Not to end up just ranting somewhat but I'm rather frustrated by armor in pathfinder, namely in the fact that there are basically a number of armors that are straight up better than other armor types. (also I'm just listing the core armors because I can't scrounge up the FULL list right now)
Light
Padded is trash even though Gambeson is generally really useful in history and interesting.
Leather is.. not trash but still overshadowed over time
Studded Leather is the best cheap light armor you can get, but how the hell does adding studs to something make it better at protecting you?
Chain Shirts are generally the light armor everyone will wear eventually unless they have +6 or higher dex bonus (Since +5 is the max for a mithral chain shirt).
Celestial mail just flips all of these armors the bird by being just better in general than them for no real cost.
Medium
Hide is basically only ever used in 3 specific scenarios. 1: you're a low level druid so you can't wear metal but want medium armor, even though your combat abilities should be focused on Wild Shape anyway. 2: You're a Barbarian choosing it specifically for Flavor. 3: you have a very specific suit of hide armor that you really want to use (like Giant Hide or the like)
Scale Mail is the cheap "I want medium armor at level 1" Armor, but have you EVER seen someone purposely go after scale mail after that?
Chainmail is getting better, but is still overshadowed by... (and basically all of the +6 armor have this same problem)
Breastplate: Lower check penalty and higher max dex bonus at the cost of 50 gold, which... who cares? you're probably picking it anyway. Either that or you're using Celestial Mail because it has all the advantages of chain but as a Light Armor
Heavy
Splint, Banded, Half-Plate, etc. All of these are the "I don't have the cash for full plate" armors.
Full Plate is the meta.
Is there any sort of way one could rebalance armors to give all of them a reason to be used?
What's your goal here? Is your frustration with the fact that PCs pick the same armor all the time in-universe, or is it with the fact that most armors are effectively "traps" and there are limited choices if you don't want to be sub-optimal?
If it's the former, just allow players to describe their armor however they want regardless of its stats. You'll now see people actually wearing scale male and chainmail (as reflavored breastplates) because they often think those armor styles look or sound cooler.
If it's the latter, I suggest fiddling with the ACP or movement speed. Whenever an armor seems strictly inferior to another armor, decrease its ACP by 1 or increase movement by 5 feet, and then ask yourself if there are situations where you'd now choose it over the formerly-superior option. Armored bricks will never care, but the Acrobatics Vigilante wearing medium armor might.
EDIT: I should note that I believe metal armors should be slightly better than non-metal armors because there are a significant number of miscellaneous effects that target people wearing metal, like the Kineticist's electric blast.
In reality some types of armor are simply better than others. Those types of armor tend to be more expensive but player characters have the cash to afford them. The other types of armor are often significantly cheaper so are used by those that cannot afford them.
The less expensive armor is also popular when equipping an army. When you need to purchase a hundred suits of armor for you troops scale mail looks pretty good. Almost no other armor can equal is protection per gp.
I've slowly been working on something like this. I first removed a number of armors because they either made no/little sense or were too similar to other armors, some I simply renamed. I gave some armor inherent DR to certain types of damage types.
For instance, a gambeson (thick) has DR 3/- against bludgeoning attacks and arrows, bolts, darts, shuriken, thrown daggers, and other light piercing weapons, while chainmail has DR 3/- against slashing attacks and DR 2/- against piercing attacks and a person can don or remove it as a move action (no 'don hastily' for chainmail).
I have not gone through all of the armor in PF, and I haven't gotten to Heavy armor yet, but this is what I've got so far.
What's your goal here? Is your frustration with the fact that PCs pick the same armor all the time in-universe, or is it with the fact that most armors are effectively "traps" and there are limited choices if you don't want to be sub-optimal?
Well it's a bit of both, I AM generally the type to try to put character first but my early D&D/Pathfinder experiences (which basically amounted to reading books and making hypothetical builds) has given me a tiny power gamer in the back of my head, tearing apart the little things that seem cool but suboptimal.
