My party is in a corridor just outside of a room with 2 guards. One of our group moves forward to attempt to bluff their way past the guards. The guards are only aware of that person, but the rest of us are still hidden. One of the guards doesn't buy the bluff and attacks, the other sounds the alarm. The rest of the group is still unknown to the guards.
We rolled initiative and order we got was: Guard 1, A, Guard 2, B (the one who attempted to bluff but got attacked instead because the roll was that bad), C, D, E, F.
There is a dispute about how this should actually work.
1) There are no surprise rounds for anyone since B got attacked.
2) Surprise rounds for A, C, D, E, and F before Guard 1's attack (I don't know how that's going to work retroactively).
3) Surprise rounds for A, C, D, E, and F right after Guard 1's attack, and then normal combat. (So the round would go: ACDEF1A2BCDEF)
4) Something else instead?
By strict RAW, the answer is 2. The surprise round occurs before the first regular round of combat, and since the guard is unaware of the other player characters they get a surprise round against him. However, as you point out this doesn't make sense since the guard is the one initiating combat and this would make the other character's responses retroactive to his own action. I would say that 1 is the most sensible ruling as a result; the guard won initiative and can act before your hidden allies.
Since one of the people who are surprised has already gone the surprise round is over. Your party gave up the surprise round in order to let person bluffing have a chance to deal with the guards. Basically once a combat starts you cannot get a retroactive surprise round.
What should have happened is that when the guard went to attack the hidden party members should have gotten perception roll to notice it especially if he had to draw a weapon. If they noticed it then they could have acted. At that point the guards should get a perception roll to notice them. If the guards fail the perception roll you get a surprise round. The character making the bluff roll also needs to make a perception roll to act in the surprise round. While he is aware of everyone he may not be aware that things have gotten out of hand.
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By strict RAW, the answer is 2. The surprise round occurs before the first regular round of combat, and since the guard is unaware of the other player characters they get a surprise round against him. However, as you point out this doesn't make sense since the guard is the one initiating combat and this would make the other character's responses retroactive to his own action. I would say that 1 is the most sensible ruling as a result; the guard won initiative and can act before your hidden allies.
No it makes perfect since.
The party is waiting, listening (or watching) for how things are happening. They are prepared to intervene if things go south. They notice the guard about to act and themselves take action, intercepting the guards actions.
Everyone involved should get a perception or sense motive check to notice combat is about start. If they succeed the get to act in the surprise round.
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4)
Guard 1 is the one who triggered combat. He is not aware of A, C, D, E, or F (nor is guard 2). Both guards are aware of B. All of the PCs are aware of their opponents.
The surprise rules have some weird edge-cases and this is definitely one of them, but Guard 1 and Guard 2 are not "aware of their opponents", and are the only characters involved who are not, and thus are the characters who don't get to act in the surprise round.
All 6 PCs get to act in the surprise round. Neither guard does.
Then round 1 starts.
If you need help to picture how this works:
Adam, Claire, David, Erin and Frank have hung back while Brian confidently strides into the room with the guards. He tries to blag it, but one of the guards says "hey, no, that's a load of old cobblers, mate" and heaves back his halberd, preparing to swing.
Combat starts.
Surprise round, Adam, Brian, Claire, David, Erin, and Frank can take a standard or move action. Since all except Brian are out of sight this is probably only a move of some sort, or maybe a buff spell. Brian might have quick draw and can get his sword out and stab Guard 1 at this point.
Yes, this can result in the death of the Guard before he takes his first action. So what? He started it.
Round 1 Begins. If Guard 1 survived, he gets to act now, since he has the highest initiative.
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Yep, Chemlak gave a more complete example of what I was envisioning.
Thanks.
The party is waiting, listening (or watching) for how things are happening. They are prepared to intervene if things go south. They notice the guard about to act and themselves take action, intercepting the guards actions.
