Do scopes increase a weapon's maximum range?

[Ravingdork]

I'm of the mind that scopes increase range increments of a weapon, thereby lowering the range penalties to hit and increasing the weapon's maximum range.

However, another player recently brought to my attention that, that may not be the case. They think you still use the original maximum range (generally the weapon's range increment times 10), but you use the scope's modified range increment to determine the final penalty.

I don't believe that to have been the intent of the designers, as it simply sounds too complex to be good game design. Does anyone else know how this is meant to work, or would like to weigh in with their own thoughts?

Here's the relevant text, as well as the point of contention in bold:

Scope wrote:

A scope is a telescopic sighting device with an incorporated reticle that attaches to a small arm or railed weapon’s top rail. A scope can’t be added to a weapon with a sight. As a move action, you can aim through a scope. This can be done as part of the same move action required to aim a weapon with the sniper weapon special quality, or as part of a sneak attack where you do not take any movement even if you also aim a sniper weapon as part of that action. Aiming through a scope reduces penalties to attack rolls due to range as well as bonuses to AC from cover.

In addition, a scope increases a weapon’s range increment for determining penalties to attack rolls due to range. For small arms, a scope increases the weapon’s normal range increment to 1-1/2 times its listed range for this purpose. For longarms and heavy weapons, the increase is 4 times the normal range increment. For sniper weapons, the increase is twice the range increment of the sniper special property. The reduction in penalties due to aiming with a scope applies only to the next attack roll you make with the weapon before the end of your next turn. Scopes also confer other benefits depending on their type.

You can also view distant objects through a scope as a move action, which grants you a +1 circumstance bonus to vision-based Perception checks against objects 30 feet or farther from you. You can use a scope for this purpose when it is not attached to or integrated with a weapon. A detached scope does not provide improved accuracy.

[Xenocrat]

What's the contention, exactly? That the developers didn't mean what they wrote, and actually meant to include things that this language explicitly excludes? I think it's clear that your preferred interpretation isn't supported by the rule's language.

Incidentally, this gives us the intersting situation where a pistol with a sight/scope only has 6.67 effective penalty increments, a longarm/heavy weapon has 2.5, and a sniper has 5. So at max range (unmodified by the scope/sight) a pistol has a -12 penalty due to range, a longarm/heavy weapon a -4, and a sniper a -8 (all before move actions to aim, bipods, or reductions from the Far Shot feat). Which isn't totally bizarre, as pistols are notoriously inaccurate at long range, it's not actually that hard to hit things with a scoped assault rifle near max range, but I gather sniping at extreme range is quite hard and requires a lot of skill.

[Nimor Starseeker]

Here are my two cents:

To answer your question I ask you in return:
What would it take to increase the maximum range of a firearm?
In my opinion the weapon would have to become more powerful somehow and a scope will not make a firearm more powerful, but it will increase accuracy at longer ranges (within the fire arm maximum).

I think scopes do not increase your maximum range, they increase accuracy.

[Xenocrat]

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

Here are my two cents:

To answer your question I ask you in return:
What would it take to increase the maximum range of a firearm?
In my opinion the weapon would have to become more powerful somehow and a scope will not make a firearm more powerful, but it will increase accuracy at longer ranges (within the fire arm maximum).

I think scopes do not increase your maximum range, they increase accuracy.

Right, range limits of modern firearms are physical limits, not based on quality of sights.

For example, the M16 has an effective range of 500m vs point targets (a dude) and 800m vs area targets (a group of dudes or encampment). The point limitation isn't because small targets are harder to aim at and a better scope would help you extend out to that 800m, it's because the physics of the bullet mandate that it has too much random spin and dispersion past 550m. But it still has enough energy to (less accurately) travel and do some damage, so you can still hit at a random point inside a certain area out to 800m.

For energy weapons in Starfinder the physical limit would presumably be beam coherence past a certain point. A scope/sight isn't going to make the photons stick together any longer.

[Nefreet]

Didn't realize this needed a new thread.

My post from the other thread wrote:

How does a little magnifying glass glued to the tip of your rifle cause your bullet to fly farther?

[HammerJack]

The way the rule is written, it definitely does not affect maximum range.

As for whether the rule is intended to do that, it's possible that this was a mistake, but I really don't see any evidence to make me think that the rule is not intended to work as written. There is nothing illogical about weapons retaining the same maximum range, and only a minor complication is introduced, in uncommon circumstances.