From a more Character Driven standpoint it seems annoying that literally every heavy armor character is wearing full plate by some level, literally every medium armor one is wearing breastplates, and.. Light Armor is basically the only one that has some variety with the whole "Higher than 5 dex mod means no chainmail shirt" thing but a lot still wear chain. (And the fact that a lot of flavorful combinations like Barbarians and Hide generally don't make much sense to go for)
From a Mechanical Standpoint I can't help but think both from a mechanical and 'historical' standpoint that.. For example, Gambeson (padded armor) generally would protect about the same as leather armor. Studded leather is just better than leather, but why do studs make it better? (Probably because it's actually based on Brigandine which is metal with a leather facing but that's a story for another day), Hide just seems to have no point since -1 AC for +10 movement speed seems fair for some (Barbarian for example) in exchange for being similarly priced...
Actually looking back I only just realized (Like no joke I literally just remembered this from you mentioning it) that I already have/had a solution in place for how to rebalance armors that basically does both of these solutions at once. Kirthfinder (which basically kinda does both, putting armor into categories rather than starting out chainmail from breastplates when they have the same AC, letting you refluff armors however you want whilst giving you a simple 3 level baseline per armor for mechanics). It's a Start, at least.
For instance, a gambeson (thick) has DR 3/- against bludgeoning attacks and arrows, bolts, darts, shuriken, thrown daggers, and other light piercing weapons, while chainmail has DR 3/- against slashing attacks and DR 2/- against piercing attacks and a person can don or remove it as a move action (no 'don hastily' for chainmail).
Interesting idea, perhaps give them each just a little general bonus on top of these new number bonuses to differentiate different armors.
Well, as was said, it's normal that some armors were better than others. No good way to really emulate their advantages, imo, and I don't really see the fun in trying.
Also, I use the suboptimal armor all the time for my NPCs. Splint mail knights ftw!
Like just to brainstorm some ideas...
I'm not going to say they have both of these, but just general ideas.
Gambeson and Chain Shirt: Quickest Change. Due to their nature as basically shirts or overcoats, one can don these armors as a move action.
Gambeson: Padded Protection: you gain 3/- DR against small piercing projectiles like arrows, bolts, throwing knives, and the like.
Chainmail Hauberk: Quick change. It is relatively simple to put on a chainmail hauberk, halve the time taken to don chainmail armor (2 minutes alone, 1 minute with help, 30 seconds (5 rounds) to don hastily.
Plate Armor: All or Nothing. gain DR 5 (note, possibly even more)/— against all attacks, but being Prone is considered being helpless for the sake of Coup De Grace attacks, and it takes a full round action to get up. (Similar to how for real full plate the best way to kill them is to get them on the ground and stab through the eyeholes)
The 1e PHB had a weapons v armour table that gave bonuses or penalties depending on the match up. Probably too detailed but could be a starting point.
There is already an armor that you can wear as a move action: Armored Coat. So I would instead half the time it takes to don.
Giving Full-Plate DR 5/- is pretty dumb for the purpose of making other armor more useful. It's also way more protection then it should be vs melee; blunt and piercing are the typical anti-plate weapons, due to how easy they can by pass the armor. Arrows on the other hand should be able to do much. So instead I would have DR 3/melee attacks and firearm and DR 3/piercing melee and firearm; with that Arrows suffer DR 6, slashing and blunt suffer DR 3, and piercing melee and firearms go right through. A modification can remove the firearm bypassing DR and add an extra +2 DR, at the cost of higher weight.
Plate armor wasn't hard to move around/stand up so making it a full action to stand up is just bad. Instead it would be better to give them a penalty the longer they are in battle. As well as a penalty for passing through difficult terrain.
As for prone, they can move easily even while prone. So full-round to stand up and helpless for coup-de-grace is just too much. A better thing might be to half the AC while prone; at worse make it so crits auto confirm. Do notice auto confirming a crit deals the same amount as a coup-de-grace, but it has no auto kill chance
Admittedly I was just kinda randomly throwing ideas around rather than making a lot of them super serious, and...
With the Full Action to stand up thing, it was basically trying to balance against the 5 DR and the idea that basically you get someone in full plate on the ground they're at a Grandiose disadvantage. and also the idea that once we restat armors all of them will be fairly useful anyway, but have their own unique abilities.