That's regular initiative, not surprise. Both sides wish to act first, and initiative decides who takes precedence. Surprise is different in that one side isn't even trying to act because they are as-yet unaware of the threat. This is just isn't true in the OP's case; the guard may be unaware of some of the PC's, but he's initiating combat and should be able to act accordingly.
No it makes perfect since.
It really doesn't.
To illustrate why, imagine there was a third guard taking a nap in the corner out of sight of the rest of the party. Because the player characters are unaware of the snoozing guard they are now also surprised and cannot act on the surprise round. This reveals just how silly the surprise rules can be if you apply them too rigidly, since the outcome can be changed by factors that should have no bearing on it.
The fact in this case is that the guard is the one initiating combat, and therefore in my view he cannot possibly be surprised by combat. If the hidden PC's wanted a surprise round, they would have needed to have initiated combat before the guard did. By waiting until he was poised to act they lost the advantage of surprise and the battle should be resolved by regular initiative.
4
There is no surprise round.
The guard should not get a free attack.
you do not need to be aware of all of your opponents to act in combat, just one. (this is what makes sneaking with a group really. really hard)
The Guards are quite aware that this is NOT a surprise inspection of the ladies room (or whatever your face flubbed the bluff on)
Unless the guards try to bluff him back (certainly mister Inspector Booday Inspector, my assistant here will just go get the guards..erm. I mean the key for you. Yes the key. definitely not the guards)
he knows that they know that the jig is up. After that its just who's fastest on the draw.
The surprise round should only exist for those who were aware of the combat that was about to ensue. In my opinion, the entire party that was hidden should not get a surprise round simply because they were not anticipating the failed results of the bluff attempt.
In my opinion, the only person who should get a surprise round action is the guard who attacked first. The guard who sounded the alarm would not receive a surprise round because he's reacting to the guard who swung first.
My 2c.
In my opinion, the only person who should get a surprise round action is the guard who attacked first.
Initiating combat does not give you a surprise round, unless you have the ability to bluff someone into thinking you're not a threat.
In my opinion, the only person who should get a surprise round action is the guard who attacked first.Initiating combat does not give you a surprise round, unless you have the ability to bluff someone into thinking you're not a threat.
In general, yes I agree. However, the only person who knew that combat was about to start would be the guard who swung first.
Every person in the party anticipated combat, and they were ready just in case the Bluff failed or succeeded.
One thing that needs to be taken into account, does the rest of the party have a clear view of what is going on in the room? The original post states that the rest party is hidden. If they do not have clear sight of the people involved in the combat how can they react to what goes on?
If the rest of the party is standing behind the wall next to the door with no line of sight to the encounter are they even part of the encounter yet? They may be aware of that the guards are there, but unable to perceive what is going on. If that is the case they should not get a surprise round.
If the party gets a surprise round this sets a bad precedent. Now the players can guarantee a surprise round by having one of the characters hide. No matter what happens the whole party will be able to act before their opponents. This could be what we have been missing about the rogue for years. Now every party will want stealth focused rogue. Just have the rogue hiding around the corner in every encounter to grant the party a surprise round.
The party is waiting, listening (or watching) for how things are happening. They are prepared to intervene if things go south. They notice the guard about to act and themselves take action, intercepting the guards actions.That's regular initiative, not surprise. Both sides wish to act first, and initiative decides who takes precedence. Surprise is different in that one side isn't even trying to act because they are as-yet unaware of the threat. This is just isn't true in the OP's case; the guard may be unaware of some of the PC's, but he's initiating combat and should be able to act accordingly.
No it makes perfect since.
It really doesn't.
To illustrate why, imagine there was a third guard taking a nap in the corner out of sight of the rest of the party. Because the player characters are unaware of the snoozing guard they are now also surprised and cannot act on the surprise round. This reveals just how silly the surprise rules can be if you apply them too rigidly, since the outcome can be changed by factors that should have no bearing on it.
