots you have.
Now, what I wouldn't at all be surprised by is a frustrated GM asking a habitually distracted player that has been full attacking all scenario long through a combat scenario, "How many charges do you have left?" The player responds, "I don't know, but my character would know. You tell me." Which then leads the GM to say, "I'm not your accountant. If you didn't keep track, you don't know. Your battery is empty."
It not being the GM's responsibility to track PCs' ammunition does not mean that PCs don't have an easy way to tell how many shots they have (and attaching a computer to your laser isn't going to make me as the GM keep track for you).
I am not saying the gm should keep track of that. But this is a way to have easy access in character to ooc character bookkeeping information.
It is just a minor thing so there is no metagaming.|
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I can count, and I assume even my 8 Intelligence character can count. So, if I know my laser has 20 shots in it, and I make 5 shots, I know I have 15 more shots in that battery.
If you're the GM and you tell me that I don't know how many shots I have left because the weapons section doesn't list a shot counter or battery guage in the description so I'm "metagaming" if my character acts like he knows and changes batteries when it gets pretty low before the next room, I might just excuse myself from the table right then.
If the player has no way to know the information, then the GM would have to track it.
It is thus much easier for the GM to tell the player how much ammo a weapon has when the player gets it and then let the player track it afterwards.
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Another note: This upgrade rule on p. 8 applies explicitly to weapons. Is there any similar passage about computer upgrades? All I can find is the section on improving power armor, but it expressly works differently than this weapon rule, suggesting the weapon upgrade rule doesn't apply u firmly to all gear.
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I can count, and I assume even my 8 Intelligence character can count. So, if I know my laser has 20 shots in it, and I make 5 shots, I know I have 15 more shots in that battery.
If you're the GM and you tell me that I don't know how many shots I have left because the weapons section doesn't list a shot counter or battery guage in the description so I'm "metagaming" if my character acts like he knows and changes batteries when it gets pretty low before the next room, I might just excuse myself from the table right then.
Yes if you are using a batteyr with known charges it is as simple as
20-4=YSolve for Y
You have every right to get upset at a dm who does that. That isn't what I am saying. If you use a battery form an enemy it is different.
If you take a battery from an enemy you do not know how many shots were in it. You have no way of knowing if it was discharged before you showed up and killed them for it.
You can track the shots he fired at you but that doesn't really help.
if he fired 4 shots it is
X-4=Y
Solve for Y.
Now in any game I would recommend just telling the player Y because it is easier but this lets you have in character access to this information.
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Another note: This upgrade rule on p. 8 applies explicitly to weapons. Is there any similar passage about computer upgrades? All I can find is the section on improving power armor, but it expressly works differently than this weapon rule, suggesting the weapon upgrade rule doesn't apply u firmly to all gear.
Ok so here is the order of operations for this and why it saves a tiny bit of money.
Step 1 Buy level 1 gun
Step 2 Buy computer
Step 3 Get artificial personality upgrade for it
Step 4 install control module for 10& of level 1 gun
Step 5 Upgrade level 1 gun to a level 5 gun
Step 6 Control module doesn't need to be upgraded since it is still the same gun
You receive the benefits of a control module while paying a fraction of the cost
Now what those benefits are is nebulous and mostly just nonsense bookkeeping that won't really matter. It isn't mounted so firing it is a no go.
Ammo count doesn't really matter unless your gm hates you.
It can run some attachments that you put on it for you via voice commands.
Basically you can get a voice activated flashlight or rangefinder or whatever, that is on your gun for cheaper than normal.
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If the player has no way to know the information, then the GM would have to track it.It is thus much easier for the GM to tell the player how much ammo a weapon has when the player gets it and then let the player track it afterwards.
Yeah I agree you should just tell players how much ammo is left ahead of time. If you have hardcore roleplayers they might want an IC explanation.
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Both my lawnmower battery and several of my personal electronic USB external batteries have buttons you can push, which show how much charge is left. There is no reason to suspect that the batteries you obtain would be specifically designed to be less easily useful than 20th century technology.
If we can assume the guns can be bluetoothed into a computer, then we can assume they have a digital charge/ammo display.
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There's lots of things in the game that save money
The fusion hop (low level fusion from an item 2 to a level 7 rather than putting it on a 7)
Buying professional tools and a professional outfit right off the bat to earn the money back in 3 dayjobs.
Not upgrading armor/weapons more than you have to
Using 3 mk 1 healing serums as opposed to 1 mk 3 healing serum...
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Circumstance bonuses stack if they come from different sources.
It's explained in "bonus types".
"Fusion hop" I used to think was a loophole, but then I saw someone come up with the math and it seemed within the limits of WBL.
Buy a Level 1 Weapon, and a Level 1 Fusion.
When it's time to buy a new Level X Weapon, you can transfer the Fusion from your Level 1 Weapon to the Level X Weapon for X/2, whereas if you just bought a new Fusion it would cost you X.
This helps save money keeping your "Called", "Defiant" and other cheap fusions with your character.
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Professional outfits and tools are both circumstance bonuses, so they don't stack do they?
They're different circumstances so they stack (one makes you better at your job one makes you look good doing it
I am not following the fusion hop.
When you transfer a fusion instead of buying it outright (which takes a rank in mysticism) you only pay half the cost of the fusion. Depending on the differences in item level , the level of the fusion, whether you have a spare gun lying around etc. it can sometimes be a lot cheaper to put say, merciful on a level 2 gun and move it onto a level 7 gun rather than just putting it directly on a level 7 gun.
While it looks a little exploity, I think it's a backdoor way to have lower level fusions have a lower level cost despite being on a higher level weapon.
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You seem to be really worried about corner cases that don't actually do anything. I mean, someone saving money by getting a 10% discount on something they could get for free by just describing a battery at x% gauge on their weapon isn't exactly a bargain.
I am going to come back to this. For me I think there is a difference between reading a battery or ammo gauge and being able to ask my AI companion bound into my gun how much ammo I have.
I understand that mechanically they might as well be the same thing. I just think it is cooler and might matter for some people's characters.
Also I guess you can check it blind.
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If you take a battery from an enemy you do not know how many shots were in itCitation?Agreed.
Bullets or arrows or charges I think if there were a difference it would be spelled out.
Here are the battery rules
The Rules don't mention a battery gauge. They also don't forbid them. They are silent on this matter. While I think it is better to have them or just tell players and characters how many charges are in batteries that appears to be a GM Ruling thing.
This minor things lets you get that information while hopefully avoiding table variation all at a discount for higher end guns.
I am not saying people are wrong to just tell players battery levels.
I am not saying this is a super useful omg madhaxxxer skills exploit.
This is a corner case of computer rules not requiring you to change the control module if the price of the controlled object changes AFTER you have installed it.
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I don't get why you seem to think this is some big revelation.
So you ran through 5 or 6 gray areas of the rules that can be read one way to save money on a mechanically useless thing that may not even be legal. OK... and...?
Ravingdork said that there was no point in upgrading your gear and I was looking for something that it gave a minor benefit to. I don't think it is some big Revelation. I don't think this really matters at all.
I think this a minor corner case of the computer rules and upgrading rules giving an unintended result. I thought it was neat and that other people might want to know. So I shared it. That's all.
If they ever release some magic computer that does stuff it might matter but until then it is just a cool little game design quirk.
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I think this a minor corner case of the computer rules and upgrading rules giving an unintended result.
Then a more reasonable interpretation of the rules would be to have to pay the extra cost of the computer upgrade along with upgrading your gun, per the precedent set by the fusions.
Not really seeing why this is in the organized play section.