[Metaphysician]

Being fair, the "maximum range" rules in Starfinder might well not be intended to represent the maximum distance that the beam/projectile can reach while still carrying damaging energy. Rather, it just as easily could be the maximum range that the weapon has enough accuracy to have any chance to hit something by anything but sheer dumb luck. Sure, there might be edge cases where that extra reach might matter ( shooting at something the size of a small building, say ), but its rare enough to be unimportant.

That said, yeah, I lean to "scopes do not increase maximum range". Even if the above scenario *is* true, better optics is not going to effect beam spread or projectile drift. Or at least, it isn't going to effect it unless the "scope" specifically uses superscience or magic to alter such. Which is to say, there totally can be "scopes" that also increase maximum range, they just are higher level more expensive items.

[Nerdy Canuck]

Xenocrat wrote:

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

Here are my two cents:

To answer your question I ask you in return:
What would it take to increase the maximum range of a firearm?
In my opinion the weapon would have to become more powerful somehow and a scope will not make a firearm more powerful, but it will increase accuracy at longer ranges (within the fire arm maximum).

I think scopes do not increase your maximum range, they increase accuracy.

Right, range limits of modern firearms are physical limits, not based on quality of sights.

For example, the M16 has an effective range of 500m vs point targets (a dude) and 800m vs area targets (a group of dudes or encampment). The point limitation isn't because small targets are harder to aim at and a better scope would help you extend out to that 800m, it's because the physics of the bullet mandate that it has too much random spin and dispersion past 550m. But it still has enough energy to (less accurately) travel and do some damage, so you can still hit at a random point inside a certain area out to 800m.

For energy weapons in Starfinder the physical limit would presumably be beam coherence past a certain point. A scope/sight isn't going to make the photons stick together any longer.

It's worth noting that that 500 meters is longer than anything other than a Sniper Rifle in Starfinder, at least going off a quick scan of the Core Book and Armory.

[Ravingdork]

Metaphysician wrote:

Being fair, the "maximum range" rules in Starfinder might well not be intended to represent the maximum distance that the beam/projectile can reach while still carrying damaging energy.

This. This is pretty much the way I imagined it.

[Nerdy Canuck]

Ravingdork wrote:

Metaphysician wrote:

Being fair, the "maximum range" rules in Starfinder might well not be intended to represent the maximum distance that the beam/projectile can reach while still carrying damaging energy.

This. This is pretty much the way I imagined it.

I mean, they pretty much can't be meant to represent the maximum distance a projectile can reach and deal damage, because they don't account for variation in atmosphere and gravity - fire a bullet in vacuum, and the "how far can it go and do damage" number would be functionally infinite.

[Nefreet]

It is infinite.

[Nerdy Canuck]

Interesting - and incredibly strange. It should be vacuum having that impact, not zero-g; gravity doesn't impact how far the bullet flies save for if it eventually lands - and certainly it doesn't impact a laser.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

That language precludes ranged weapons having their max range extended by scopes.
It also, for example, prevents a blast weapon with a scope getting a cone 4 times as long as it would without s cope.

[Nefreet]

Thank you ^_^

[Neuromancer]

Xenocrat wrote:

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

Here are my two cents:

To answer your question I ask you in return:
What would it take to increase the maximum range of a firearm?
In my opinion the weapon would have to become more powerful somehow and a scope will not make a firearm more powerful, but it will increase accuracy at longer ranges (within the fire arm maximum).

I think scopes do not increase your maximum range, they increase accuracy.

Right, range limits of modern firearms are physical limits, not based on quality of sights.

For example, the M16 has an effective range of 500m vs point targets (a dude) and 800m vs area targets (a group of dudes or encampment). The point limitation isn't because small targets are harder to aim at and a better scope would help you extend out to that 800m, it's because the physics of the bullet mandate that it has too much random spin and dispersion past 550m. But it still has enough energy to (less accurately) travel and do some damage, so you can still hit at a random point inside a certain area out to 800m.

For energy weapons in Starfinder the physical limit would presumably be beam coherence past a certain point. A scope/sight isn't going to make the photons stick together any longer.

I suppose the real world upgrade the weapons barrel and use different ammo would be one way of improving the maximum range - its just that Starfinder didn't go down say the traveller route of being more based on real world weapons.

[Ravingdork]

Thanks Owen! Nice to have some clarity on the issue of intent.