The fact in this case is that the guard is the one initiating combat, and therefore in my view he cannot possibly be surprised by combat. If the hidden PC's wanted a surprise round, they would have needed to have initiated combat before the guard did. By waiting until he was poised to act they lost the advantage of surprise and the battle should be resolved by regular initiative.
I strongly disagree. Even thought the guard may be the one attempting to initiate combat, the other PCs might be faster. This requires them to make either perception or sense motive checks (GM discretion) and then roll higher initiative. Everyone who makes the skill check successfully gets to act in the surprise round, if no one fails then there is no surprise round because no one is unaware and you go in normal initiative order.
By strict RAW, the answer is 2. The surprise round occurs before the first regular round of combat, and since the guard is unaware of the other player characters they get a surprise round against him. However, as you point out this doesn't make sense since the guard is the one initiating combat and this would make the other character's responses retroactive to his own action. I would say that 1 is the most sensible ruling as a result; the guard won initiative and can act before your hidden allies.
No, it's 4.
The important thing to realize is that the guard is trying to initiate combat. Unless, for some reason, he should have surprised everyone else, whether or not he actually initiates combat or gets outdrawn depends on the initiative roll. He doesn't auto-win initiative rolls because he was the first character to declare an attack.Meanwhile, there is a potential ambush in the wings that could intervene depending on their own disposition and ability to observe the situation. If they can see what's going on, and the guards have already failed their checks to perceive them, they are in a position to get a surprise round on the guards should they choose to try to do so (and it would just be a partial action per the surprise rules).
Nothing here is actually retroactive - it's just intentions being declared whenever there's a conflict. To play it all out fairly, the GM should be relying on initiative and surprise rules to determine how they play out and when people actually get to go. That's what these rules are for.
If the party gets a surprise round this sets a bad precedent. Now the players can guarantee a surprise round by having one of the characters hide. No matter what happens the whole party will be able to act before their opponents. This could be what we have been missing about the rogue for years. Now every party will want stealth focused rogue. Just have the rogue hiding around the corner in every encounter to grant the party a surprise round.
There's no guarantee - the NPCs might succeed at noticing the hidden rogue and that foils the surprise. And even if they did have a rogue successfully hiding and willing to try to get the drop on creatures the other PCs openly interact with, that wouldn't apply to the rest of the party... just the hidden rogue.
I might say 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 depending on what the players said their characters were going to do.
"If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin."
So, it appears that the guards are not aware of the rest of the party waiting to pounce or for their friend's bluff to work. I think that means that there is a surprise round.
If the party or some of the members said "we are readying an action to strike, cast, charge, whatever, if the guards attack our friend" then I would be okay with their actions interrupting the guard's attack. However, there is some debate as to whether or not an action can be readied outside of combat. I tend to use a loose translation of combat to include almost any encounter the PC's may have, including social ones, traps, etc.
In the case of a readied action it would be party members go, then the guard's action, then regular initiative. The reason I would still give the guard the right to go is that his action is the triggering action for the readied actions so it needs to occur (unless of course he is dead or incapacitated by the party prior to his action being able to be performed).
If there was no readied action(s), I would have the guard go, then proceed with a surprise round, and then enter the first normal round of combat as the initiative rolls direct.
That may not be in agreement with everyone, but I think it is in agreement to the rules, or at least my interpretation of them, and that is how I would rule on the subject at my table for what it is worth.
Thanks!
you do not need to be aware of all of your opponents to act in combat, just one.
This is also too restrictive. If we flip around the situation and had the hidden party members attack the guard before the failed bluff check then they should be able to get a surprise round in that case. However, the guard is aware of the one party member in front of him and thus wouldn't be surprised. Since he won initiative he gets to go first... while he's still unaware of anyone taking hostile actions or that combat has commenced. This is exactly the situation that surprise rounds are meant to avoid.
I strongly disagree. Even thought the guard may be the one attempting to initiate combat, the other PCs might be faster. This requires them to make either perception or sense motive checks (GM discretion) and then roll higher initiative.
