Create undead still limited?

[Jur'ik]

Hey guys, just curious on whether or not create undead is still limited to Ghoul/Ghast/Mummy/Mohrg or if the Undead introduced in the bestiaries that list create undead as a creation method are also able to be made? If not, is there any current source that adds to the list or is my necromancer stuck waiting until we find something with natural weapons in the scenario to do his thing?

[BigNorseWolf]

I believe so

[Azothath]

At this point in time (and probably forever for PFS1) all the Bestiary entries in Addt'l Res follow a similar format. Animal Companions, Familiars, Feats, Other. Other only addresses polymorph effects and languages. So no additions to Create Undead in PFS.

=== commentary ===

BTW you lose all your created undead at the end of a scenario. Thus creating undead (carryover HD of PC goons) is a discouraged path to power in PFS. Carryovers are limited in PFS.

on the up side there is no restriction on possessing a mundane corpse from adventure to adventure. So it might be convenient to get a sack and a tiger skeleton to animate at the start of an adventure. When destroyed/killed, animated creatures fall apart at 0 HPs and are then objects with hardness taking half damage. Objects can be mended(Mending) or repaired using Make Whole. Thus now it is gp costs for onyx and the spells. Shrink Item, Gentle Repose, Restore Corpse might be handy. Generally undead are not welcome at VC meetings at the start of an adventure as they tend to eat all the complimentary bagels or baklava.

[The Ghost of Balin Moonsong]

Or attempt to eat the VCs, but that just requires discipline....

[BigNorseWolf]

Stephen Ross wrote:

on the up side there is no restriction on possessing a mundane corpse from adventure to adventure. So it might be convenient to get a sack and a tiger skeleton to animate at the start of an adventure. When destroyed/killed, animated creatures fall apart at 0 HPs and are then objects with hardness taking half damage. Objects can be mended(Mending) or repaired using Make Whole. Thus now it is gp costs for onyx and the spells. Shrink Item, Gentle Repose, Restore Corpse might be handy. Generally undead are not welcome at VC meetings at the start of an adventure as they tend to eat all the complimentary bagels or baklava.

This is skirting kinda close to the whole carrying stuff over from previous scenarios, and how destroyed corpses are is always a lil iffy.

[TwilightKnight]

Stephen Ross wrote:

on the up side there is no restriction on possessing a mundane corpse from adventure to adventure

I disagree. Found items (in this case a corpse) can only be kept for the next scenario if it appears on your chronicle sheet or it’s something you can buy. AFAIK you cannot buy a corpse and it’s never appeared on a chronicle sheet. I would not allow you to keep it beyond the scope of the scenario it was found. Sometimes the episodic nature of PFS with an undefined rest period can be a great help; other times not so much. I believe this is a case of the latter.

[BigNorseWolf]

Corpses you find *cough* that were totally like that when you got there *cough cough* on the other hand seem to be plentiful around pathfinders...

[Azothath]

=== ongoing commentary ===

Buy your spell targets as pets if you want to reduce table variance. Buy the pet and keep it (or what's left after combat) so that it appears on your chronicle. Remember that in PFS your level determines HD of available pets with the exception of horses (common mounts). You will also have to slot it into one of the pet roles for PFS (active, anml cmpn, familiar, mount). While you are allowed to have multiple pets, you can only have(bring) ONE in the active role in an adventure.

Temporary creatures don't have that issue (creatures you find in the scenario).

That is a more restrictive reading than considering the corpse as a mundane material component, foci, or spell target without cost (as a previous poster noted there is no associated cost). The HD of the final creature (size) is the mechanical rub where GMs want some game balance.

I'm going to clarify (as some readers may get the wrong idea) the undead you create still 'fall down' at the end of the adventure and you have to reanimate them at the next (the SPELL does not carry over). What I am pointing out is that you can start the adventure with the components on hand (as being mundane they should carryover). Note that my original post stated the ongoing cost of onyx and expending the spell.

[Azothath]

=== commentary ===
I think there's a bit of a disconnect between what is acceptable practice and how this process works as defined in RAW and how it interacts with existing PFS rules. The "hot button issue" probably gets in the way of thinking through this and is going to increase the table variance.
Thus, I expect there to be some considerable table variance on this issue and that's fine, part and parcel of running a necromancer. The trick is to see what falls within the rules as they are and trying to keep it within the rules. I agree that the guide doesn't intentionally or knowingly go into this area, it's a classic corner case and left to individual GMs.

Guide v10 p37, Purchasing Guidelines wrote:

You can use any item that you find during the adventure for free until the end of the adventure, but you must purchase the item when the adventure is over in order for your character to be able to continue to use the item. Items used during adventures remain the size they are and may not be resized unless purchased. Items consumed or destroyed for any reason are not crossed off on the Chronicle sheet. Items given to NPCs or that are used as spell components are crossed off.

has interesting logical inferences;

Literally, items with no cost (found and used in an adventure) can be purchased at no cost "to be able to continue to use the item".

Broken items are not crossed off the Chronicle sheet but used material components are. Here they are referring to line items on the chronicle. The twist is that if a corpse is found and written on the chronicle it should not be crossed off even if it is broken.

Again, another route where a cost is demanded is to use the pet rules. This provides a more costly but defined path.

I'll end again with the fact that this is PFS and there will be some table variance. I'd talk to your GM before the game starts to make sure you know his ground rules and that you are not going to offend other players at the table.

[TwilightKnight]

Stephen Ross wrote:

Literally, items with no cost (found and used in an adventure) can be purchased at no cost "to be able to continue to use the item"

I disagree. Items must be legally purchased at the end of the scenario which means it either must be available per your Fame or listed as a found item on the chronicle sheet (no you cannot simply hand write it in and suddenly have access to it). Unless/until a corpse exists on a purchase list somewhere approved in the AR, you cannot keep it. Just because a corpse is not listed as a purchasable item does not mean it has no cost. It simply means the price is indeterminate because it is not defined by the game mechanics.

[Azothath]

rather than bog this post down it's really more a Rules question within PFS so I'll move my chat there. There are a few critical questions that remain unaddressed since 2016.

Corpses being in the CRB are part of the core assumption. A similar issue was initially encountered with spell components that had no listed cost. Those became free in PFS and part of a spell component pouch.

[Jur'ik]

Okay, so to clarify I have a 12th level cleric necromancer. Up until now I've been exclusively animating creatures I encounter in the scenarios and losing them at the end of the scenario. The main question was whether or not there were any other legal sources that provide options for create undead. In place of that, are there any good pets to have as reanimation targets at 12th level?