Also I totally forgot the armored coat was a thing, but assumed I was just kinda rolling armors together some anyway.
Yeah. Although I do still have the alt system in my back pocket. Though speaking of that alt system I ought to throw it into a few new eyes.
Would rolling various armor types into a single group work to have people use more different armor types? and how would these numbers look for that? (credit for these numbers goes to Kirth Gerson)
Edit: I think it would certainly fix the "Chainmail VS Breastplate VS Mountain Pattern" problem at least, but what about the other issues like people always going for the best AC no matter what?
Light Armor
Leather or “buff coat”, padded gambeson, arming doublet, etc.: +2 Armor | Max Dex Bonus +6 | Armor Check Penalty 0 | Arcane Spell Failure Chance 10% | Speed Adjustment 0
Studded Leather: +1 Armor | Max Dex Bonus +5 | Armor Check Penalty -1 | Arcane Spell Failure Chance 15% | Speed Adjustment 0
Chain Shirt, Ring Mail, Light Jack, etc..: +4 Armor | Max Dex Bonus +4 | Armor Check Penalty -2 | Arcane Spell Failure Chance 20% | Speed Adjustment 0
Medium Armor
Hide Armor: +4 Armor | Max Dex Bonus +4 | Armor Check Penalty -3 | Arcane Spell Failure Chance 20% | Speed Adjustment -5 feet
Scale bernie, Brigandine, Coat-of-plates, plated jack, do-maru, etc.: +5 Armor | Max Dex Bonus +3 | Armor Check Penalty -4 | Arcane Spell Failure Chance 25% | Speed Adjustment -5 feet
Chainmail, Breastplates, Lammelar armor: +6 Armor | Max Dex Bonus +2 | Armor Check Penalty -5 | Arcane Spell Failure Chance 30% | Speed Adjustment -5 feet
Heavy Armor
Full Laminar Armor (splint, banded, etc.): +7 Armor | Max Dex Bonus +2 | Armor Check Penalty -6 | Arcane Spell Failure Chance 35% | Speed Adjustment -10 feet
Plate Armor (Half or Full): +8 Armor | Max Dex Bonus +1 | Armor Check Penalty -7 | Arcane Spell Failure Chance 40% | Speed Adjustment -10 feet
You could start by making the better armours in each category more expensive so that there is a meaningful reason to pick something cheaper. In addition, scale Masterwork to the base value of the item: I use double the base cost +20gp for armour. So masterwork full plate gets properly expensive (and weapons are x20 + 50gp, so an MW dagger is cheapish but an MW greatsword is very expensive).
Padded-as-gambeson should have meaningful (+3? +4?) protection, but it's cumbersome (significantly lower the max dex, increase ACP and ASF) and very heavy if it gets wet. It's not just a puffer jacket, after all.
You could do the same with the other cheaper armours: worse penalties but better AC. So they're good for staying alive, but not good for climbing. After all, perhaps they're cheap because they're not custom-made and don't fit well.
I consider Studded to be leather with extra hardened pads (shoulders, knees, chest) and metal strips in appropriate places (forearms, shins, collar, etc), rather than "studs".
You could start by making the better armours in each category more expensive so that there is a meaningful reason to pick something cheaper. In addition, scale Masterwork to the base value of the item: I use double the base cost +20gp for armour. So masterwork full plate gets properly expensive (and weapons are x20 + 50gp, so an MW dagger is cheapish but an MW greatsword is very expensive).
This is a great way to ensure your players never want to play a heavy armor character ever again. You're massively incentivizing dex builds, who have to spend much less on their gear in addition to having superior AC in all situations rather than just some of them.
I don't think the armor is as unbalanced as the OP believes. Comparing baseline, non-magic armor with a specific and expensive mid-game option obviously the latter is going to come out ahead; most of the starter armors are about even as long as you assume the character fills out the dex cap - light armors come out to +8 AC, medium armors come out to +9. There are fewer good options with heavy armor but the O-yoroi and Tatami-do meet the traditional Full Plate at +10 AC.