What you're describing there is initiative. Surprise doesn't enter into it, because the guard is already acting. Because the players waited until the guard was attacking in order to act they've lost the advantage of surprise and it comes down to a strict initiative test.
There's an argument to be made that perception or sense motive or even other skills should factor into initiative, but the fact remains that initiative checks are how we determine who is faster when all sides are initiating combat. The guard won initiative in this case, therefor the players were not faster.
The important thing to realize is that the guard is trying to initiate combat.
While I agree with you in from a logical perspective and would certainly rule that way, from a strict "rules as written" analysis being the person trying to initiate combat has no bearing on surprise rounds. All that matters is awareness.
Here is part of the rules for Surprise in the Core Rule Book:
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
So anytime someone is not aware of all opponents, a surprise round can be appropriate. As noted by the next rule, it can be a case where only some people on one side need to be unaware to be surprised.
In our case, all of the PCs were aware of the enemies (though presumably don't know their exact location) and the enemies are aware of only one of the PCs. And it goes on to say that using skill checks can be appropriate to determine who is aware for the purposes of participating in the surprise round.
In my opinion it's appropriate to require a perception check from the guards, and a perception and/or sense motive check for the PCs to anticipate that the guards are about to attack.
Those who succeed get to act. And the next rules establish that you use initiative order.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
If the guards are not aware of the other PCs, simply put they don't get to act in the surprise round. Since they have the highest initiative they do get to go first in regular combat though.
Since we're doing thought experiments:
1. How would you adjudicate this situation?
• 10 observed PCs (or allied NPCs)
• 10 guards with crappy Perception
2. How would you adjudicate this situation?
• 9 observed PCs (or allied NPCs)
• 1 hidden PC (or allied NPC) with excellent Stealth
• 10 guards with crappy Perception
Assume that the Stealth-to-Perception disparity is sufficient that the guards cannot succeed at their Perception checks to spot the hidden PC.
If I understand your scenarios correctly
Situation 1 - 10 PCs who the guards are aware of, despite having poor perception.
There is no surprise round. As far as I can tell, everyone is aware of everyone.
Situation 2 - There are 9 PCs who the guards are aware of, and 1 PC who the guards aren't aware of. Regardless of whether or not the hidden PC or the guards decide to try to initiate combat, it starts checks. If the guard tries to initiate then I would make the PCs who the guards are aware of make sense motive checks to act in the surprise round. I would make the hidden PC make a perception check to participate. The guards would need to make perception checks (which they would fail), or I might let them make sense motive checks against the known PCs to have "spidey sense" moment that something isn't right - if the PCs have a plan for one person to try to surprise the guards. If the hidden person was an ally who the PCs were unaware of and didn't plan to try to surprise the guards then they would also need perception checks against the hidden "ally" to act.
Those who succeed on the check get to act in the surprise round, those who don't make the DC don't get to act. Order is determined by initiative order.
The important thing to realize is that the guard is trying to initiate combat.While I agree with you in from a logical perspective and would certainly rule that way, from a strict "rules as written" analysis being the person trying to initiate combat has no bearing on surprise rounds. All that matters is awareness.
Indeed, being the person trying to initiate combat may not have bearing on surprise - which is why the guard can still be surprised by PCs he isn't aware of even though he is trying to start the fight - assuming those PCs are in a position and mood to do something surprising (which is why I mentioned their disposition).
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Claxon has it right. The situation went from non-combat to combat by the actions of one creature. Some being hidden has no influence on this. This is what happens:
One Guard declares an attack on someone not in combat or waiting for the attack.
This triggers the surprise round.
Make a check (likely perception) to determine who is sufficiently aware to act during this surprise round.
Determine initiative.
Process the surprise round in initiative order, only allowing aware creatures to act.
Surprise round is over.
Start regular combat.
Note that in the surprise round, you only get a standard, not a full round, so moving into position won't let you attack unless it is a charge.
/cevah