Celestial Armor isn't even that obvious of a choice, only if you're maxing out your dexterity. A character who never goes beyond 16 dex will have a higher AC in breastplate.
If there's a problem here it's that nobody is going to start a game with a dexterity higher than 18, and very few people in medium/heavy armor are going to buy more than the minimum necessary for dexterity. That's a very different issue from armors being too weak or too strong.
This is a great way to ensure your players never want to play a heavy armor character ever again. You're massively incentivizing dex builds, who have to spend much less on their gear in addition to having superior AC in all situations rather than just some of them.I don't think the armor is as unbalanced as the OP believes. Comparing baseline, non-magic armor with a specific and expensive mid-game option obviously the latter is going to come out ahead; most of the starter armors are about even as long as you assume the character fills out the dex cap - light armors come out to +8 AC, medium armors come out to +9. There are fewer good options with heavy armor but the O-yoroi and Tatami-do meet the traditional Full Plate at +10 AC.
Celestial Armor isn't even that obvious of a choice, only if you're maxing out your dexterity. A character who never goes beyond 16 dex will have a higher AC in breastplate.
If there's a problem here it's that nobody is going to start a game with a dexterity higher than 18, and very few people in medium/heavy armor are going to buy more than the minimum necessary for dexterity. That's a very different issue from armors being too weak or too strong.
1: I assumed he more meant it as a way to increase use of lower armor within a given category, though it does have its issues, like... It would make some sense that Masterwork Hide is less expensive than a Masterwork Breastplate overall. Though it has flaws obviously.
2:My point on rebalancing armors was less about thinking some armors are too bad or too good, but more the fact that I feel like if I want to wear scale mail then I should be able to without worrying that I'm somehow behind curve. Also the fact that a few armors are better even if they have the same AC number.
Chainmail has +6 +2 -5 30%
Steel lamellar has +6 +3 -5 25%
Mountain Pattern has +6 +3 -4 30%
Breastplate has +6 +3 -4 25%
This means that for the same price lamellar is just better than chainmail, and because money tends to be no object in pathfinder eventually, Mountain Pattern and Breastplates are just plain better than those. (and granted spell failure chance only matters for a small number of people but gishes can't use mountain pattern as easily)
Or looking in Heavy Armor
Splint Mail: +7 +0 -7 (+7 max AC)
Banded Mail +7 +1 -6 (+8 max AC)
Half Plate: +8 +0 -7 (and agile half plate doesn't change the +0 dex mod) (+8 max AC)
Full Plate +9 +1 -6 (Max 10 AC)
And Stoneplate is just the same as full plate but more expensive.
Banded mail is literally better than splint mail for only a 50 GP difference, meaning almost literally no one would wear splint willingly (I say willingly because if it's all you have it's all you have, but you won't see a 20th level fighter in splint.), and Full Plate has a Higher dex modifier than half plate (even though half plate seems like it would be the armor more fit for dodging attacks since it's the one heavy armor that doesn't wrap your legs in steel). So eventually all the medium armor people will wear breastplates, all the heavy armor people will wear full plate (or stone plate if they're feeling particularly dwarfish).
I don't necessarily think it's so massively imbalanced, but I feel that armors ought to all fill a niche so that no matter what level of play you're at you'll choose it.
3: Touche on the Celestial Armor bit, I more meant calling it obvious that basically any dex build is going to find it to be generally better, since it's the one medium armor suit you don't need to actually proficient with medium armor to use, and the same person that was going for Leather or something of the sort in order to make more use of their dexterity is going to get a higher modifier from using this armor than anything else, meaning most archers and rogues will go for it. (Although looking at the SRD it doesn't mention the ability to wear it without having medium armor proficiency, was that errata'd out? or is that a different armor I'm thinking of.)
Basically it's less thinking that armor needs a complete and total retooling as much as I think that there shouldn't really be "Early Game" "Mid Game" and "Late Game" Armors among the mundane armors in terms of one being literally better. Perhaps I just have the ghost of a long dead power gamer trapped in the back of my mind or something but I can't help but be annoyed at the prospect that comparing the armors to each other in the same category that there's one that's just better than the others, meaning that you're just better off in survivability for choosing one over the other.